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Old March 7th, 2018, 04:57 AM   #61
germantower
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I dont feel like just because a NYT critic think it belongs to an elite group of towers means I have to value his opinion. I still have my own view. I also didnt say I dont care. I even said that I agree that the Union Carbide has details that set it apart from the other international style buildings. Yet even if it might look decent from the outside, the interiors except the lobby of mid century office towers are horrible and offer not the quality of todays standarts for class A office space. The Union Carbide building also totally wrecks every vibrancy at street level with its setback nature from park avenue and security entrances and walls what not. Also lety assume we preserve this building that is almost 60 years old. How long should this tower occupy a whole block of the city and make it unable to adapt to todays standarts? 100 years? 200 ? Maybe 500? And to be honest, I feel like the people complaining about this tower go are the same people that would protest if a simmilar design would have been proposed nowadays. They mostly stir this up because its old. While ignoring the 40 million Chase would pay to redevelop public space on Park. And a new possibly bright tower could do wonders for Park Avenue. Maybe all the towers that will be redeveloped could add street level retail to make this part of the city livelier after office hours, create more jobs and such.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 04:12 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshallKnight View Post
I'll refer you to the New York Times obituary for the architect, Natalie de Blois. In it, architecture and built environment critic David Dunlap refers to de Blois' work on "three of the most important corporate landmarks of the 1950s and ‘60s — the headquarters of Lever Brothers, Pepsi-Cola and Union Carbide".

You may not care for it. And you may not think there's inherent value in the works of notable women who made early strides in fields dominated by men. But when the architecture critic of New York's paper of record thinks it belongs in that esteemed company, we shouldn't pretend this is just "some box."
Pardon me for the off topic, but is that the same company that caused the Bhopal Disaster?

I would also like it if this building weren't demolished, I would rather see some of it's neighbors replaced. Still, I don't get what makes this building so special, it looks pretty much the same as the building from across the street?

270 Park Avenue


277 Park Avenue
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Old March 7th, 2018, 04:55 PM   #63
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I don't think JP Morgan will demolish the tower portion of this building. I think they'll just demolish the annex and build a building similar in size to 1 wtc. The annex has a large enough footprint to support such a tower.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 06:04 PM   #64
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I don't think JP Morgan will demolish the tower portion of this building. I think they'll just demolish the annex and build a building similar in size to 1 wtc. The annex has a large enough footprint to support such a tower.
While I am in-favor of that idea I think this is one of those times where the eccentricities of NY real estate law and zoning come into play. I think that the air rights they are buying up are so that they can build taller than what they have, technically the air rights for the current tower are currently in use so any additional air right would not get the new building to 1200. Also chase is going to what is most cost efficient for them which is one massive tower on the site.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 06:49 PM   #65
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Why should news articles allude to the tallest building to be voluntarily demolished, if Chase would want to demo the annex only?
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Old March 7th, 2018, 07:15 PM   #66
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I dont feel like just because a NYT critic think it belongs to an elite group of towers means I have to value his opinion. I still have my own view.
I wasn't saying anyone had to like it, just addressing the question of who considers it historically significant and why.

I agree there's plenty wrong with it from an urbanist point of view, and that the business case for replacing it instead of updating and preserving is quite clear. But there are also plenty of redeeming qualities, both architectural and historical, that make a compelling case (at least to me) that preservation should be considered.

Everyone should express their opinion. I just get frustrated when this forum jumps into "all preservationists are NIMBY SJW scumbags" mode. It's lazy, doesn't leave room for debate, and delegitimizes the views of many forumers.

Personally, I think the best outcome for 270 Park would be some kind of compromise: granting additional development rights for an adjoining tower in exchange for preserving/updating the original and making improvements to the streetscape; maybe even rebuilding the base to extend to the sidewalk, reversing some of the urbanist sins of the International movement. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 10:06 PM   #67
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I think that 270 Park is a beautiful building, and gives me that distinct "Park Avenue feel" when I walk by it. That being said, as Goodybear has pointed out, 277 is essentially the exact same building. And frankly, 299 is as well.

While there are plenty of other Park Ave buildings I would trade in a heartbeat for demolition (such as 300), the enormous size of the plot could lend itself to something truly amazing. That is, if JPMorgan is willing to pay for it.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 11:13 PM   #68
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Quote:
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Everyone should express their opinion. I just get frustrated when this forum jumps into "all preservationists are NIMBY SJW scumbags" mode. It's lazy, doesn't leave room for debate, and delegitimizes the views of many forumers.

Personally, I think the best outcome for 270 Park would be some kind of compromise: granting additional development rights for an adjoining tower in exchange for preserving/updating the original and making improvements to the streetscape; maybe even rebuilding the base to extend to the sidewalk, reversing some of the urbanist sins of the International movement. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.
Can I get a "HELL YEAH!"?

I agree with you whole heartedly on both counts here. Accusing anyone making a case for preservation of being a NIMBY is in fact lazy AF. If Chase was proposing a building swap, taking over another building like 300 Park and building its 1200 footer there, I don't think nearly so many people would be taking issue. I like your compromise approach here, if everyone involved got on board, I think it could work quite nicely. I'd open up that plaza, myself. Ditch that Goddess-awful security fence that's there now, making the building seem like it's in a cage. Redo the plaza so that it's a nice place to sit and hang out, make it welcoming and people friendly.

Now, onto some other things. First of all, about Bhopal- I'm getting tired of people blaming buildings for the sins of their occupants. Bhopal was a tragedy, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But I'd prefer to lay the blame at the feet of negligent humans. They're the ones who cut corners, deferred maintenance, and might even have committed acts of sabotage. Not an office building.
As for 277 Park Avenue, 277 was built after 270 (270 opened in 1960, 277 in 1964), so I suspect that 277's architects, Emery Roth and Sons might have been aiming for their building to play nicely with its neighbor across the street. They do look like a couple, facing each other across the avenue. I like how they work together, to be honest.
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Old March 8th, 2018, 05:55 AM   #69
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My point is that I think that the people who want this to be preserved would likely protest against a proposal to erect a same tower like the existing one too. While I understand them saying this tower has values other international style towers dont, i just feel the wanted compromise is nothing more but a pipe dream. The east side rezoning has kicked of potential of redevelopment, no one who owns a building in this area will just not use it because people want them to not. Also midcentury towers often have columns between the core and the outer walls that arent floor plans that are cutting edge. They reduce flexibility. i also feel like we should preserve some of the international style towers, since they are a part of the NY vibe too. There should be a portion of them remainig that add to the diversity of styles in the city. I just dont see it happening here.
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Old March 8th, 2018, 07:52 AM   #70
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Quote:
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Can I get a "HELL YEAH!"?

I agree with you whole heartedly on both counts here. Accusing anyone making a case for preservation of being a NIMBY is in fact lazy AF. If Chase was proposing a building swap, taking over another building like 300 Park and building its 1200 footer there, I don't think nearly so many people would be taking issue. I like your compromise approach here, if everyone involved got on board, I think it could work quite nicely. I'd open up that plaza, myself. Ditch that Goddess-awful security fence that's there now, making the building seem like it's in a cage. Redo the plaza so that it's a nice place to sit and hang out, make it welcoming and people friendly.

Now, onto some other things. First of all, about Bhopal- I'm getting tired of people blaming buildings for the sins of their occupants. Bhopal was a tragedy, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But I'd prefer to lay the blame at the feet of negligent humans. They're the ones who cut corners, deferred maintenance, and might even have committed acts of sabotage. Not an office building.
As for 277 Park Avenue, 277 was built after 270 (270 opened in 1960, 277 in 1964), so I suspect that 277's architects, Emery Roth and Sons might have been aiming for their building to play nicely with its neighbor across the street. They do look like a couple, facing each other across the avenue. I like how they work together, to be honest.
Apologies, but there appears to be a misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to in any way blame the building for the disaster. I was merely asking if this was the same company headquartered in this building. Sorry if it came across the wrong way.
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Old March 8th, 2018, 05:44 PM   #71
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If they aquire enough air rights from the neighbouring buildings (which have air rights to sell, if the current owners do not replace them with larger buildings), they could build a really huge building there.

My idea would be something like the CTF Finance Center in Tianjin. I moved it to this location with Google Earth:



As you can see, it is still a little too wide at the base, but only a few metres. If it was just a little slimmer, it would fit perfectly into a normal block:



You can download the KMZ file for Google Earth here and have a look at it from all perspectives:
http://www.skyscraperfan.com/ssc/CTF270.kmz

That was just a first idea, but of course you could try it with any other tower, if a 3D model is available. I also also replaced Madison Square Garden with Shanghai Tower and it really looks nice there.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 01:50 AM   #72
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I don't like this. That's a very banal "look at me" design. We need something that is elegant and timeless and blends in, not a Chinese-style supertall from the 2000s.

I want a 1,200' tower that looks like Chicago's proposed Holy Name supertall: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chor...83/c03_op2.jpg
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Old March 9th, 2018, 02:42 AM   #73
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Just no more boxes, seriously. They have a huge plot to play around with, why just build another boring box?
I agree with Twopsy, New York could use some Asian supertalls. I'm dying for a Look-at-Me tower in New York.
I want a Shanghai Tower plopped right in the middle of Park Ave!

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Old March 9th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #74
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Actually, I think that the CTF Tianjin looks pretty elegant to me. I just don't think it would fit in at Park Avenue, but I really hope they come up with a design that:
1. Stands out enough to be noticed,
2. Still blends in with the rest.
As long as it is not another box I'm happy. I don't have anything against boxes, but looking at post #71, more than 50% of the skyscrapers surrounding this tower in that image are boxes. We need something different. I wouldn't mind if they built an art-deco tower though, that really was the time when the best designs were built in NYC.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 12:19 AM   #75
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Another incredible project at the center of the world. The demolition of 51 East 42nd for 1 Vanderbilt was already a spectacle, this will be something else entirely. Not even the destruction of the Singer Building will compare.


Today is the day by Roman Kruglov, on Flickr

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Old March 10th, 2018, 03:56 AM   #76
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^I love the pic, I disagree with the comment though- I wouldn't consider it "epic" or "cool" to see 270 Park come down, I'd find it incredibly sad. Some of my happiest memories are of walking the streets of Midtown, that stretch of Park Avenue being one of my favorite places. Many of the skyscrapers there have come to feel like old friends, and seeing one of my favorites come down would hurt like hell, regardless of what anyone else thinks of its architectural merit.
In fact, it was 270 Park Avenue who coaxed me further down Park Avenue than I'd previously gone exploring, really paying attention. (I'd found Seagram, and taken quite a liking to 450 Park too, but 270 definitely got me walking further down the street instead of turning off towards Lexington Avenue where the Citicorp tower is)
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Old March 10th, 2018, 04:09 AM   #77
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Arent you a bit just a slight bit overreacting?

I definitly see beauty in this tower and i can also understamd the wish to preserve it, but come on.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 07:05 AM   #78
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No, I really would miss it, and would hate to see it come to such an end. Perhaps you would have to be an Animist like me to fully understand. Nobody wants to see something they admire and feel fondness towards torn apart piece by piece, nor do they have much use for others who seem to be positively bloodthirsty to see it happen.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 11:21 AM   #79
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I wish the company owning the tower would buy 375 Pearl instead to replace it with something new. Now THAT building is a monstrosity.

Photo taken by Tectonic and found on New York YIMBY.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 01:50 AM   #80
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I wish the company owning the tower would buy 375 Pearl instead to replace it with something new. Now THAT building is a monstrosity.

Photo taken by Tectonic and found on New York YIMBY.
I want to get rich solely so that I can buy this tower and destroy it in spectacular fashion
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