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Old October 30th, 2009, 10:25 AM   #1
cna
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The Roman Influence all over the world?

I wonder if any copies can beat the original. Some Romans might say that those copies are rubbish. For instance, they say that Veneto Street is better than Champs-Élysées. These are some of my favourite, sorry for my ignorance.

Saint Angelo Castle


EUR


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Old October 30th, 2009, 06:17 PM   #2
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Much of this classicism is rooted in antique Roman architecture, which is derived from Hellenistic architrecture, which ultimately derives from both classical Greek and Oriental (i.e., near-eastern) architecture.

Of course, classical Roman architecture contributed a number of innovations. But one can still argue that a lot of it is derived.

Does that make is intrinsically inferior to Greek?

Some would say yes. Personally, I don't think so.

The same argument holds with other derivations of classical Roman architecture. They are NOT inferior to the "originals".

Take for example, French Classicism, which is the French reaction to what they considered to be the excesses of Roman Baroque architecture. There is a coolness and even severity in French classicism that is totally absent from the more mannerist and movement-driven classicism of Roman Baroque.

Examples to follow...
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Old October 30th, 2009, 06:39 PM   #3
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One should also note that in Europe, there was a strong movement in many countries (at the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century) to get away from Roman architecture and go directly to what they considered the source: classical Greek architecture.

The name of this movement is, of course, neoclassicism.

Although it can be argued that neoclassicism has Roman roots (i.e., in the discovery of Pompeii and Heracleum) it quickly directed itself to the classical monuments of the Greek colonies in southern Italy -- and finally, to the classical monuments of the Greek Islands and Mainland.

The strongest and earliest proponents of this are from France and England. It has been debated when a truly neoclassical style permeated Italy, or did it ever. To be sure, Canova and his contemporaries were already well-versed in the neoclassical idiom.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #4
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Does that make is intrinsically inferior to Greek?

Some would say yes. Personally, I don't think so.
I also don't think that makes it inferior - just the Romans themselves for failing to come up with more new ideas. Needless to say, the Nazis with their architecture were beyond pathetic. And Stalin, I suppose - except his regime wasn't nationalist.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #5
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I also don't think that makes it inferior - just the Romans themselves for failing to come up with more new ideas. Needless to say, the Nazis with their architecture were beyond pathetic. And Stalin, I suppose - except his regime wasn't nationalist.

Certainly, one doesn't have to come up with new ideas all the time. Great architecture can also be derived from reinterpretation and tasteful borrowing.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:48 PM   #6
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Certainly, one doesn't have to come up with new ideas all the time. Great architecture can also be derived from reinterpretation and tasteful borrowing.
No, not all the time - just enough to make your culture distinctive.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:59 PM   #7
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The most famous example by way of comparison.

Elevation from Bernini's first design for the Louvre in Paris. Pure Italian Baroque palace architecture.


source: http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~dabbsj/barsls.ex2.htm

Perrault's East Facade of the Louvre in Paris. A very French answer to the Roman Baroque of Bernini's design.

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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:42 PM   #8
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The Roman architectures are magical and elegant. To me, the French architectures are merely some down-graded imitations. Why is it beautiful, only more complex and unnecessary, that is how exactly the real French feel. This is just nothing more than confusing. But if you are an Asian, probably the French architectures look better in their eyes. This is actually the same for the Swedish, for me, it just looks funny, not just all look beautiful and being absorbed. The Roman eyes are calm and fun-loving, are extraordinary clever, they have created the beauty of the mighty Italian designs. If you are in a clear conscience, the Italian desings look the way superior than the delusion-built, blood-sucking, some spider-webbed stuffs. This is where the Christ sheds his tears and saying good-bye to the barbarians. Now, your sense has all been sophisticated. A friend of mine has told me a lot of the Roman tales and beautiful Latin phrases and, how rubbish all the other imitations leading to the eternal city. Rome is actually a very closed holy city, not welcoming the tourists. With some luck, I really appreciate that he has shared me some knowledge of the greatest city. It is just priceless.

Last edited by cna; October 30th, 2009 at 08:51 PM.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
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The most famous example by way of comparison.

Elevation from Bernini's first design for the Louvre in Paris. Pure Italian Baroque palace architecture.


source: http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~dabbsj/barsls.ex2.htm

Perrault's East Facade of the Louvre in Paris. A very French answer to the Roman Baroque of Bernini's design.

I very much prefer Bernini honestly.

And Bernini/Borromini were not manneristic architects, but architects that innovated on every direction architecture, creating imposing (S. Peter square) and intimate (quattro fontane) masterpieces. Spectacular and sensual. Some were moved and fantasy-like, some (again for example S. Peter) at the same time innovative (round shape) and elegant (perfectly simmetrical rows of columns embracing the community of the worshippers)

Truly baroque is so underrated...I put the "Baroque" revolution as something even more important for art and architecture than Renaissance.

Without talking about neoclassicism which is just a recicled Renaissance with much less imagination
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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:57 PM   #10
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The Roman architectures are magical and elegant. To me, the French architectures are merely some down-graded imitations. Why is it beautiful, only more complex and unnecessary, that is how exactly the real French feel. This is just nothing more than confusing. But if you are an Asian, probably the French architectures look better in their eyes. This is actually the same for the Swedish, for me, it just looks funny, not just all look beautiful and being absorbed. The Roman eyes are calm and fun-loving, are extraordinary clever, they have created the beauty of the mighty Italian designs. If you are in a clear conscience, the Italian desings look the way superior than the delusion-built, blood-sucking, some spider-webbed stuffs. This is where the Christ sheds his tears and saying good-bye to the barbarians. Now, your sense has all been sophisticated. A friend of mine has told me a lot of the Roman tales and beautiful Latin phrases and, how rubbish all the other imitations leading to the eternal city. Rome is actually a very closed holy city, not welcoming the tourists. With some luck, I really appreciate that he has shared me some knowledge of the greatest city. It is just priceless.
You are entitled to this opinion, although I must say that I don't agree with it.

There is so much in Roman architecture of any period, but it doesn't mean that French architecture was totally imitative. In some ways (especially in the 19th century), the French idiom led the way even in Italy. But in the end, one should say that all European nations looked to Italy as an inspiration.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:02 PM   #11
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You are entitled to this opinion, although I must say that I don't agree with it.

There is so much in Roman architecture of any period, but it doesn't mean that French architecture was totally imitative. In some ways (especially in the 19th century), the French idiom led the way even in Italy. But in the end, one should say that all European nations looked to Italy as an inspiration.
The 19th century (and for many things also the 18th) was certainly lead by France. By the 19th century Italy was too poor and backward to lead the world of architecture anymore.

There are some 19th century italian big shots (I would put Galleria Vittorio Emanuele in Milan on top of everything, but there is also the "Mole" of Turin)
but history of architecture was definetely made abroad
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:03 PM   #12
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I very much prefer Bernini honestly.

And Bernini/Borromini were not manneristic architects, but architects that innovated on every direction architecture, creating imposing (S. Peter square) and intimate (quattro fontane) masterpieces. Spectacular and sensual. Some were moved and fantasy-like, some (again for example S. Peter) at the same time innovative (round shape) and elegant (perfectly simmetrical rows of columns embracing the community of the worshippers)

Truly baroque is so underrated...I put the "Baroque" revolution as something even more important for art and architecture than Renaissance.

Without talking about neoclassicism which is just a recicled Renaissance with much less imagination
Of course, it is not a question of which one was better. But certainly, these 2 visions highlight the differences between the then-current High Baroque of Rome and the Classicism of Louis XIV.

Remember that what is called "French Classicism" is also called "French Baroque" -- a term that the French don't like to use, and I certainly understand the difference.

To be sure, of the 2 styles, Perrault's proved to be the more influential. You see it everywhere -- from Argentina to Washington DC.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:06 PM   #13
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The 19th century (and for many things also the 18th) was certainly lead by France. By the 19th century Italy was too poor and backward to lead the world of architecture anymore.

There are some 19th century italian big shots (I would put Galleria Vittorio Emanuele in Milan on top of everything, but there is also the "Mole" of Turin)
but history of architecture was definetely made abroad
Italy has always created great architecture -- even in its period of backwardness.

The architecture of Late Antiquity and even the Dark Ages -- Italy has so many glorious examples.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:15 PM   #14
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Elevation of the Palace of Whitehall, by Inigo Jones. From Colen Campbell's Vitruvius Britannicus, of which I own a copy.

Different but in no way inferior to the Roman style then current.





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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:24 PM   #15
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Italy has always created great architecture -- even in its period of backwardness.

The architecture of Late Antiquity and even the Dark Ages -- Italy has so many glorious examples.
I always wanted to know how much the taxes from all over Europe helped to create it - or did they at all? Did the taxes end-up in Vatican or somewhere else?
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:26 PM   #16
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Synthesis of French Classicism and the Roman style: Nicodemus Tessin the Younger's monumental "Truimphal Arch" at the Palace of Stockholm.

Nicodemus Tessin the Younger is a perfect exemplar, as he is French by extraction, Swedish by choice, and studied in both Paris and Rome.

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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:29 PM   #17
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I always wanted to know how much the taxes from all over Europe helped to create it - or did they at all? Did the taxes end-up in Vatican or somewhere else?

Well, that was later on.

I am referencing here the great early basilicas of Rome.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:36 PM   #18
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Of course, it is not a question of which one was better. But certainly, these 2 visions highlight the differences between the then-current High Baroque of Rome and the Classicism of Louis XIV.

Remember that what is called "French Classicism" is also called "French Baroque" -- a term that the French don't like to use, and I certainly understand the difference.

To be sure, of the 2 styles, Perrault's proved to be the more influential. You see it everywhere -- from Argentina to Washington DC.
Uhm...actually you see also Baroque and it's diminutive version - Rococò - all over the world. In Europe, in Russia and in many european colonies. And the american neoclassicism has to do as much with Palladio's mannerism (late renaissance) as with French Neoclassical works

Here Palladio's Rotonda (just an example) fromt the late 16th century. Not Renaissance anymore, nor Baroque by any means...

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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:41 PM   #19
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I always wanted to know how much the taxes from all over Europe helped to create it - or did they at all? Did the taxes end-up in Vatican or somewhere else?
Surely Roman architecture from middle age to baroque time has much to do with the Church and its financial means (so all the donations, taxes and exemptions the church had all over europe).

However all the rest of Italy - and there is plenty of architecture in Italy which has nothing to do with Rome - owe their magnificence to the fact italy was a very very rich country for its time basically from the Roman age to the Renaissance.

Italy was the centre of commerce and finance of Europe. The Medici - which sparked renaissance in Florence - where bankers. Venice - the other motherplace of renaissance - was the trading hub between west and east. Milan was already an incredibly advanced "pre-industrial" city. Other smaller cities had something else to live on.

That's the main difference with France, Spain, UK. Italy had many centers of powers, all rich and competing with each other.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 09:42 PM   #20
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But Palladio is of course very Veneto -- and not in keeping with the High Roman style of the period.

There is certainly a lot of Baroque scattered all around the globe -- the colonial churches of Spain and Portugal are proof of this.

But you misunderstand me. I meant the 2 designs for the Louvre -- Bernini's and Perrault's. Of the two, Perrault's proved to be the more influential.


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Uhm...actually you see also Baroque and it's diminutive version - Rococò - all over the world. In Europe, in Russia and in many european colonies. And the american neoclassicism has to do as much with Palladio's mannerism (late renaissance) as with French Neoclassical works

Here Palladio's Rotonda (just an example) fromt the late 16th century. Not Renaissance anymore, nor Baroque by any means...

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