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[yaatri]

Originally Posted by bialterminal

good question. only AI figures in the list on star alliance website - http://www.staralliance.com/en/about...mber-airlines/ under the coming soon section. 9w isn't mentioned.

I think, 9W is playing coy, or has grand ambitions of going it alone like EK. Jet Airways code-shares, and cooperates with airlines all three alliances.
IT, although, has announced it's joining Oneworld still cooperates with Skyteam airlines.
If 9W is going to compete with AI and IT, either it will have to go alone or partner with Skyteam. I am sure, Skyteam will try its level best to snag it. The only reason for Oneworld and Star Alliance to invite and include 9W would be to deny Skyteam an airline from India. But would AI or IT have a say in whether to allow 9W into their respective alliances? On the other hand, India is too important a market for any alliance to not partner with a major airline from India.
Naresh Goyal might have a preference for Star Alliance as he is smitten with SQ.
Do you have a dog in the race? In other words, do you have a choice as to which alliance 9W should join?

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by yaatri

Do you have a dog in the race? In other words, do you have a choice as to which alliance 9W should join?

Not really, but from a feed perspective in USA, Star may perhaps be a better choice for 9W because of more number of strong hubs like IAD,IAH,EWR,CLT,DEN,SFO,ORD & LAX(pretty much the entire US borken up into sections are accessible from these hubs with good frequencies). Skyteam doesn't look that good - ATL,DTW,JFK,SLC & MSP (SLC and MSP don't seem to be in the same league as the other big boys like ORD,IAH etc though) with ATL,DTW and JFK being the only 3 noteworthy hubs worth their salt that can provide a decent feed to any Indian airline joining the alliance.

[yaatri]

Originally Posted by bialterminal

Not really, but from a feed perspective in USA, Star may perhaps be a better choice for 9W because of more number of strong hubs like IAD,IAH,EWR,CLT,DEN,SFO,ORD & LAX(pretty much the entire US borken up into sections are accessible from these hubs with good frequencies). Skyteam doesn't look that good - ATL,DTW,JFK,SLC & MSP (SLC and MSP don't seem to be in the same league as the other big boys like ORD,IAH etc though) with ATL,DTW and JFK being the only 3 noteworthy hubs worth their salt that can provide a decent feed to any Indian airline joining the alliance.

You raise good points. But your analysis is a bit flawed. ORD and IAH are big boys, but not bigger than ATL, nor does 9W fly to ORD or IAH.

A good hub in the U.S. that can feed traffic to and from all over the U.S. is useful. A hub is useful to 9W only if 9W flies there or chooses to fly there. The number of departures, (also arrivals), not the number of passengers that's relevant to feeding traffic to and from a hub. Top five airports in the U.S. by departures, are ATL, ORD, DEN, DFW, and IAH,. The next five airports are CLT, LAX, PHL, MSP and DTW. The other hubs such as IAD, EWR SFO SLC etc are minor. Skyteam has 3 of the top ten airports, Star Alliance has ORD, DEN, IAH, LAX , CLT and PHL, while DFW belongs to One World. Star Alliance does have six of the top ten airports, which might make one conclude that Star Alliance could serve 9W better. But if 9W doesn't fly to all of those hubs, their existence makes little difference to 9W. What SkyTeam lacks is a good hub on the west coast. Star Alliance does have an edge over SkyTeam.
Curently, 9W serves only one destination in the U.S. and that destination ranks 12th in terms of departures. So the number of hubs is not of any significance as very few people want two or more connections from their international gateway. Whether the other hubs will be of any significance, depends on whether 9W chooses any of those as its international gateway, otherwise, they are irrelevant.
There are other factors also, such as, benefits of loyalty programmes and mileage earning opportunities . Jet Airways should be aware of what it's frequent fliers value. SkyTeam gives unlimited upgrades on domestic flights within the 48 contiguous states and Alaska, which Star Alliance does not. Then there is the issue of competition with other Star Alliance's Indian member.
So, in my opinion although there is a good case for Star, it's not given that Star is the best choice for 9W.
We have to wait and see what happens. For a while, it looked like JAL would join Skyteam. Even their executives felt that Skyteam was a better fit for them. But they chose to join Oneworld. So who knows what's going to happen. I am in Skyteam, and might benefit from 9W joining it on SIN/BKK-DEL route, for which there is no Skyteam connection. I can still redeem miles on 9W, so it's not a big issue for me either.

[bonoslack7]

The 1960s, and to some extent the 1970s, were the age of innocence for our industry in India. Aviation as a business was less cut-throat, more a luxury, almost like a one-time experience to be cherished; definitely not a common man's choice of travel, the Great Indian Railways had then ruled the roost. Our world has since moved on. Our conflicts, our economics of operations and our demographic pressures have multiplied exponentially, giving any past semblance of innocence a harsh edge or, in more relevant terms, giving rise for the need of a serious business reality check.

Aviation today is the catalyst of our economy and of economies worldwide, an icon no longer of luxury but a significant logistical necessity in the field of transport of men and material. Lost innocence has sadly also included perceived absence of clear safety, so that airlines now have also become soft targets for terrorists, giving impetus to a vast global security business never before seen on our planet. If there were one single "worse" aspect of the changes that have taken place in civil aviation, it is this loss of the carefree element in air travel, where the only concerns once were air turbulence and nausea in unpressurised aircraft cabins.

Today's concerns have soared beyond mere cloud formations in the flight paths of aircraft. Airline managements have to be alert as much to the grim potential of damage and destruction to life and equipment from fundamentalist acts or deranged people as to the recurring red ink in their balance sheets.

The past decade has witnessed evolutionary changes sweeping across the face of civil aviation worldwide. While technology has long become the driver of change, newer factors have emerged. Imperatives of safety, security, environmental protection, fluctuations in the price of fuel, international conflicts, industrial unrest and, alarmingly, increasing incidences of disease and global pandemics have affected the aviation industry. I dare say we are likely to witness their continuing effects going forward, differing only in their degree of relevance from time to time.

But this is also an industry with equally dramatic recovery times; we slump into troughs only to bounce back rapidly thanks to global imperatives of travel, commerce and trade, which, in due course, prevail over the hurdles of wars, epidemics, the oil shock, cost spikes, 9/11, economic crises and their like.

Moreover, the better elements of progress are also concomitant with change. These have, and will continue to, alter the contours of our industry in the future. I believe these changes are here to stay and will evolve generically with the growth of knowledge.

The most obvious changes are those brought about by advances in aviation technology embracing the disciplines of avionics, electronics, metallurgy, food technology and information technology, including the current ground-breaking developments in in-flight entertainment technology among others.

The 1960s and 1970s saw the replacement of the vintage, non-pressurised craft such as the Douglas Dakota, the de Havilland Comet, the Sud Aviation Caravelle and the Vickers Viscount by the faster, larger products of Boeing, starting with that old workhorse, the 707, McDonnell Douglas with its MD-11s, Fokker with its F-27s, the Russian Illyushins, Topolevs and, among later arrivals, the Airbus fleet with fly-by-wire technology.

At one end of the equipment spectrum were the smaller short-haul Fokkers criss-crossing across Europe and in the Far East. At the other end came the transatlantic Boeing 747 Jumbos, MD-11s, the supersonic Concorde and the Airbus products, with their enhanced capacity, range, technology, multiple-class passenger configurations and increased freight capacity, in versions of passenger-specific aircraft, combis and freighters.

In between these and the supersonic travel of the future are the mega A380s and the 787, Boeing's environmentally friendly, fuel-efficient Dreamliner. These aircraft are not only more fuel-efficient but, thanks to the change in framework composition of the alloys that are used, tougher and lighter than any of the previous airframes.

Aircraft design, lighting, interiors and cuisine are an industry apart. From mood lighting, to exclusively appointed first-class cabins, to flatbeds that are now standard business-class equipment on all respectable carriers, to on-board chefs to pay-as-you-eat: the changes are here to stay and are breaking moulds of progress each year. We have seen the emergence of low-cost carriers for short-haul sectors, with no frills.

At the other end, there are all-business jets, both private and public, to provide standard luxury levels in the sky. I foresee the business jet and the helicopter segments as being a significant part of the growth of our industry, which will continue to galvanise governments to provide compatible infrastructure - witness the frenetic airport building/restructuring activity of the past five years in India.

We have seen technology eliminating paper tickets all over the world, the evolution of superior reservation systems that allow for processing bookings, exercising seat and meal choices and printing out a boarding pass at the click of a buttons, either at home or on mobile phones.

Reservation control is such a precise science, dissecting aircraft cabins into marketable classes, enabling advance bookings at unimaginably low prices with reduced inventory, leading to fare escalations closer to the date of travel. Track and tracing equipment for freight is so precise as to provide information on freight pathways in real time. Similarly, passenger baggage-track technology through radio frequency identification technology is more or less the norm with airlines and at airports worldwide.

Clearly, the story of the future is innovation - innovation to please the customer at the lowest cost. In the face of expensive fuel, the imperative to be lean will be overriding. There will, and must be, continuous research on alternative fuels. Until then, alliances will pool their resources to buy equipment and supplies based on economies of scale.

Mergers and acquisitions are running their course and will continue on this path, until economic balance and viability are reached. Ours is a high-cost, high-maintenance, labour-intensive industry with its attendant risks and uncertainties.

The past five years may arguably have been the worst period in modern aviation history. The airlines that will survive in the years to come will be ones with a sharp eye for the top and bottom lines and the ones that innovative - to what degree only time will tell; today it is a moot point whether to scorn the concept of stand-up short-haul seats or see them as another viable innovation.

In the end, it all boils down to asking the simple question: what does the customer want? The answers are likely to be safety, security, efficiency, affordability and comfort. Only the latter will vary in degree. The first four will demand standard applications to provide the highest degree of customer satisfaction. Only then will the red ink slowly start to fade and brighter, blacker bottom lines emerge.

The next 25 years of our industry? They will go in the blink of an eyelid. We have to move fast today, to collectively ensure that the elements of our business are realistically addressed and lead not just our customers laughing to the bank, but bring smiles to our faces too.

[sidney_jec]

AF A380 clips tail of another airplane at JFK

[yaatri]

So what's the latest from the grape vine or your crystal ball?
Which alliance is 9W likely to join?

Govt of India has made it clear that it does not want two Indian carriers to join the same alliance. They will oppose 9W's entry into *alliance.

Should 9W go it alone? Will it join Skyteam or will it, like EK, stay a spinster. Mind you, 9W is no EK in terms of resources, specifically, access to money.

[p2p4]

IT (Kingfisher) is already in Oneworld, so highly unlikely any other Indian carrier would go 1World.

As for Star Alliance - if Air India (puke) does not qualify for the alliance due to administrative delays in submission of papers, then other Indian private airlines may see a golden opportunity with Star-All.

Cheers
p2p4

Originally Posted by yaatri

So what's the latest from the grape wine or your crystal ball?
Which alliance is 9W likely to join?

Govt of India has made it clear that it does not want two Indian carrers to join the same alliance. They will oppose 9W's entry into *alliance.

Should 9W go it alone? Will it join Skyteam or will it, like EK, stay a spinster. Mind you, 9W is no EK in terms of resources, specifically, access to money.

[Vicvin86]

[yaatri]

Originally Posted by p2p4

IT (Kingfisher) is already in Oneworld, so highly unlikely any other Indian carrier would go 1World.

As for Star Alliance - if Air India (puke) does not qualify for the alliance due to administrative delays in submission of papers, then other Indian private airlines may see a golden opportunity with Star-All.

Cheers
p2p4

Interesting comment. I found Air India to be quite pleasant. AI is ou, at least for now. What Star Alliance really wants is Jet Airways. It seems, it, mainly LH, was just going through with the motions of accepting/supporting AI to get concessions and get to Jet Airways. It would tolerate AI, as long as it gets Jet Airways.

[p2p4]

Yaatri-ji,

I am (or was) one of the very few who gave credit where it is due and I was never ashamed of praising Air India until last year.

Prior to that I have flown with them from Singapore - Mumbai (where, in one of my posts I wrote accolades about their service). Prior to that , I have flown HK-Mumbai-HK , Mumbai-Nairobi-Mumbai and Bangkok-Mum-Bangkok.

TO a whole lot of people, good service = good looking stewardesses. That is not my mantra ! As long as I get served without me making too much of fuss, half the battle is won no matter what age the stewardess is, or how immobile she or he might be due to his//her overweightedness. As long as I get good ground service, food, comfortable seats, good music, I am a happy camper, all else can go to hell (in the air).

My deep resentment about Air India came about on 3 occasions after my last Singapore-Mum- Flight. My parents being in their senior citizen years, chose to fly due to the availability of the cheaper fare - compared to 9w / IT. TO them, as to me, mantra is same. Travel from point A to B, get served reasonably well, arrive safe and be home.

Not so ! On the most recent trip, they were told that the HK-Mumbai flight was cancelled (on the day they were to depart). No reasons were given, no updates given, no talk of compensation, no regret shown, nor any sense of empathy. My parents were lucky as they were to fly out of HK and if the flight was cancelled, they could stay with us . But not so with the other passengers. Many were left to fend for themselves .

After 26 hours of the cancellation they were informed that another flight is available and they would be accomodated on it ! They did leave but the experience further dwindled into another saga of dissatisfaction. On arrival in Mumbai, their (and many other pax) luggage went missing. Turned out that all the luggage was not loaded into the flight at all !!!! TAKE THAT !!

On top of that, they (and many other passengers) were subject to a 'talk down' rude way of communication and a to hell with you attitude. They got their luggage 3 days later no doubt but the inconvenience of it has left not only them but me (a balanced and just person when it came ot AI's service) totally irate and in a state of detestation with Air India.

Further to that, there were reports of other cancellations around the world and one such case was that of Delhi, where a flight cancellation had no takers from Air India to reach out to passengers and inform daily updates if any.

It seems nowadays AI needs someone to whip its arse to get a reply or inform their pax on what is happening for a flight with 'episode'

Now it is true that out of thousand flights of Air India, incidences like these do not happen everyday but any other airline would have done something more humane, more sympathetically right !

And with the current bleeding state of affairs for AI, I'd rather the govt pulls the plug off ! Enough is enough . How many turnaround plans did they have to get things right? To my knowledge at least 3 as far as I remember. What's the use !?!?!

Originally Posted by yaatri

Interesting comment. I found Air India to be quite pleasant. AI is ou, at least for now. What Star Alliance really wants is Jet Airways. It seems, it, mainly LH, was just going through with the motions of accepting/supporting AI to get concessions and get to Jet Airways. It would tolerate AI, as long as it gets Jet Airways.

[niknak]

Dude do yourself a favor... just don't fly Air India. I've read about so many incidences of cancellations and rude employees!

I would rather pay $200 more and fly a decent airline than fly Air India and have my plans completely ruined

[p2p4]

That's exactly what I have done since March this year !

Originally Posted by niknak

Dude do yourself a favor... just don't fly Air India. I've read about so many incidences of cancellations and rude employees!

I would rather pay $200 more and fly a decent airline than fly Air India and have my plans completely ruined

[niknak]

I went on a 7 hour fully loaded test flight last Sunday on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. It is truly a phenomenal plane. Usually by 5 hours, I'm tired, but even after this 7 hour flight I felt great.

The windows, the LEDs, everything is just fantastic.

[p2p4]

WITNOF you working for Boeing dude?

Originally Posted by niknak

I went on a 7 hour fully loaded test flight last Sunday on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. It is truly a phenomenal plane. Usually by 5 hours, I'm tired, but even after this 7 hour flight I felt great.

The windows, the LEDs, everything is just fantastic.

[niknak]

Originally Posted by p2p4

WITNOF you working for Boeing dude?

Yup. I posted some pics earlier. Will post some more.

[p2p4]

Originally Posted by niknak

Yup. I posted some pics earlier. Will post some more.

Congrats dude ! Glad to have a fella from SSCI in Boeing ! (Or a fella from Boeing in SSCI .. vice versa)

[Madurai]

Originally Posted by niknak

Yup. I posted some pics earlier. Will post some more.

Wonderful pictures. Since you are working there, you must be having access to the vantage points to take those pictures. But, do you think general public can take pictures from outside like these?

[yalla_vamsi]

@niknak

Thanks for sharing the pics.

[niknak]

Originally Posted by Madurai

Wonderful pictures. Since you are working there, you must be having access to the vantage points to take those pictures. But, do you think general public can take pictures from outside like these?

So Boeing operates a Future of Flight Museum in which you can see all the stuff I posted in the pics. You can also see the runway and all of Boeings planes and the Boeing Factory from their Rooftop Gallery.

Boeing also allows the general public to do a tour of the factory, where you can see the planes being built. Of course you can't go onto the factory floor or into any of the planes. But the tour takes you into the factory viewing points and the guides explain everything very well.

[Madurai]

Originally Posted by niknak

So Boeing operates a Future of Flight Museum in which you can see all the stuff I posted in the pics. You can also see the runway and all of Boeings planes and the Boeing Factory from their Rooftop Gallery.

Boeing also allows the general public to do a tour of the factory, where you can see the planes being built. Of course you can't go onto the factory floor or into any of the planes. But the tour takes you into the factory viewing points and the guides explain everything very well.

Thanks for the information. But, I thought they don't allow cameras during the factory tour. Please clarify this. Thanks in advance.