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Old March 27th, 2013, 12:59 AM   #381
Rizzato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Rizzato,

I think that you have hit the nail on the head with your understanding of how the collapse might have been prevented. Everything is down to energy.

The 18 floors of the WTC structure that collapsed contained a huge amount of potential energy that was accumulated as it was constructed thirty years prior to the collapse. All the energy expended by the cranes that lifted up the steel sections and hoppers of concrete over the course of many months would have been released as kinetic energy in a matter of seconds.

The only way that the steel structure could have arrested that collapse would have been by absorbing that energy in the bending and breaking of beams and columns as the structure fell. In effect, the steel structure would have acted as a cushion and would have slowed down the collapse until it stopped. Maybe three or four storeys would have been lost in the process but the remainder of the tower would have been left intact. The energy of collapse would be converted into heat and dispersed harmlessly.

In effect, that is what happened to the Marriott hotel that was hit by falling debris when Tower 2 collapsed. Photos show a large area of collapse of the upper storeys but this did not extend down to ground level.

What prevented that from happening in the case of the WTC was the structural arrangement. With the columns on the perimeter, the mass of building simply pushed them out of the way as it fell. In many photos and videos you can see these otherwise undamaged columns falling away from the path of the collapsing structure. Their strength was useless in preventing the collapse.

Whilst it is not right to say that there was no resistance to the collapse, the amount of resistance would have been minimal as it was only provided by the lightweight floors designed only to take people and furniture loading - not 18,000 tonnes of building moving at speed.

Remember that whilst the WTC was a steel building, it was not technically a steel framed building as there was no frame of beams and columns as would have been found in a more conventional building. The structural arrangement was innovative in a building of that height and allowed large areas of unobstructed floor space. Also the steel structure was very efficient in providing both support to the building and lateral resistance to hurricane force winds. Unfortunately, it was not designed to resist the extreme loading condition that it experienced on September 11th 2001.

I am not at all offended that you want to find out more about how the structure collapsed. There have been so many conspiracy theories around and so much misinformation that it is good to find somebody who is not taken in by all of that.
Thanks Martin. I'm all for it.
If planes did hit the buildings, then these impacts, and collapse of upper floors, could have been enough to bring down the entire building.
I'll take what you've said and apply it to further research.
Good on you (and you Thatoneguy).. roll on WTC
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Old March 27th, 2013, 01:16 AM   #382
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Yeah, the collapse could also have been caused by aliens or the Russians, because nobody can prove that it wasn't. So yeah, nobody's 100% certain
Indeed!

Remember a game you used to play as a kid where you'd connect up little dots to make a picture? Here's some dots:





Indira Singh testimony regarding 'Ptech'.



.........dots.........
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Old March 27th, 2013, 04:18 AM   #383
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I remember they used be associated with them back in the 70s or 80s when they wanted to fight the Soviets but then they became enemies for obvious idealogical reasons and issues with military bases
Al Qaeda also hated the fact that the CIA and all of the United States supported Israel.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #384
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Yeah, the collapse could also have been caused by aliens or the Russians, because nobody can prove that it wasn't. So yeah, nobody's 100% certain
Exactly. I think that the modern enthusiasm for conspiracy theories dates back to the assassination of President Kennedy in 1963. That event was, in its day, as earth-shattering as 9/11 and gave birth to a huge number of conspiracy theories over the course of 30 years or more.

I was always interested in these theories but what finally killed my belief in them was to see an interview some years ago with the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald - the alleged sole assassin. By then he was quite an elderly man.

The brother revealed that when he first heard that the president had been assassinated and that Lee had been arrested on suspicion, he had instantly believed his brother to have been guilty and never believed that anyone else was involved.

Their mother had not wanted a second child and had treated Lee very badly. This made him develop extreme anger against society in general - as rejected children often do. That explained why he had become involved with communism and the Soviet Union. That was because Soviet communists were feared and loathed in the USA at that time. If he had lived in a communist country he would have become a capitalist sympathiser.

Of course, that wouldn't impress a convinced conspiracy theorist but, since this year it will be 50 years since the assassination, there aren't that many who still take an interest.

That is what will happen with 9/11 unless some new and convincing evidence turns up and, after twelve years that is less and less likely to happen.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #385
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It would seem that the 'conspiracy theorists' are wrong, because they are just a fringe group who holds little relevance to the normal lives of an average person, and you haven't heard their ideas on your nightly news.
Most evidence we have seen from that day, which conspiracy theorists use to make their points, is largely circumstantial and can be explained away.

However, there is in fact evidence that Computer Generated Imagery was used to show people in the windows of the WTC as the fire burned before the collapse.
Forum member Chapelo states he worked in an upper floor of the WTC, and confirmed the windows were 6 feet tall.
In this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBtbZPefASc, you will see people standing in windows with only their upper torsos visible
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Old March 29th, 2013, 04:05 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzato View Post
It would seem that the 'conspiracy theorists' are wrong, because they are just a fringe group who holds little relevance to the normal lives of an average person, and you haven't heard their ideas on your nightly news.
Most evidence we have seen from that day, which conspiracy theorists use to make their points, is largely circumstantial and can be explained away.

However, there is in fact evidence that Computer Generated Imagery was used to show people in the windows of the WTC as the fire burned before the collapse.
Forum member Chapelo states he worked in an upper floor of the WTC, and confirmed the windows were 6 feet tall.
In this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBtbZPefASc, you will see people standing in windows with only their upper torsos visible
Rizzato,I wonder if it is fair for me to say that there is some reversion process going on here? When, a few days ago we discussed the collapse of the WTC, you appeared to accept that there was a perfectly plausible theory for the collapse of the WTC that did not involve explosives. Now you've drifted back to the old conspiracy theories - much in the same way as someone whose given up alcohol decides to go on a bender with his old mates.

The conspiracy theorists are not wrong because we don't hear their views. They are wrong because, in my opinion at least, they are not correct.

In fact, just Google World Trade Center collapse and just see how many 'truther' websites you will come across for every serious discussion of the subject by a qualified professional.

I often think that the best way to confront the 'truther' argument is to subject it to the same scepticism that you would the 'official' argument.

For example, if what you say is true about those video images of people at the windows being CGI, then you surely have to accept that they did a very good job as they look very realistic. However, for some strange reason, they got the scale wrong. Does that sound right? You then have to ask the question, why on earth should they falsify images like that? Scores of people jumped from the towers so they must have climbed through the windows. So, if they climbed through the windows they must have been at the windows to start off with. So why create false images when real images must have been available?

This love of conspiracy theories seems to be part of the zeitgeist - possibly a reaction to the unquestioning loyalty that people used to have to their countries and which resulted in millions being killed in two world wars.

When Obama fluffed the lines of his presidential oath back in 2009, he had to take it again because the authorities feared that it would feed conspiracy theories about him not really being president. It is getting ridiculous.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 05:26 AM   #387
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@ Rizzato Computer generated imagery? Are you saying the victims were fake?

They're clearly leaning outwards, making them appear larger. They appear straight whereas the walls appear at an angle, also proving they were leaning far outwards.


Being a former "truther" I'm so disappointed that I was so easily led to believe such nonsense.
And I only really did it because I just wanted to be against the 'media.' Then I reached the age of reason and began to question even the ones who tell me to question. I then realized what absolutely idiotic things these people push, and how they have actually skewed and even made up evidence. All those quotes edited and taken out of context, spitting on the victims faces and making mysteries out of nothing... And why do they do it? To attract naive people to buy their DVDs, like I once did. Unacceptable.

I strongly question what media around the world says and I can usually detect government BS. But when you question, you must listen to the answers, not ignore them like the 911 truthers do.

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Old March 29th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #388
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Unrelating to the 'truth'er argument, I just today realized how deadly afraid of heights I am, when in a building. I went up only nine stories in an abandoned apartment building, looked over the balcony, and felt dizzy. Imagine what the WTC jumpers must have felt 100 stories up...

I guess the steel bars of the ESB and the glass of the CN tower made me feel less scared of heights when I went up them, but when the ledge is empty, it's awful.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #389
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Martin, I assure you there is no reversion here, and looking over my post, I could have worded it better. I simply meant to explain why most people think conspiracy theorists are 100% wrong. Not you personally, it was more of a general statement, and I didn't mean to 'defend' conspiracy theorists.
Neutrally is the only way I approach this subject, and you will see no insane ramblings.
I draw no conclusions from this video, because I hope it was a rogue video.

All I know(if Chapelo is correct) is that the WTC windows were 6 feet tall. The windows went down to the floor, or just about to the floor, so there would be no leaning out. The bottom of the window would never be at the same level as a person's waist.
This information should be disputed, and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.
I don't mean to trouble anyone, and such discussion can touch a nerve, definitely. It is not intended, and frankly I feel we are on the same side in terms of being skeptical.
Cheers
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Old March 29th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
Unrelating to the 'truth'er argument, I just today realized how deadly afraid of heights I am, when in a building. I went up only nine stories in an abandoned apartment building, looked over the balcony, and felt dizzy. Imagine what the WTC jumpers must have felt 100 stories up...

I guess the steel bars of the ESB and the glass of the CN tower made me feel less scared of heights when I went up them, but when the ledge is empty, it's awful.
I can't even imagine the last few seconds that went through the minds of the jumpers. Jump or burn/suffocate to death? I think I would have fainted just thinking of such decisions.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #391
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One guy had the right idea of climbing down the perimeter steel, but an explosion blew him from the exterior after he had descended 10 floors or so.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzato View Post
Martin, I assure you there is no reversion here, and looking over my post, I could have worded it better. I simply meant to explain why most people think conspiracy theorists are 100% wrong. Not you personally, it was more of a general statement, and I didn't mean to 'defend' conspiracy theorists.
Neutrally is the only way I approach this subject, and you will see no insane ramblings.
I draw no conclusions from this video, because I hope it was a rogue video.

All I know(if Chapelo is correct) is that the WTC windows were 6 feet tall. The windows went down to the floor, or just about to the floor, so there would be no leaning out. The bottom of the window would never be at the same level as a person's waist.
This information should be disputed, and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.
I don't mean to trouble anyone, and such discussion can touch a nerve, definitely. It is not intended, and frankly I feel we are on the same side in terms of being skeptical.
Cheers
It is called perspective. Those people are over one thousand feet above the camera. There are pictures from 1993 where people broke out windows on the upper floors that look exactly the same. I suppose that was CGI as well? Give me a break here.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 06:20 PM   #393
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One guy had the right idea of climbing down the perimeter steel, but an explosion blew him from the exterior after he had descended 10 floors or so.
This is the video.

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Old March 29th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #394
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Yeah, when you're looking up 110 stories up, chances are perspective can change the angle of things.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzato View Post
Martin, I assure you there is no reversion here, and looking over my post, I could have worded it better. I simply meant to explain why most people think conspiracy theorists are 100% wrong. Not you personally, it was more of a general statement, and I didn't mean to 'defend' conspiracy theorists.
Neutrally is the only way I approach this subject, and you will see no insane ramblings.
I draw no conclusions from this video, because I hope it was a rogue video.

All I know(if Chapelo is correct) is that the WTC windows were 6 feet tall. The windows went down to the floor, or just about to the floor, so there would be no leaning out. The bottom of the window would never be at the same level as a person's waist.
This information should be disputed, and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.
I don't mean to trouble anyone, and such discussion can touch a nerve, definitely. It is not intended, and frankly I feel we are on the same side in terms of being skeptical.
Cheers
Rizzato, I'm not trying here to explain every single odd circumstance surrounding the WTC collapse. I simply don't have the knowledge for that. All I am saying is that, as far as I can see, there is no significant evidence that the collapse of the twin towers was down to anything other than the fact that they had been hit at high speed by two large airliners full of fuel.

I am not convinced that the video of the people at the window is that suspicious. The picture isn't that clear (obviously a long distance shot) and it might just be that what we think of as one person is actually two people crowded together. Also, I would think that people sticking their upper bodies outside of the building would be lying on the floor both to avoid the smoke and to prevent falling.

I don't totally dismiss the idea that this is some CGI or other trick photography. After all, 9/11 was one of the most notorious events in world history and there would be a huge market for unusual photographs, stories etc (just think about that Spanish woman who convinced everyone that she had been in the twin towers at the time of the collapse when she hadn't even been in the United States).

What I would be concerned about though is that everything slightly unusual is picked up on as proof of the 'conspiracy'.
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Old March 30th, 2013, 09:10 AM   #396
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I was shocked to hear President Kennedy was the pilot of the first plane and overwhelmed when it finally came out that Elvis flew the second plane.......I thought he worked at Mc Donalds in Idaho ?

Get a grip...Today you can make any image or say anything and who is to say what is real ? I just think of those lost an a terrible day in the world's history and the fact that we move on but never forget.
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Old March 30th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #397
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Guys , you seem to forget that proving that the towers did collapse as a result of the plane crashes , doesn't necesseraly mean that there was no conspiracy involved .

Don't forget that the US Government DID lie to it's citizens ( And the world ) about the war in Iraq .

Just saying ...
The most possible (saying this very strained) scenario for a conspiracy is that the government deliberately ignored terror warnings. There's no doubt the planes, hijacked by Al Qaeda, and the resulting fires led to the collapses. But even still, that theory is leaning on the unrealistic side because there's no actual proof of this. I know that some officials were condemned by the 911 commission for ignoring terror warnings, but I personally think that this was like the 'Titanic' scenario. They underestimated the threats, like the Captain underestimated the iceberg warnings.

I agree, the US government and the media does lie a lot. They have an agenda to fill, too. But that's not the brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible.
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Old March 30th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #398
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This is the video.

sure that's the exact same one, but at least very similar. Was it just me, or did those guys kind of seem like jerks? It almost seemed they were excited when he fell so that they could get footage of someone falling. Not to mention the horrible music in the background of the video.
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Old March 30th, 2013, 05:32 PM   #399
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The most possible (saying this very strained) scenario for a conspiracy is that the government deliberately ignored terror warnings. There's no doubt the planes, hijacked by Al Qaeda, and the resulting fires led to the collapses. But even still, that theory is leaning on the unrealistic side because there's no actual proof of this. I know that some officials were condemned by the 911 commission for ignoring terror warnings, but I personally think that this was like the 'Titanic' scenario. They underestimated the threats, like the Captain underestimated the iceberg warnings.

I agree, the US government and the media does lie a lot. They have an agenda to fill, too. But that's not the brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible.
I don't buy the wacky theories about the military air planes and other nonsense , but the conspiracy is very probable .

You described 9/11 as a " brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible " , how is that any different than your countrymen who are sent to fight pointless wars , and come back to their loved ones in coffins ? How is it different than the Millions of innocent people who died as " Collateral damage " during wars , even though we all know that they were targeted ? How is it any different than the CEOs of major food industry corporations , who know that millions end up getting very sick and dying because of what they put in the food we buy , yet still laugh all the way to the bank ?

The World is cruel my friend .

I have close friends from the West Point military academy , and i know the real deal about America's ( Hear , G.Bush ) " war on terror " ... It's a scam ! That's exactly how it was described .

Once that blind patriotism ( No different than communism really ) fades away , you are facing the truth , only then you realize that you are taking part in a freak show .

Now don't get me wrong , i' m from Casablanca , and in 2003 i saw destruction and disfigured bodies in the aftermath of a terrorist attack , so i' m in no way demonizing the USA and defending " Terrorist groups " , but when we are dealing with a " brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible " , we can't just move on ( like stated in a post earlier ) but we need to find whoever is responsible .

Another detail is Osama Ben Laden's assassination , i mean who are they kidding ? Don't you feel that there is something wrong with that ?!

He was the #1 criminal in the world , he needed to be judged , and left to die in a very slow and painful way . The World , and the families of the victims had the right to know what he had to say , why did he do that ( if he did ) ....

Instead they killed him in a swift fashion , and threw him in the ocean ?! WTF

All this leads to a feeling of nausea ..... Just like being robbed in daylight !
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Old March 30th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #400
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sure that's the exact same one, but at least very similar. Was it just me, or did those guys kind of seem like jerks? It almost seemed they were excited when he fell so that they could get footage of someone falling. Not to mention the horrible music in the background of the video.
That music was being played in the WTC plaza. There's a few videos where that's the only thing you can hear. Quite spooky.
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