Ramat Gan-Givatayim-Bnei Brak Projects #2 - Page 10 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > Middle East > Local Forums > Israeli Forums > Projects > Gush Dan


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 21st, 2019, 01:22 PM   #181
Kalamai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 826
Likes (Received): 675

Ynhockey, so, your objections are not about the project itself, but about "Why not a park instead", and about your suggestion that since it is in Bnei Brak, the residents will be mainly from religious community? Right?
__________________
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain
Kalamai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old October 21st, 2019, 01:52 PM   #182
Kalamai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 826
Likes (Received): 675

Actually, there is still supposed to be a green area along the river.



https://www.nadlancenter.co.il/artic...A9%D7%A7%D7%9C
__________________
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain
Kalamai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 02:13 PM   #183
Ynhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Petah Tikva
Posts: 3,530
Likes (Received): 8028

Quote:
Ynhockey, so, your objections are not about the project itself, but about "Why not a park instead", and about your suggestion that since it is in Bnei Brak, the residents will be mainly from religious community? Right?
Kind of, but I wouldn't put it in the same way:

1. Park: I don't think it should cover the entire area, but as far as I remember there were old plans that would make it bigger. This is appropriate, not just because of the green lung that the entire metropolitan needs, but also important for Bnei Brak itself, which probably has less green space per-capita than any other city (and there are very real disputes with Ramat Gan about park areas on that basis).

2. Saying "religious community" here is misleading. Even just saying Haredim would be misleading; Bnei Brak's Haredim have an unusually low level of integration even compared to other Haredi communities in Israel. In other words, you are putting a dense neighborhood in a strategic location next to an IR station and between two major high-tech zones, and the neighborhood is aimed at people who largely don't travel with IR and don't work (even less so in high tech); in the middle of a secular/non-Haredi-religious area, no less.

An example of how it's done differently: in Jerusalem, the Central Bus Station area is Haredi, both from the north and from the west, but they are developing the area for the non-Haredi population now, because the Haredim will not benefit as much from the amazing transport and business infrastructure being built there.

And finally, as I said before, it's a shame to put incredibly bad architecture (which stems from the community's requirements) in such a central area.
__________________

FelixMadero liked this post
Ynhockey está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 03:35 PM   #184
Kalamai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 826
Likes (Received): 675

Ynhockey, I have the impression that you have some strange prejudice against a part of the Israeli citizens. I lived in Bnei Brak for a few years, and being a completely secular person, did not experience any particular problems... Maybe you have some other experience?

I also would like to see more open space in the center of the country, like Holon dunes. But we all know that it's unrealistic. So what is the difference? Аre you so outraged just because they are religious people, and want to live in their neighborhoods according to their traditions?

As for the project itself, its layout and architecture... What kind of problems do you see there? Maybe you could provide renderings or something and point what exactly you don't like?
__________________
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain

Golan89 liked this post
Kalamai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 07:59 PM   #185
Elkhanan1
Registered User
 
Elkhanan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,845
Likes (Received): 448

Ynhockey has laid out his objections clearly and rationally. I think you're reacting emotionally. He objects to this particular sub-group of religious people, this particular sub-group of Haredim, with its particular sub-set of social challenges, being in this particular area, taking this particular urban form. He's being very specific and mindful not to generalize to all religious or Haredi people. But, somehow, you've jumped on him for being anti-religious.
__________________

Ynhockey liked this post
Elkhanan1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 09:26 PM   #186
Yoav
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,215
Likes (Received): 463

@Ynhockey and @Kalamai

Your argument made me curious about this project and I googled it a little.
What I found that it is not residential at all but will be a part of Bnei Brak's CBD.
in the most up to date 'TABA' (named בב/572), there's not a single residential plot. Most is Commercial, little public use (south to Em-HaMoshavot rd.), and of course the park.


Yoav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 10:03 PM   #187
matrix2020
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,557
Likes (Received): 2886

Actually Haredim in Bney Brak are not particularly extreme and isolationist.
This title most likely belongs to Jerusalem (Mea Shearim) or possibly to Beit Shemesh.
Haredim in Bney Brak are somewhat more reasonable and certainly less prone to violence (the sort of throwing stones at Shabbat offenders and such).
Now regarding parks:
Granted there aren't many in Bney Brak, but to be fair the amount of cars in Bney Brak is also lower then in other parts of Gush Dan.
Bney Brak is probably the town with highest percentage of its citizens using public transport in the whole of Gush Dan.
There isn't much industry to speak of either.
So, I wouldn't say its so bad in Bney Brak regarding air pollution.
Granted more parks would be nice, but if the locals aren't particularly interested, then I suppose its their choice?
matrix2020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2019, 11:46 PM   #188
Ynhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Petah Tikva
Posts: 3,530
Likes (Received): 8028

@Yoav: Yes, I think that was a previous plan, which made more sense. Now a residential area is being built. I'd love to be wrong about this, but have seen so many references to it that it doesn't seem possible that it's incorrect info. For example:

https://www.olizki.com/portfolio-ite...#1504;י/ (from the makers of this video)

https://nadlan.walla.co.il/item/3158540

Quote:
הותמ"ל החליטה היום (רביעי) לאשר את תוכנית תמ"ל 1045 בבני ברק. מדובר בתוכנית לבניית 2,100 יחידות דיור חדשות בעיר על שטח שעל פי התוכנית הקיימת היה מיועד לתעסוקה וכת שונה יעודו.
@Matrix: Bnei Brak is actually in many ways an example of good urbanism, as you said yourself. However, since it didn't result in from proper urban planning or some grassroots urbanist movement, it also doesn't take many things into account, like green spaces. Green spaces aren't necessary just to reduce air pollution (actually I don't know how much they help if the rest of the city is trashed), but also to provide recreational areas, among other things. And then you get quotes like this (source: https://www.ligdol.co.il/newchannels...&channelid=4):

Quote:
אגב, הפארק גובל ברחוב חזון אי"ש בני ברק בשער המזרחי ומושך אליו תושבים משתי הערים, בעיקר בשבתות. בעבר פורסמה דרישה מצד תושבי רמת גן לסגור את השער מצד בני ברק, בטענה שחרדים המגיעים לפארק בשבתות מעירים להם על חילול שבת.
I don't know if their complains are true, and it seems a bit silly to me tbh—the park is public and anyone can come. But it does pose the question of why residents of both Ramat Gan and Bnei Brak suffer from this and that problem, and no one accuses the real culprit, the City of Bnei Brak, of not planning enough green spaces. Also: I think overall Yakon Park is much better situated than Ariel Sharon Park to be a major metropolitan green lung, with enough space for recreational areas, artificial lakes, concert venues, etc. Expanding it eastward to Petah Tikva would be amazing, and to do that properly the Bnei Brak part needs to exist as well. (note: the irony isn't lost on me that PTK isn't doing anything to build a park there either, but at least it's not zoning anything else so far).

Last edited by Ynhockey; October 21st, 2019 at 11:54 PM.
Ynhockey está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2019, 09:13 AM   #189
Yoav
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,215
Likes (Received): 463

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynhockey View Post
@Yoav: Yes, I think that was a previous plan, which made more sense. Now a residential area is being built. I'd love to be wrong about this, but have seen so many references to it that it doesn't seem possible that it's incorrect info
You're right.
the relevant plan is called תמל/1045.
Yoav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2019, 05:19 PM   #190
matrix2020
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,557
Likes (Received): 2886

@Ynhockey, certainly Bnei Brak has a problem with green areas and lack of recreation options for its inhabitants which creates more pressure on neighboring cities as you pointed out.
Its just the the age-old problem of lack of money in poor municipalities.
Simply put, Bnei Brak can't afford a park which will incur expenses for maintenance and not pay for itself even partially like a residential area would.
So either way this park would have to be paid for, by someone else (not residents of Bnei Brak itself) by financing it with Ministry of Interior, or as parks in neighboring cities have to pay for recreational needs of Bnei Brak residents by having to clean up after Bnei Brak residents after they visit parks in Ramat Gan or elsewhere in Gush Dan.
matrix2020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2019, 12:50 PM   #191
Ynhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Petah Tikva
Posts: 3,530
Likes (Received): 8028

I think the thinking than Bnei Brak is poor is outdated. Today their spending per-resident is almost as high as that of Holon, and when BBC is completed, Bnei Brak will be among the richest cities in Israel. True, it has been poor historically, but that shouldn't affect the future planning of green spaces. Actually I don't think it should have in the past either: glass/dirt areas don't need much maintenance, and can be left in that state for any time until money is found.
Ynhockey está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2019, 06:37 PM   #192
Kalamai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 826
Likes (Received): 675

Do we have a thread about this "Bass Tower" project ?



https://www.globes.co.il/news/articl...did=1001304960
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-5...gan-1001305002

It should be just next to the Amot Atrium tower...
__________________
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain

zuki/, Dr. Rabbit, Azazel, I do liked this post

Last edited by Kalamai; October 28th, 2019 at 06:55 PM.
Kalamai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2019, 01:22 PM   #193
matrix2020
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,557
Likes (Received): 2886

We do.
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...post&t=2218214
matrix2020 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM   #194
avivster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 8,675
Likes (Received): 12805

RMG

Bar Ilan University Dorms
2 x 10 FL
t/o

civileng


__________________
Israel Forums
avivster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us