GENERELL UTVIKLING | Byutvikling og byggeprosjekter

[Þróndeimr]

Originally Posted by Maggern2k

his view to what? The hillside?

Nardo hillside is just ugly anyway, Berg Studentby will be a much better view to look at in the future in my opinion!

[ivar_ka]

Plan for part of the Sorgenfri area: http://webtools.klapp.no/data/arc/ve...lanprogram.pdf

Selv om Sorgenfrivegen 18 ligger i et området hvor kommunen muligens kan tillate etablering av høyhus har tiltakshaver valgt å gå bort fra denne ideen i det videre utredningsarbeidet.

"We finally are allowed to build a tall building? Nah...then we build a low one"

[Maggern2k]

Originally Posted by Þróndeimr

Nardo hillside is just ugly anyway, Berg Studentby will be a much better view to look at in the future in my opinion!

The point is from that angle you don't see anything at all from the start. Only some trees, grass and the couple of houses closest to you :p. I guess he misses his grass. The rumors of a bar in the new village helped though (it did for me)

[mjoks007]

Bybane i det blå

[essenze]

Originally Posted by mjoks007

Bybane i det blå

I am pretty sure this is not the whole picture. It's hard to believe that the price-tag would be 250 MNOK / km. The problem seems to be that they plan it too widely, where the population density vs. distances are low. The network need to start with the most central parts of town, and then build from there.

I got the following suggestion: Plan one line going from Torvet southward Prinsens / Elgeseter gate to Sluppen (will have future expansions for industry and commerce). The other line should go eastwards along Innherredsveien, take left at Strindheim-krysset and go across to Lade/Haakon VII's gt with the new bridge coming there. Then go back to centrum along Jarleveien/Mellomveien

[54°26′S 3°24′E]

Why not use existing lines, including the Leangen-Lerkendal tunnel?

Originally Posted by Maggern2k

Now I'm too young to remember, but I heard they had the exact same problem when they built the new E6 between Trondheim and Heimdal, where they had a way too small road with shifting lanes already on completion. Thankfully they soon redeveloped it into 3x3. I guess Trondheim just continues to underestimate itself on infrastructure

No, it is not the exact same problem. In the 70s when they built the first Kroppan bridge they actually had the second one planned. Still it took about 20 years.

In the NAV case, it would be much more complicated to widen the road later since we are talking about a very complicated tunnel. Instead of increasing the cost with 25 % which would have been the added cost if NAV was built with four lanes, the added cost will be something like 125 % in the future. But this is current labor party planning in practice.

[essenze]

Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E

In the NAV case, it would be much more complicated to widen the road later since we are talking about a very complicated tunnel. Instead of increasing the cost with 25 % which would have been the added cost if NAV was built with four lanes, the added cost will be something like 125 % in the future. But this is current labor party planning in practice.

At least - most probably 200%. NAV has not only one, but 4 tunnels (including the Marienborg tunnel). The way it is now, it will be next to impossible to just "expand" the current road in the future. There is simply no room. We'll have to pay the price from day 1 with congestion on the new road when it opens because it is underdimensioned, and then (far enough into the future) when the capacity is to be increased, they would probably have to build a "senketunnel" (similar to the one in Bjørvika, Oslo) all the way outside the shoreline from Nyhavna or Brattøra to Ila.

[Ingenioren]

Some short presentations about Bybane in Trondheim:
http://www.vegvesen.no/Om+Statens+ve...Vis?key=129450

[Kjello0]

I do by far like Gråkallbanen/Veolia's alternative the best. Though I'm a bit unsure if they are talking about a real metro, or a "metro". Both Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger/Sandnes should start building metro's after Oslo Sporveier's "Metrostandard". All three cities is expected to grow alot the next 30 years, and they'll probably even grow more.

Oslo should also replace the most busy tram and buslines with metrolines. All tramlines expect line 19, has traffic of over 6 million passengers a year. That's over 33 full trains a day. And line 19 got most of it's route common with line 18. Only three stations on line 19 isn't covered by other lines. So expect line 19, which should be closed, I want all lines to be replaced by metro lines. Buslines 20, 31 and 37 should also be replaced with metro lines.

But with the current fundings and goverment that will never happen.

[Hansadyret]

Originally Posted by Kjello0

Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger/Sandnes should start building metro's after Oslo Sporveier's "Metrostandard". All three cities is expected to grow alot the next 30 years, and they'll probably even grow more.

Metro in cities like Trondheim, Bergen, Gothenburg etc is very expensive and difficult as much ground in central parts is clay and not solid rock. Just an underground station could cost way over 100 million. It's much cheaper for smaller cities to go for light-rail(bybane) on separate tracks away from cartraffic.
Besides, underground tunnels is boring as hell

[City of Rain]

Originally Posted by Hansadyret

Metro in cities like Trondheim, Bergen, Gothenburg etc is very expensive and difficult as much ground in central parts is clay and not solid rock. Just an underground station could cost way over 100 million. It's much cheaper for smaller cities to go for light-rail(bybane) on separate tracks away from cartraffic.
Besides, underground tunnels is boring as hell

actually, id be all for a metro system in Bergen.. its an extremely convinent and effective way to travel and also it gives that big-city feel i think Bergen needs more of.

[Hansadyret]

Originally Posted by City of Rain

actually, id be all for a metro system in Bergen.. its an extremely convinent and effective way to travel and also it gives that big-city feel i think Bergen needs more of.

Yes but it is allso extremely expensive.
Oslo is one of the smallest cities in the world with a metro system.
Bybanen going north will be so much tunnels that it will feel a bit like a metro. From what i understand they could be planning an underground station under NHH because it is much higher than Sandviken and Eidsvåg. They will probably go for a tunnel from the "gamle Bergen"-area to Eidsvåg with a underground station under NHH.
But anyway this is the Trondheim-thread

[Tohaki]

This is not major news perhaps, but Ranheim IL (now in 1. division) are building a new stadium with around 1.000 seats, meeting NFF's requirements for top football and lighting good enough for TV-transmissions.

http://www.ranheimfotball.no/n40/Ran...na-i-Trondheim

I think this is very good news, as Lerkendal is not the place for a #2-club in Trondheim, which needs to base itself on local suburb enthusiasm.

[Kjello0]

With the current position in the table they need to expand it already next year. Minimum 3 000 seats to play in Tippeligaen.

[Kjello0]

Originally Posted by Hansadyret

Yes but it is allso extremely expensive.
Oslo is one of the smallest cities in the world with a metro system.

There are 12 cities that is notable smaller than Oslo that also has metro's. The smallest of them all Lausanne in Switzerland with only 133 280 inhabitans. Oslo does however got the biggest network in terms of km compared to population and number of stations compared to population.

Both Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger/Sandnes is expected to grow alot the next 30 years.
Trondheim (Trondheim, Malvik and Klæbu) is expected to reach 260 000 inhabitans within 2030 with high growth. And the last 10 years SSB's expectations has been way to low. So I wouldn't be surprised if we in 2040 are talking about a city that has around 350 000 inhabitans.

The same goes for Bergen and Stavanger/Sandnes.

Stavanger/Sandnes (Stavanger, Sandnes, Sola and Randaberg) is expected to reach 330 000 in 2030 with high growth, and will probably be close to 450 000 when we reach 2040 in my opinion.

Bergen (Bergen and Os) is expected to reach 370 000 inhabitans in 2030 with high growth. Again I wouldn't be surprised if we are talking about 500 000 in Bergen in 2040. If we include Askøy and Fjell, we are talking about expectations of 440 000 inhabitans in 2030. Then we are talking of over 600 000 inhabitans in 2040.

So in 30 years, these cities will probably at least double up in size.

And before these people can move to the cities, we need to have the infrastructure in place.
And if we were to decide to build a metro today, it would probably take 10 years of planing, then 10 years to build. Then it's only 10 years left to 2040. And you want the new system to last some years don't you?
Light rail was the solution for todays traffic, we need metro's to handle the future traffic.

If they want to build light rail, look to Fredrikstad/Sarpsborg, Porsgrunn/Skien, Drammen, Kristiansand and perhaps even Arendal/Grimstad, Haugesund/Karmøy and Tromsø. Though Drammen is expected to be swallowed by Oslo by then. These cities is expected to reach from 80 to 160 000 within 2030. Which probably means anything from 100 to 250 000. And probably anything from 120 to 300 000 if we talk 2040. These are the cities that need light rail.

By the way, metro's don't have to go underground. Though most of them do, some goes in the air on bridges in central areas.

[City of Rain]

Originally Posted by Kjello0

There are 12 cities that is notable smaller than Oslo that also has metro's. The smallest of them all Lausanne in Switzerland with only 133 280 inhabitans. Oslo does however got the biggest network in terms of km compared to population and number of stations compared to population.

Both Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger/Sandnes is expected to grow alot the next 30 years.
Trondheim (Trondheim, Malvik and Klæbu) is expected to reach 260 000 inhabitans within 2030 with high growth. And the last 10 years SSB's expectations has been way to low. So I wouldn't be surprised if we in 2040 are talking about a city that has around 350 000 inhabitans.

The same goes for Bergen and Stavanger/Sandnes.

Stavanger/Sandnes (Stavanger, Sandnes, Sola and Randaberg) is expected to reach 330 000 in 2030 with high growth, and will probably be close to 450 000 when we reach 2040 in my opinion.

Bergen (Bergen and Os) is expected to reach 370 000 inhabitans in 2030 with high growth. Again I wouldn't be surprised if we are talking about 500 000 in Bergen in 2040. If we include Askøy and Fjell, we are talking about expectations of 440 000 inhabitans in 2030. Then we are talking of over 600 000 inhabitans in 2040.

So in 30 years, these cities will probably at least double up in size.

And before these people can move to the cities, we need to have the infrastructure in place.
And if we were to decide to build a metro today, it would probably take 10 years of planing, then 10 years to build. Then it's only 10 years left to 2040. And you want the new system to last some years don't you?
Light rail was the solution for todays traffic, we need metro's to handle the future traffic.

If they want to build light rail, look to Fredrikstad/Sarpsborg, Porsgrunn/Skien, Drammen, Kristiansand and perhaps even Arendal/Grimstad, Haugesund/Karmøy and Tromsø. Though Drammen is expected to be swallowed by Oslo by then. These cities is expected to reach from 80 to 160 000 within 2030. Which probably means anything from 100 to 250 000. And probably anything from 120 to 300 000 if we talk 2040. These are the cities that need light rail.

By the way, metro's don't have to go underground. Though most of them do, some goes in the air on bridges in central areas.

your talk of bergen with a population of 500 000 and 600 000 inhabitants is making me wet

i dont know how accurate your numbers are, to me they sound a little overkill.. but i still see the point youre trying to make. there is no denying that all these cities will need metros eventually, so why not start building them now?

only the most central parts of bybanen would have to be underground.. id say all stations on the bergenhus side of the bridge that goes from danmarksplass (årstad) to central bergen. all lines on the "island" where the city centre of bergen is located, could be underground while the rest could be up in the open.

that really would be amazing.. i even know a perfect spot for an underground bybanen spot! haha that area right outside of the banco rotto night club.. i could go on dreaming forever..

also, building a metro now would make the city grow even faster.. as when you have something like a metro line, that is permanent, developers will find it much more tempting to build new buildings and areas close to the metro.

if it was up to me, we should start building one already.. i mean, its going to pay off one day anyway so why wait. its just silly.. there are too many benefits of starting construction right now to wait. first they should build it to åsane it could be built underground all the way to somewhere in sandviken, before it could start going above ground. really, i should stop talking now.

[IceCheese]

The Oslo metro wasn't built for a million+ city that either. The western lines were built as trams, so those doesn't count, but the eastern lines were planed as metro lines serving a specific area in development where housing for 160.000 were estimated. You don't need a huge city to defend a metro, but if you're going to defend a metro, you need a really focused city development in the area to be served by it.

[City of Rain]

well, central bergen is pretty dense if thats what you mean.. and a metro in bergen would really just be that we moved the most central parts of bybanen underground and kept it underground for future development (in the city centre).

[Hansadyret]

Originally Posted by Kjello0

By the way, metro's don't have to go underground. Though most of them do, some goes in the air on bridges in central areas.

I could live with something like the Vancouver skytrain.
Some of these new light rail lines could probably be developed in that direction (metro) when the cities grow and can finance it.
Many bigger cities have a combination of different public transport systems fitting their size and geography.
I'm not sure a city like Bergen really needs a metro in very long time even with the expected growth. Maybe a new fast local-train to neighbouring municipalities like Os and Knarvik is a better and cheaper option in combination with the light-rail.

[Kjello0]

I'm glad to see that someone agrees with me.

Regarding my numbers.

With high growth the predictions for 2030 is
262 047 in Trondheim (Trondheim, Malvik and Klæbu), which of 237 916 within Trondheim borders.
324 102 in Stavanger/Sandnes (Stavanger, Sandnes, Sola and Randaberg), which of 178 646 within Stavanger borders and 98 020 within Sandnes borders.
441 771 in Bergen (Bergen, Askøy, Os, Fjell), which of 345 887 is within Bergen borders.

Today the population within the same areas is
Trondheim: 189 287
Stavanger/Sandnes: 221 349
Bergen: 320 100
So that's 70 000 up for Trondheim, 100 000 up for Stavanger/Sandnes and 120 000 up for Bergen.

However, the last 20 years SSB has been off with about 20% of the predicted population in city regions. So a city that had an predicted population of 100 000 in 2010, had on average 120 000 when we actually reached 2010. I'm still laughing about their prediction from 2005 on Trondheim reaching 170 000 in 2017, which was reached last year.

For Bergen with an predicted population of 441 771 in 2030 we would by adding that 20% difference get 530 125 in 2030. If we then again add 10 years of growth, we are probably talking about over 600 000 in 2040. That's only 30 years left.

But as with all goverment planning in Norway, we only do the bare minimum and the predictions is extremly low.