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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #121
Matthias Offodile
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donīt mind my countless faults, I am just writing too quickly, hence all the faults creepinīin.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:32 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile View Post


Sorry, but I know Nigeria better than you do ...the main construction companies are not Chinese in Nigeria...but either Nigeria or joint ventuires with Europeans, companies that are very long established in nigeria already....and when a Nigerian wants expertise (when there is a local lack) he doesnīt go to a Chinese but to a European who provide the soft ware...Tinapa City for example was not built by Chinse but Nigeria, South African and german construction companies....many more examples abound.

and the amount of construction that happend in Nigeria in the 70īs/early 80īs is uncomparable to what happens nowadays, all the multi-lane highways, the tons of flyovers, construction of Abuja, industrial mega plants, auto car assembly plants, all date back to this goldne era ...Nigeria was considered to become the next brazil at that time...Nigeria at that era didnīt have any stupid idiots bursting pipelines and so on...or oil that was stolen.
...Nigeria was once producing and exporting cars like SA today...we all destroyed it..and westerners are not to blame for it!

and why did China come to Africa? Because European companies left a void due to all the drama that unforlded in the mid 80īs and 90īs....and Asia started booming like mad.



Matthias, have you forgotten what Shell is doing in Nigeria? Shell is corrupt and buys people and destroys a lot of environment.
A lot of areas in the Niger Delta are totally destroyed by Shell..

Shell isn't doing fair business. The promised since the sixties to give some of the oil money back to the people to build schools, infrastructure etc but they have done nothing of this..
Chinese companies do fair business. They want oil and resources but in return they build infrastructure, schools, etc..
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:38 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile View Post
Butembo21, as for Nigeria I do have to correct you...Nigeria has undergone a massive building boom in the 1970īs to mid 80īs and it was jointly done by Nigerians and Westerners...and the biggest traing parthers of Nigeria is not China but Western powers.

The revitalization program in Lagos is done performed by Chinese people.

My father who is etnhically full Nigeria would prefer a European as a parther instead of a Chinese...so donīt lump all countries together, please. My father is not pleased about Chinese presence in Nigeria...he says it is too much!

Nigeria is not CAR where a new stadium built by the Chinese will win you friends.




What does the US do for Nigeria in return for the oil?
US companies invest only in oil in Nigeria.
Look to Angola, Zambia, Libya, Sudan, Algeria etc what the Chinese are doing there. They invest in all sectors, help train people, modernize their bankingsystem, agriculture etc.


Nigeria can better do business with China then with the west.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:43 PM   #124
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What about Gulf Arab countries???

Even in Angola which gets extremely high praise in this forum has had poor management of it's oil wealth. Corruption is rife and millions of Angolans have yet to see any improvement. Equatorial Guinea is another sad story, money is money whether the Chinese buy or extract it or western nations mismanagement of the revenue is root of the curse.

Angola is doing now a better job then Venezuela, Bolivia and Mexico who also have oil or gaz..

Venezuela has a lot of oil, but a lot of people live in poverty and slums. And Chavez uses only the oil to buy food, subsidize health care, education etc.
Mexico has oil but is very corrupt and only the elite profits from it.

Bolivia has gaz, but only the whites profit from it. The Indians still live in extreme poverty.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:55 PM   #125
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Quote:
What does the US do for Nigeria in return for the oil?
US companies invest only in oil in Nigeria.
Look to Angola, Zambia, Libya, Sudan, Algeria etc what the Chinese are doing there. They invest in all sectors, help train people, modernize their bankingsystem, agriculture etc.


Nigeria can better do business with China then with the west
I was talking about European companies, we all know that Americans are only interested in oil

Quote:
Matthias, have you forgotten what Shell is doing in Nigeria? Shell is corrupt and buys people and destroys a lot of environment.
A lot of areas in the Niger Delta are totally destroyed by Shell..
True, but the very same company wins prizes in Oman for good corporrate and envirnomentally-friendly governance....Nigerian corrupt officials are to blame for this...if Shell did that elsewhere I would blame Shell but it is only happening in Nigeria, so tthe Nigerian corrupt government is to be blamed for it who gives a toss for its people.

Quote:
Shell isn't doing fair business. The promised since the sixties to give some of the oil money back to the people to build schools, infrastructure etc but they have done nothing of this..
Chinese companies do fair business. They want oil and resources but in return they build infrastructure, schools, etc..
Really, then show to me the schools, please!

Shell paid the money but some corrupt official took the money...thatīs Nigeria.


it is just amusing to read some comments of yours. blaming the West for everything and donīt look into mirror....and it is even funnier that those who blame the West are the ones enjoying a good life with generous welfare programmes in a Western country. Contradictory... like Africa itself!
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Old July 10th, 2009, 01:11 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile View Post
I was talking about European companies, we all know that Americans are only interested in oil



True, but the very same company wins prizes in Oman for good corporrate and envirnomentally-friendly governance....Nigerian corrupt officials are to blame for this...if Shell did that elsewhere I would blame Shell but it is only happening in Nigeria, so tthe Nigerian corrupt government is to be blamed for it who gives a toss for its people.



Really, then show to me the schools, please!

Shell paid the money but some corrupt official took the money...thatīs Nigeria.


it is just amusing to read some comments of yours. blaming the West for everything and donīt look into mirror....and it is even funnier that those who blame the West are the ones enjoying a good life with generous welfare programmes in a Western country. Contradictory... like Africa itself!



I don't blame the west for everything. I blame only Shell and the Nigerian goverment.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #127
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From my day to day interraction, the question on everyones lips in E. Africa is what an oil rich Uganda under president Museveni will mean for the rest of the region, DRC included (please no word wars/country bashing).
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Old July 10th, 2009, 05:31 PM   #128
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I think Uganda's case may be slightly different. Obviously we can expect some dirty hands in the cookie jar but alot of the money will go into infrastructure projects and maybe social welfare projects. Something along the lines of what goes on in Venezuela.

I believe this will definitely boost Uganda's GDP, probably to achieve the highest GDP in East Africa, but my prayer is that the citizens of Uganda benefit from the oil. I will be looking at Uganda's HDI more closely once the oil money starts trickling in.
Kenguy, after reading about Uganda yesterday in the Africa report, i have a more optimistic outlook about the oil and what it could mean for the ordinary person. The deputy energy minister stated that Uganda had the advantage of studying the countries which had progressed with oil and those which had not. He said that the government did not want to embarass itself regarding the oil. He further stated that the government was considering establishing a public corporation which would run the oil business and earmark profits exclusively for infrastructure development. It all sounded rather promising but we all know that talk is cheap. I am cautiously optimistic and will also be watching that HDI with you .
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Old July 10th, 2009, 07:10 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile View Post


Sorry, but I know Nigeria better than you do ...the main construction companies are not Chinese in Nigeria...but either Nigeria or joint ventuires with Europeans, companies that are very long established in nigeria already....and when a Nigerian wants expertise (when there is a local lack) he doesnīt go to a Chinese but to a European who provide the soft ware...Tinapa City for example was not built by Chinse but Nigeria, South African and german construction companies....many more examples abound.

and the amount of construction that happend in Nigeria in the 70īs/early 80īs is uncomparable to what happens nowadays, all the multi-lane highways, the tons of flyovers, construction of Abuja, industrial mega plants, auto car assembly plants, all date back to this goldne era ...Nigeria was considered to become the next brazil at that time...Nigeria at that era didnīt have any stupid idiots bursting pipelines and so on...or oil that was stolen.
...Nigeria was once producing and exporting cars like SA today...we all destroyed it..and westerners are not to blame for it!

and why did China come to Africa? Because European companies left a void due to all the drama that unforlded in the mid 80īs and 90īs....and Asia started booming like mad.
Not true. lots of Nigerian say it's Chinese doing most constructions.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #130
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Angola is doing now a better job then Venezuela, Bolivia and Mexico who also have oil or gaz..

Venezuela has a lot of oil, but a lot of people live in poverty and slums. And Chavez uses only the oil to buy food, subsidize health care, education etc.
Mexico has oil but is very corrupt and only the elite profits from it.

Bolivia has gaz, but only the whites profit from it. The Indians still live in extreme poverty.
Angola is nowhere near doing as well as either Venezuela or Mexico. In terms of development or corruption. Yes the economy is growing a lot faster but it began from a lower base. Mexico is having a very bad year, combination of gang violence, swine flu and dependence on U.S economy has dragged it into a recession. But the overall fundamentals you cannot compare.

Mexico's HDI is .842 compared to Angola's .446 and you say only the elites benefit in Mexico? Heck even Bolivia, South America's poorest country has an HDI .695.

The best way to tell of who "benefits" is to compare GDP per capita with actual HDI. Gdp per capita can be inflated if a small elite make a lot of money. As you can see in Angola's case their is a huge gap between gdp per capita and total HDI, in Mexico for example their is also a gap but the other way around. Which tells us that in Mexico the poor do well in certain social indicators.

[IMG]http://i31.************/2uxwwvn.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i28.************/ayoj6o.gif[/IMG]
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Old July 10th, 2009, 09:38 PM   #131
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Alex, Angola was years in a civil war. That is why they have a low HID.
Give them time to rebuild their country and they will have a better HID.

Alex you can not deny that Angola is doing a better job then Venezuela with Chavez who spends half of the oil income to import food and subsidize poor people who stay poor. Tourisme, industry, agriculture, foreign investors etc have all decreased in Venezuela.
Bolivia problem is that only the white profit from the gaz etc. The Indians are extreme poor. That is why Morales wants to reform the gaz sector. But I don't think that will happen.



Angola is investing in social housing, agriculture, tourisme, property etc and that is why they are doing a better job then Venezuela, Bolivia etc.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #132
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Alex, Angola was years in a civil war. That is why they have a low HID.
Give them time to rebuild their country and they will have a better HID.

Alex you can not deny that Angola is doing a better job then Venezuela with Chavez who spends half of the oil income to import food and subsidize poor people who stay poor. Tourisme, industry, agriculture, foreign investors etc have all decreased in Venezuela.
Bolivia problem is that only the white profit from the gaz etc. The Indians are extreme poor. That is why Morales wants to reform the gaz sector. But I don't think that will happen.

Angola is investing in social housing, agriculture, tourisme, property etc and that is why they are doing a better job then Venezuela, Bolivia etc.
Exactly,

At the independence Angola's litaracy was very very very low. The most uneducated than any african country. The the war with Western and Communist help . 30 YEARS OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.


ANGOLAN RECONSTRUCTION the Largest on the continent. and it only been less than Ten years.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 11:30 PM   #133
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Correction, it is only five years!!! Reconstruction began in 2003/04, Butembo21!

Alex roney, if Angola hadnīt been bombed back to stone age, its HDI would have been e among the highest in Africa now...Angola was comparatively well-equipped in terms of infratsrcture at time of independence which could have easily been built upon in the years ahead.

Unfortunately, the country was denied this chance and was viciously plunged into Africaīs most devasting civil war that sent 600 000 whites (almost 10% of the entire population!) and many more Blacks and mulattos fleeing the country in droves.

Angola īs economy shrank by minus 8% on average throughout the 1980īs , utter collapse of a country...thatīs worse than Zimbabwe!!

PLEASE WHEN YOU JUDGE A COUNTRY TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT AS WELL!

Thanks ...and please donīt compare Mexico to Angola...the latter would look different if it was exposed to the same gruelties Angola has undergone.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 12:13 AM   #134
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Alex, Angola was years in a civil war. That is why they have a low HID.
Give them time to rebuild their country and they will have a better HID.

Alex you can not deny that Angola is doing a better job then Venezuela with Chavez who spends half of the oil income to import food and subsidize poor people who stay poor. Tourisme, industry, agriculture, foreign investors etc have all decreased in Venezuela.
Bolivia problem is that only the white profit from the gaz etc. The Indians are extreme poor. That is why Morales wants to reform the gaz sector. But I don't think that will happen.



Angola is investing in social housing, agriculture, tourisme, property etc and that is why they are doing a better job then Venezuela, Bolivia etc.
I'm only responding to your assertion that in Mexico and Venezuela only the elites benefit from oil wealth. Yet I've proven to you that their is a huge gap between gdp per capita and HDI in Angola which begs the question; if the economy is expanding so much (as a result gdp per capita) why does Angola lag so far behind that impressive growth regarding social indicators? In Mexico and Venezuela social indicators are superior to gdp per capita.

Mexico is in quite a bad situation from the reasons I've stated. Venezuela's economic system is totally flawed (I'm not a socialist). But to compare it to Angola is getting quite far fetched. Especially in the case between Angola and Venezuela where both governments are heavily involved in the economy.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #135
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I'm only responding to your assertion that in Mexico and Venezuela only the elites benefit from oil wealth. Yet I've proven to you that their is a huge gap between gdp per capita and HDI in Angola which begs the question; if the economy is expanding so much (as a result gdp per capita) why does Angola lag so far behind that impressive growth regarding social indicators? In Mexico and Venezuela social indicators are superior to gdp per capita.

Mexico is in quite a bad situation from the reasons I've stated. Venezuela's economic system is totally flawed (I'm not a socialist). But to compare it to Angola is getting quite far fetched. Especially in the case between Angola and Venezuela where both governments are heavily involved in the economy.
guys we r talking about East Africa like ken guy said comparing Oil rich Uganda potential with others but u r only minding about other regions in west , south America , Guys style up this is East Africa
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Old July 12th, 2009, 03:19 PM   #136
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guys we r talking about East Africa like ken guy said comparing Oil rich Uganda potential with others but u r only minding about other regions in west , south America , Guys style up this is East Africa

You do love the word "rich" dont you?
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Old July 12th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #137
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Wherever there is more Oil there are Corruptions. Uganda will not be an exception. For sure there will be lots of Corruptions than now. when the Oil start making money.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 07:10 PM   #138
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Wherever there is more Oil there are Corruptions. Uganda will not be an exception. For sure there will be lots of Corruptions than now. when the Oil start making money.
I agree with you in principle and if you look at examples around the world proves that point. But I go back to the Norway example, which shows that having a lot of oil won't always equate corruption. Norway is ranked 14th in terms of transparency.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 07:14 PM   #139
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Old July 12th, 2009, 07:25 PM   #140
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I agree with you in principle and if you look at examples around the world proves that point. But I go back to the Norway example, which shows that having a lot of oil won't always equate corruption. Norway is ranked 14th in terms of transparency.
I said for most , not all. and Countries like in africa where they are melting pots. it's garanteed.
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