East Midlands | Midland Main Line - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > East Midlands

East Midlands Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Lincoln and Northampton


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 17th, 2016, 01:23 AM   #1
nguba
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 369
Likes (Received): 93

East Midlands | Midland Main Line

I thought it would be useful to start a separate thread on the electrification of the Midland Main Line as is has is likely to come under greater political scrutiny given the delays to other projects and works are starting to get under way.

The electrification project includes:

- Electrifying the line between Bedford and Kettering/Corby by December 2019 and Kettering to Derby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield by 2023.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/midland...ent-programme/

Other associated works as part of this include:

- Increasing capacity at London St Pancras for a sixth train per hour between London St Pancras and Corby by December 2019.

- Adding a fourth line of track between Bedford and Kettering and a second line between Kettering and Corby.

- Remodelling track and signalling at Derby station (due to take place in 2018).

- Straightening track at Market Harborough to increase line speeds (due to take place in 2017).

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Market-Harborough/

The Government has also today published a prospectus for the new East Midlands Trains franchise which is due to take effect in 2018:

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...prospectus.pdf
nguba no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 17th, 2016, 01:09 PM   #2
PeteB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 306
Likes (Received): 150

Christ. Seven years to electrify track to Nottingham - and even this might be delayed.

Embarrassing. NASA will have launched a crewed mission into lunar orbit by then, and I'm not even joking.
PeteB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2016, 01:15 PM   #3
Refresh01
Registered User
 
Refresh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Leicester
Posts: 1,096
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteB View Post
Christ. Seven years to electrify track to Nottingham - and even this might be delayed.

Embarrassing. NASA will have launched a crewed mission into lunar orbit by then, and I'm not even joking.

The original plan was to have it all done by 2020 too.
Refresh01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 17th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #4
Lears City
Look there, look there!
 
Lears City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Leicester
Posts: 10,391
Likes (Received): 458

When are we likely to get the new Hitachi trains, which are faster than the Intercity 125's? The Hitachi's will make a mockery of some of the speed gains claimed by HS2.
Lears City no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #5
ps60
Strong and Stable
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,539
Likes (Received): 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lears City View Post
When are we likely to get the new Hitachi trains, which are faster than the Intercity 125's? The Hitachi's will make a mockery of some of the speed gains claimed by HS2.
HS2 is essentially for the longer distances and bigger markets of Leeds and Manchester to London. They're both 190 or 200 miles from London, and will be an hour or so faster to London.
__________________
Tory transport policy: One billion more for the DUP; 140 billion more for Brexit; one billion less for the railways.

In 1979 the Tories called us the sick man of Europe; by 2017 they made us the sick man of Europe. Soon we'll be its Brexit basket case
ps60 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2016, 07:46 PM   #6
red reflections
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 187
Likes (Received): 30

just as a question... does anybody have confidence that the Midland Mainline

will be upgraded and electrified by the target date of 2023 ?
red reflections no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #7
Centurio
Registered User
 
Centurio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Twickenham
Posts: 8,175
Likes (Received): 4620

This was sneaked out last week:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-38004362

I don't think the Midland Mainline will be electrified.
__________________

-
Centurio no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #8
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,068
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lears City View Post
When are we likely to get the new Hitachi trains, which are faster than the Intercity 125's? The Hitachi's will make a mockery of some of the speed gains claimed by HS2.
As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....

The Hitachi trains are faster than IC125s when they are working under wires suitable for 125mph operation.

If not, the IC125s are much faster. No wires will be seen north of Kettering/Corby for a long time. Diesels may have to be ordered for the MML - or transferred.

No idea what your interpretation of mockery is?
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2016, 08:50 PM   #9
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,068
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by red reflections View Post
just as a question... does anybody have confidence that the Midland Mainline will be upgraded and electrified by the target date of 2023 ?
I don't - just St Pancras to Corby is likely. Which is rubbish....
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2016, 10:50 PM   #10
mapperleyred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 776
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by red reflections View Post
just as a question... does anybody have confidence that the Midland Mainline

will be upgraded and electrified by the target date of 2023 ?
It's unlikely to be electrified.

It's also entirely possible that, with competition from HS2 to Toton, MML services to Nottingham will be scaled down or even shelved.

EMA will have to face even stiffer competition from HS2 connected airports and will almost certainly become a freight only airport.

Let's hope the powers that be, led by no other than Jon Collins, have some guarantees over MML, otherwise this has the potential to cause irreparable damage to Nottingham and the East Midlands.

Not so much a game changer as game over.
__________________

Centurio liked this post
mapperleyred no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2016, 12:59 PM   #11
kevjs1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 1,357
Likes (Received): 884

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....

The Hitachi trains are faster than IC125s when they are working under wires suitable for 125mph operation.

If not, the IC125s are much faster. No wires will be seen north of Kettering/Corby for a long time. Diesels may have to be ordered for the MML - or transferred.

No idea what your interpretation of mockery is?
That's the top speed though isn't it - on the MML with the shorter distances and frequent stop the AT300s and Meridians accelerate faster giving a quicker end to end journey time - hence the HSTs being used on services to Leeds, AIUI the AT300s are better than the Merdidians too.

The hybrid trains (Hitachi or others) would be a sensible option on the MML (and possibly Liverpool to Norwich) for a number of reasons:-

1. The HST is inevitably going to be replaced - by 2033 (the end of the possible franchise, before possible extensions) the youngest HST's will be 51 years old, not to mention that the EMT ones are even more tired than other operators and not compatible with modern disability standards or passengers expectations so will require significant investment to bring up to standards
2. Hybrid rolling stock can be introduced before the wiring is complete and can cope with the delays. Purchasing a load of bespoke DMU's would signal an end to Electrification of the MML in a way Hybrids wouldn't - many of the cities along the MML are exceeding pollution limits currently and with the likes of NCT/NCommT no longer buying diesel busses for this reason (Gas and electric from now on) it seems that forcing diesel trains on the East Mildands for the next 40 years would be politically unsatisfactory.
3. If electrification is scaled back, the costs of new rolling stock don't need to be taken into account when electrifying the lines, and instead it can be a slower progression of work using the skills and expertise built elsewhere.
4. Recent franchise awards have been to operators investing in new rolling stock and the East Midlands prospectus implies the East Midlands franchise will be judged in a similar way.
5. The EMT proposals a few months ago show that EMT have a desire to operate more Intercity routes where hybrid stock would be very useful, from a branding and maintenance point of view.

As for the MML we simply don't know yet - the lack of confirmation on Classic Compatible services makes that harder to know for sure - it's inevitable that some of the Nottingham fasts will be replaced by semi-fasts stopping more frequently but with Leicester and Loughbourgh still needing to be served both to London and Nottingham I doubt the direct services will be shelved entirely - instead it will be like the Leeds services, not many end to end passengers, and those that are left will want the cheaper seats (as they do from Leeds currently) or heading to and from intermediate stations.

EMT need to have a fleet ready for HS2 (if current passenger growth continues it's possible that the MML and HS2 will both be well used post HS2 - especially as the latter only has 1 station in the region) so this next franchise is pretty much where they need to make that investment - with the Meridians getting on for 30 years old by that time a mainline upgrade really does make sense - but with the HSTs being the week point they can be delivered over a longer term.

As for them being Hitachis - who knows, they are short of capacity with trains being on order for delivery into the early 2020s - Flirt's are a possibility, and perhaps Bombardier will have something on the table - but would they be ready for delivery early enough to replace the HSTs before they break the disability discrimination rules?
kevjs1982 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2016, 02:02 PM   #12
mapperleyred
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 776
Likes (Received): 161

With MML services reduced or shelved, what does the future hold for Nottingham's city centre railway station.

World class hub or backwater?
mapperleyred no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2016, 02:16 PM   #13
kevjs1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 1,357
Likes (Received): 884

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapperleyred View Post
With MML services reduced or shelved, what does the future hold for Nottingham's city centre railway station.

World class hub or backwater?
Or somewhere around the place it currently occupies (i.e. still a busy station but effectively without seeing the growth that's expected over the next decade and a half)?

After all we are the largest urban area with just one principal railway station, and the HS2 site is in a prime position for encouraging growth between Nottingham and Derby... (Heck, we are the largest urban area in England with only one significant city/town in the urban area - e.g. London has the centre/Docklands/Crydon etc, Manchester/Salford, Livepool/Birkenhead, Southampton/Portsmouth etc...)

Of course, this does depend on how the next EMT franchise pays out, how much the economy tanks because of Brexit, how much it then recovers, and the impact of HS2 on development in Nottingham/Toton-ish...
kevjs1982 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #14
duane
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,336
Likes (Received): 177

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjs1982 View Post

After all we are the largest urban area with just one principal railway station, and the HS2 site is in a prime position for encouraging growth between Nottingham and Derby... (Heck, we are the largest urban area in England with only one significant city/town in the urban area - e.g. London has the centre/Docklands/Crydon etc, Manchester/Salford, Livepool/Birkenhead, Southampton/Portsmouth etc...)
I believe the least stations per head of population actually falls to Leicester.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-37212969
duane no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2016, 02:02 AM   #15
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,068
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjs1982 View Post
That's the top speed though isn't it - on the MML with the shorter distances and frequent stop the AT300s and Meridians accelerate faster giving a quicker end to end journey time - hence the HSTs being used on services to Leeds, AIUI the AT300s are better than the Merdidians too.

The hybrid trains (Hitachi or others) would be a sensible option on the MML (and possibly Liverpool to Norwich) for a number of reasons:-

1. The HST is inevitably going to be replaced - by 2033 (the end of the possible franchise, before possible extensions) the youngest HST's will be 51 years old, not to mention that the EMT ones are even more tired than other operators and not compatible with modern disability standards or passengers expectations so will require significant investment to bring up to standards
2. Hybrid rolling stock can be introduced before the wiring is complete and can cope with the delays. Purchasing a load of bespoke DMU's would signal an end to Electrification of the MML in a way Hybrids wouldn't - many of the cities along the MML are exceeding pollution limits currently and with the likes of NCT/NCommT no longer buying diesel busses for this reason (Gas and electric from now on) it seems that forcing diesel trains on the East Mildands for the next 40 years would be politically unsatisfactory.
3. If electrification is scaled back, the costs of new rolling stock don't need to be taken into account when electrifying the lines, and instead it can be a slower progression of work using the skills and expertise built elsewhere.
4. Recent franchise awards have been to operators investing in new rolling stock and the East Midlands prospectus implies the East Midlands franchise will be judged in a similar way.
5. The EMT proposals a few months ago show that EMT have a desire to operate more Intercity routes where hybrid stock would be very useful, from a branding and maintenance point of view.

As for the MML we simply don't know yet - the lack of confirmation on Classic Compatible services makes that harder to know for sure - it's inevitable that some of the Nottingham fasts will be replaced by semi-fasts stopping more frequently but with Leicester and Loughbourgh still needing to be served both to London and Nottingham I doubt the direct services will be shelved entirely - instead it will be like the Leeds services, not many end to end passengers, and those that are left will want the cheaper seats (as they do from Leeds currently) or heading to and from intermediate stations.

EMT need to have a fleet ready for HS2 (if current passenger growth continues it's possible that the MML and HS2 will both be well used post HS2 - especially as the latter only has 1 station in the region) so this next franchise is pretty much where they need to make that investment - with the Meridians getting on for 30 years old by that time a mainline upgrade really does make sense - but with the HSTs being the week point they can be delivered over a longer term.

As for them being Hitachis - who knows, they are short of capacity with trains being on order for delivery into the early 2020s - Flirt's are a possibility, and perhaps Bombardier will have something on the table - but would they be ready for delivery early enough to replace the HSTs before they break the disability discrimination rules?
In short - IEPs (AT300s) on diesel have a much lower power/weight ratio than HSTs. Quicker off the mark for sure, but a HST would overtake within 3 miles and leave it standing. Unless the IEP MTU engines are uprated....
2) There won't be delivery options until late 2020 or 2021 for new Hitachi bi-modes - even if contracts were signed tomorrow.
3) HSTs have to be replaced or rebuilt by the end of 2019 (disability regs).
4) The 1980s vintage wires from St Pancras to Bedford only allow 100mph running. They need replacing for higher speeds.
5) HSTs are considered a problem from Dec 2018 - they are apparently too slow to fit into the new Thameslink timetable. It is too late to order any kind of new train to replace them - even straight diesels.

The whole thing is a mess.....
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2016, 12:06 PM   #16
CharlieP
Tax avoider
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 23,934
Likes (Received): 2102

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapperleyred View Post
It's unlikely to be electrified.

It's also entirely possible that, with competition from HS2 to Toton, MML services to Nottingham will be scaled down or even shelved.

EMA will have to face even stiffer competition from HS2 connected airports and will almost certainly become a freight only airport.
Which "HS2 connected airports"? There's going to be a "Manchester Airport" stop on the western leg, but it's not actually at the airport. Birmingham Interchange is a long way from the airport, and Heathrow will be connected to HS2 via existing rail links. I doubt the holidaymakers of Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Notts are suddenly going to switch to Birmingham International simply because they can catch a train (if they're near a railhead) to Toton, and then transfer at Birmingham Interchange.
__________________
This signature is socialist and un-American.

sirstan74 liked this post
CharlieP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2016, 12:09 PM   #17
CharlieP
Tax avoider
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 23,934
Likes (Received): 2102

Anyway, something positive for a change:

http://www.harboroughmail.co.uk/news...tion-1-7686542
__________________
This signature is socialist and un-American.
CharlieP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2016, 12:37 PM   #18
kevjs1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 1,357
Likes (Received): 884

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
Which "HS2 connected airports"? There's going to be a "Manchester Airport" stop on the western leg, but it's not actually at the airport.
That's stretching it somewhat - other side of the M56 and connected to the airport via an automated walkway. Birmingham is pretty much in the same boat. None are quite as extreme as EMP and EMA!

For the holiday maker that's pretty much "at the airport" - and no worse than parking in the JetParks car parks at EMA, using Luton Airport Parkway, or the Business Parking Terminal at Heathrow...
kevjs1982 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2016, 01:09 PM   #19
CharlieP
Tax avoider
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 23,934
Likes (Received): 2102

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevjs1982 View Post
That's stretching it somewhat - other side of the M56 and connected to the airport via an automated walkway. Birmingham is pretty much in the same boat. None are quite as extreme as EMP and EMA!

For the holiday maker that's pretty much "at the airport" - and no worse than parking in the JetParks car parks at EMA, using Luton Airport Parkway, or the Business Parking Terminal at Heathrow...
The point is that it's mainly there as a parkway station for south Manchester - the nearby airport (about 1.5 km away as the crow flies) is just a side benefit. Most passengers will still arrive by classic rail, tram or, mostly, car or taxi.
__________________
This signature is socialist and un-American.

Vulcan's Finest liked this post
CharlieP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 5th, 2017, 12:40 AM   #20
nguba
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 369
Likes (Received): 93

This is story of slower journey times and possible cancellation of electrification is hugely frustrating if true:

http://www.nottinghampost.com/anothe...ail/story.html

Quote:
Next year, Thameslink, the services south of Bedford to Brighton which embrace London suburbs and its commuter belt, will see the completion a £7 billion modernisation programme including new stations, extended platforms, new and longer trains and more frequent services.

Thameslink plans to step up the frequency of trains running out of London to Bedford, Luton and St Albans using the Midland Mainline to 16 trains an hour.

These are the same lines used by East Midlands Trains, the operator on the Midland Mainline.

Rail industry experts are trying to work out a timetable which fits the 16 Thameslink trains and EMT's existing services onto the same tracks while maintaining timetables.

The problem is that new electric Class 700 trains ordered for Thameslink – 115 are on order – do not go as fast as those used by East Midlands Trains, the 15 year old Meridian fleet and ageing High Speed Trains (Intercity 125), now nearly 40 years old. EMT trains run at 125mph and Thameslink's Siemens Class 700 at 100mph.

In crude terms, Thameslinks can only run 16 trains an hour if EMT trains run more slowly so they don't crash.

The complexity does not stop there. First, the trains are timetabled together to Bedford but going north to Leicester, Nottingham and beyond, EMT's trains will have to weave round other trains and freight, possibly missing their timetable path.
nguba no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SEOUL | Projects & Construction inno4321 City/Metro Compilations 2084 January 21st, 2020 03:42 AM
SEOUL | Public Transport Brillemeister Subways and Urban Transport 421 January 10th, 2020 12:57 AM
MISC | Fantasy Network Maps beta29 Subways and Urban Transport 1864 September 7th, 2019 11:13 PM
Korea Rail Transport / 대한민국의 철도 Sr.Horn Projects and Construction / 건설 프로젝트 55 June 28th, 2019 12:45 PM
WEBSITES LISTING - A comprehensive list of LINKS to Local/Newcastle Area Websites Newcastle Historian Newcastle Metro Area 21 June 29th, 2010 04:04 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us