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Old February 14th, 2015, 12:18 AM   #361
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Maintennance of the Y2 train is going on. Filling water for toilets and catering.


Today's train to Västervik was replaced by bus, due to service of the Y31 railbuses.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 05:27 AM   #362
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So what the hell happened to Swedish Railways?
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Old February 14th, 2015, 01:40 PM   #363
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I was searching SJ website to find how fast is currently the fastest train between Malmo and Goetheburg (2 h 26 m, about the same as driving) and was surprised to see that tickets on the fastest train are actually significantly cheaper than on slower (almost 1 h) alternatives. In fact even a first class ticket is cheaper than any ticket on the slow train. Sure it's for non-rebookable tickets, but only a week in advance and most non-business passengers know their plans that long in advance. By the way one would pay more than this for a 2 h journey in Switzerland even with a half-fare card let alone without it...
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Old February 14th, 2015, 01:45 PM   #364
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Good for Switzerland. You earn more money, pay less taxes and actually have a good rail system. We don't. Ours is rubbish and a waste of time. I've pretty much given up travelling around this country thanks to the transport network being so bad (and the fact they won't recognise my drivers licence) so yeah, I go abroad to escape as much as I can get time off work.

Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #365
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Well, I've only been to Sweden once so I can hardly claim to be an expert but this particular connection seems to be pretty good. On paper at least

And there are also some positives to living in Sweden as opposed to Switzerland. Not that I'm complaining about my lot or anything
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Old February 14th, 2015, 07:31 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Good for Switzerland. You earn more money, pay less taxes and actually have a good rail system. We don't. Ours is rubbish and a waste of time. I've pretty much given up travelling around this country thanks to the transport network being so bad (and the fact they won't recognise my drivers licence) so yeah, I go abroad to escape as much as I can get time off work.

Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.
Are you ok? Which countries use yield management?
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Old February 14th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #367
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Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management.
Have you seen the price tag on those Shinkansen tickets?
Also, the SBB does offer yield managed fares.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.
You don't have to agree with me, but I'd appreciate keeping the discussion civil.

I live in Switzerland so you needn't lecture me about advantages or disadvantages of our rail system. I'm not inclined to repeat this discussion here.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 11:29 PM   #369
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Have you seen the price tag on those Shinkansen tickets?
Also, the SBB does offer yield managed fares.
Have I been on the Shinkansen and paid for the tickets? Yes. Yes I have. The Shinkansen is priced so that it can capture the majority modal share for the routes it serves over the mid-long distance journeys. Very long distances of course it loses out to air, but mid-long it has the majority because of its pricing. How does SJ do? Terribly. You pay for poor service, poor reliability and a generally awful experience. It doesn't even manage to capture the majority of the market here in Sweden for similar journeys so obviously there is a problem with its business model.

Travelling tomorrow - Stockholm to Gothenburg 955kr one way (that's 13,455 yen) approximately 466km by road and takes 3:03h.
Travelling tomorrow - Tokyo to Kyoto 13,910 one way (987kr) approximately 513.6 km and takes 138 min.

Difference? Quality of service and reliability as well as speed and frequency.


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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You don't have to agree with me, but I'd appreciate keeping the discussion civil.

I live in Switzerland so you needn't lecture me about advantages or disadvantages of our rail system. I'm not inclined to repeat this discussion here.
You see fit to lecture me about the Swedish rail system. I tell you it's pants on head stupid (like most things here), you disagree. I spent three months (well, one month and two months in two separate trips) touring your country. I have at least used your system more than you have the system here so that does at least qualify me to the same degree to comment on your system as it does for you to comment on the one here.

As for civility, that was civil. I didn't insult you more than to say you're a die-hard sucker for yield managed railways, in other words someone who firmly believes in that practice. Whilst it is a more colourful turn of phrase, I'd hardly call it "uncivil".

Last edited by Svartmetall; February 14th, 2015 at 11:45 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 12:58 AM   #370
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Travelling tomorrow - Stockholm to Gothenburg 955kr one way (that's 13,455 yen) approximately 466km by road and takes 3:03h.
Travelling tomorrow - Tokyo to Kyoto 13,910 one way (987kr) approximately 513.6 km and takes 138 min.

Difference? Quality of service and reliability as well as speed and frequency.
That's not quite fair. Whatever are the troubles of your incumbent operator it's hardly their fault that the government, and it would have to be government with your population density, haven't spent a lot of money building proper high speed lines.


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You see fit to lecture me about the Swedish rail system. I tell you it's pants on head stupid (like most things here), you disagree. I spent three months (well, one month and two months in two separate trips) touring your country. I have at least used your system more than you have the system here so that does at least qualify me to the same degree to comment on your system as it does for you to comment on the one here.
My first comment in this thread had nothing to do with you personally at all. I tried to find out how the newly finished tunnel would fit in Goetheburg-Malmo line and wrote a comment in this thread about my impression on service (on paper - no idea about delays or customer service) being pretty good both time wise for a nondedicated line and for price. I still stand by it. Swiss trains are also only on par with driving except in few cases where long tunnels have made shortcuts (Bern- upper Wallis most prominently).
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Old February 15th, 2015, 01:12 AM   #371
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That's not quite fair. Whatever are the troubles of your incumbent operator it's hardly their fault that the government, and it would have to be government with your population density, haven't spent a lot of money building proper high speed lines.
Well, it is their fault that their service sucks and that they are not fairly priced given the level of service they give. Plus, don't forget, SJ is the government, they are state owned. As for population density, it's not so sparse in this part of the country y'know. Up north, yes, but in the south, not really as many towns/cities are strung along the railway lines giving them a good population capture along the lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
My first comment in this thread had nothing to do with you personally at all. I tried to find out how the newly finished tunnel would fit in Goetheburg-Malmo line and wrote a comment in this thread about my impression on service (on paper - no idea about delays or customer service) being pretty good both time wise for a nondedicated line and for price. I still stand by it. Swiss trains are also only on par with driving except in few cases where long tunnels have made shortcuts (Bern- upper Wallis most prominently).
The longer the distance and fewer the stops the faster the train will be as it takes a while to bring them back to cruising speed. Therefore having few stops on a long line automatically gives it an edge over a more urban or frequent stop service.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 01:26 AM   #372
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Well, it is their fault that their service sucks and that they are not fairly priced given the level of service they give. Plus, don't forget, SJ is the government, they are state owned. As for population density, it's not so sparse in this part of the country y'know. Up north, yes, but in the south, not really as many towns/cities are strung along the railway lines giving them a good population capture along the lines.
Don't know if you saw it, but there was a discussion about this in the Spanish thread. I was a bit surprised, but apparently maintenance costs of a regular line and HS line are very similar and if so you can't expect it to be much cheaper unless the service is subsidised in one way or another.

The reason I mentioned population density is that very high density has allowed Japanese to build HSR by private investment. In every other country so far it has been a government funded endeavour.

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The longer the distance and fewer the stops the faster the train will be as it takes a while to bring them back to cruising speed. Therefore having few stops on a long line automatically gives it an edge over a more urban or frequent stop service.
Yes of course, but what point are you trying to make here?
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Old February 15th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #373
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Don't know if you saw it, but there was a discussion about this in the Spanish thread. I was a bit surprised, but apparently maintenance costs of a regular line and HS line are very similar and if so you can't expect it to be much cheaper unless the service is subsidised in one way or another.

The reason I mentioned population density is that very high density has allowed Japanese to build HSR by private investment. In every other country so far it has been a government funded endeavour.
No. Look at the source of funding for the Shinkansen - it was government funded and built from the start and the JR groups inherited the network. Also, the Tohoku shinkansen passes through the Tohoku region which has a population density of only 140 people per km. The shinkansen is also being extended to Hokaido, which does have a low population density so I don't understand your point here.

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Yes of course, but what point are you trying to make here?
That you're comparing Switzerland, a place with dense stations and a dense population and network that is competing against motorways with high speed limits. Here you have a network geared to longer distances and fewer stops, so of course it's more competitive against the car than in a denser country. You should be more impressed that the train can compete at all in Switzerland.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 02:24 AM   #374
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That you're comparing Switzerland, a place with dense stations and a dense population and network that is competing against motorways with high speed limits. Here you have a network geared to longer distances and fewer stops, so of course it's more competitive against the car than in a denser country. You should be more impressed that the train can compete at all in Switzerland.
Trains with many stops don't manage it. I was talking about express trains. There is for example a non-stop train twice an hour between Basel and Zurich. Takes 53 min, driving is about 1 h without heavy traffic.

In flatter countries it's easier to achieve higher average speed without very expensive tunnelling and bridge building. Railways are more affected by difficult geography than motorways.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 02:39 AM   #375
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Trains with many stops don't manage it. I was talking about express trains. There is for example a non-stop train twice an hour between Basel and Zurich. Takes 53 min, driving is about 1 h without heavy traffic.

In flatter countries it's easier to achieve higher average speed without very expensive tunnelling and bridge building. Railways are more affected by difficult geography than motorways.
A non-stop train that leaves you centre to centre in a bit less time that runs twice an hour is quite an impressive feat if one gets a decent level of service and comfort with that. If price also becomes more competitive (if you own a card that allows access to local public transport as well as trains) then it does become very attractive. Like I said, it's a different situation here whereby you have inflexibility (due to yield management) which kills the spontaneous traveller, you have poor service and in my opinion poor reliability and comfort too, that is why SJ will fail to capture the modal share one sees elsewhere. This is why I don't like the train system here.

Sure, it's easier in flat countries, and this is exactly why the Swiss rail system consistently impressed me with its comfort, punctuality and speed. Here doesn't have the excuse of difficult terrain on the whole.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 03:44 AM   #376
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Railway systems in Scandinavia aren't that impressive from what I understand despite their wealth. Denmark seems to be only country who is investing into a modern, faster rail system.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 03:50 AM   #377
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Well, you have to put it into context here. Sweden does have a pretty good railway system by international standards given its population density. What it doesn't have is a government that is properly investing in improvements and a decent company to run trains on the system. Customer service needs to be improved too. I mean, we definitely have a functioning transport network, but I want more for the amount that it costs. As with everything in Sweden, it is expensive relative to what you get.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #378
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How long it's been going on like that in Sweden?
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Old February 15th, 2015, 05:27 PM   #379
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How long it's been going on like that in Sweden?
SJ has been loathed as long as it has existed, even going as far back as the 1940s. And not only by its users, also the workers have always complained of the poor management all the way back to the funding years of the company.

The never ending problems with Swedish railways in recent winters for example, were just as prevailent during hard winters in the 1980s, 1970s, 1960s and 1940s. In the 1990s there were no hard winters so most people forgot about how bad it was, but the reality is it has never been good in the first place.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 08:58 PM   #380
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Back in 1980 the old brown Da & Hg locos were still common on some less important sidelines, while the orange Rc-loco was predominant on the main lines.
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