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Old March 30th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #401
L.A.F.2.
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I was about to say, playing a melodic, carefree riff in the background of such a traumatic video is about as shallow and disrespectful as anything. The fact that that was playing in the WTC plaza is really creepy.
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Old March 31st, 2013, 05:11 PM   #402
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Another detail is Osama Ben Laden's assassination , i mean who are they kidding ? Don't you feel that there is something wrong with that ?!

He was the #1 criminal in the world , he needed to be judged , and left to die in a very slow and painful way . The World , and the families of the victims had the right to know what he had to say , why did he do that ( if he did ) ....

Instead they killed him in a swift fashion , and threw him in the ocean ?! WTF
You're surprised that America busted into his house, shot him in the head a few times, and unceremoniously dumped his body in the ocean? That sounds exactly like something we would do.
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Old March 31st, 2013, 06:47 PM   #403
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I don't buy the wacky theories about the military air planes and other nonsense , but the conspiracy is very probable .

You described 9/11 as a " brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible " , how is that any different than your countrymen who are sent to fight pointless wars , and come back to their loved ones in coffins ? How is it different than the Millions of innocent people who died as " Collateral damage " during wars , even though we all know that they were targeted ? How is it any different than the CEOs of major food industry corporations , who know that millions end up getting very sick and dying because of what they put in the food we buy , yet still laugh all the way to the bank ?

The World is cruel my friend .

I have close friends from the West Point military academy , and i know the real deal about America's ( Hear , G.Bush ) " war on terror " ... It's a scam ! That's exactly how it was described .

Once that blind patriotism ( No different than communism really ) fades away , you are facing the truth , only then you realize that you are taking part in a freak show .

Now don't get me wrong , i' m from Casablanca , and in 2003 i saw destruction and disfigured bodies in the aftermath of a terrorist attack , so i' m in no way demonizing the USA and defending " Terrorist groups " , but when we are dealing with a " brutal massacre of 3000 of their own innocent people in one of the scariest ways possible " , we can't just move on ( like stated in a post earlier ) but we need to find whoever is responsible .

Another detail is Osama Ben Laden's assassination , i mean who are they kidding ? Don't you feel that there is something wrong with that ?!

He was the #1 criminal in the world , he needed to be judged , and left to die in a very slow and painful way . The World , and the families of the victims had the right to know what he had to say , why did he do that ( if he did ) ....

Instead they killed him in a swift fashion , and threw him in the ocean ?! WTF

All this leads to a feeling of nausea ..... Just like being robbed in daylight !
They knew their possible ending if they joined the army. The people in the WTC didn't.
The only people who get sick from those foods are the people who buy them. And the sickness comes mainly from laziness, it's not the government's fault these people don't exercise.

911 truth is also a scam. The only people who don't realize the actual motives of the conspiracy theorist leaders (making money by selling BS dvds and accessories to the uneducated masses who believe them) are the truthers themselves. (and also the people who don't give a shit, but they don't matter)
Loose Change are millionaires thanks to the people who refuse to listen to anyone else. And did any of that money help the victims' families in any way? No.

I realize the USA is, in some aspects, corrupt. I'm not denying it. But that doesn't mean they will pull off a logically impossible and stupidly executed conspiracy.

Many other criminals have been killed in such a fashion. Shot on sight? Not uncommon. Would you rather the US paraded pictures of Osama's dead body in the streets, pissing off Al Qaeda? There are so many factors that could have led to him being shot on sight, but truthers always seem to view events in a binary way.
There are also videos of him saying everything, so what else should he say?
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Old March 31st, 2013, 10:42 PM   #404
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Guys , you seem to forget that proving that the towers did collapse as a result of the plane crashes , doesn't necesseraly mean that there was no conspiracy involved .
That is an obvious point Ace, who's forgetting it?

This is a thread about the WTC, so doesn't it make sense that any conspiracy theories are confined to how the building collapsed?

As I see it, Ace, if you want truth, you have to value it and the problem is that truth is often messy and doesn't lead to the conclusions we want.

Do you remember when the USS Challenger exploded back in 1986? That was back in the days before the internet so we weren't subjected to stories about explosives being smuggled on board or videos showing surface to air missiles aiming for the shuttle.

All the same, one sort of conspiracy theory did arise from the Challenger disaster. The rumour went round that the reason that the shuttle had been launched in very cold weather, against the advice of the engineers, was because there was political pressure to launch on time because President Reagan wanted to hold a live television broadcast with the 'Teacher in Space' Christa McAuliffe to coincide with his State of the Union address.

That sort of rumour, unlike the 9/11 conspiracy theories, was quite plausible and many people would have believed it without question - adding to the cynicism about politicians and government in general that is so common nowadays.

However, one of the members of the committee that investigated the Challenger disaster and who was instrumental in finding out the underlying cause was the Nobel prizewinning physicist, Richard Feynman.

Feynman decided to investigate the rumour and found out just where in its orbit Challenger was planned to be at the time of the State of the Union Address and also the arrangement of switching stations that would be required to allow the live broadcast to take place. His conclusion was that, the live broadcast would not have been possible, so the rumour was groundless.

It is that sort of painstaking investigation that is required to get close to real truth, not just believing things because they fit your political view of the world.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 01:32 AM   #405
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Also, implying that people hanging out of the windows weren't real, but were computer generated imagery is very disrepectful to the dead if those people were indeed real and actually did die, not that AceOfSpades is the one saying that. Just making a point. After nearly 12 years, we really have little more to go on and keep rehashing the same points over-and-over again.

I only pulled up this thread this time because I noticed that MartinS was the last poster and I wanted to see what he had to say.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 11:51 AM   #406
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I have close friends from the West Point military academy , and i know the real deal about America's ( Hear , G.Bush ) " war on terror " ... It's a scam ! That's exactly how it was described .
You are a non American studying in China and you have close friends from West point ?
I smell a conspiracy but of a very different kind.

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Old April 1st, 2013, 02:00 PM   #407
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I don't actually have a political view of the world , and i don't see 9/11 from a religious " eye " , i' m just a guy who's disgusted whenever he turns on the news channel , and who believes that what happened on 9/11 ( No matter who did it ) is the root of all this bloodshed .

You brought up the Challenger disaster which is very interesting , but the only think in common between those two is that they were human casualties .

9/11 was an attack , while what happened to the Challenger was an accident , it's really not the same think .

If we are gonna make theories about that , then we should probably make theories about the Titanic , or about the Japanese earthquake .

And still i can bet 100 Bucks that if you type the words " Illuminati , Titanic " on Google , you'll find tens of websites telling you how a Satan worshiping elite , sent out a shape shifting alien to the commander's room , and made him sign a pact with the Devil .....

Please , if we are gonna talk about this , let's leave the wacky theories that can't hold themselves , away from this kind of debate .

Plus , you mentioned how Mr Feynman underlined the cause of the disaster following an investigation ... How much did the US Government spend on 9/11 's investigation ? Aren't the families of the victims asking for a second , INDEPENDENT investigation ? Didn't we hear countless versions about what happened by many Officials ?

When you know what is at stake on the other hand , you are left wondering " What's going on ? " , do you see from where i' m coming ?!

And like i said in my reply to ThatOneGuy , the USA is no joke . They can't allow such attack on their soil . Even Nazi Germany and japan couldn't pull that off during WW2 .

And so what ? Those who did 9/11 couldn't identify a few other targets and unleash hell one more time ?!

The story just doesn't hold itself .
For your information Ace, the USA did 'allow' an attack on their soil during WWII - ever heard of Pearl Harbour?

Challenger was not an accident if you are a determined conspiracy theorist. The problem with it is that there is not an obvious beneficiary - although it would be easy to come up with something - Reagan trying to divert attention from some domestic or international event for example.

Before 9/11, one of the favourite targets for conspiracy theories was the death of Princess Diana - in that case, as some people could have been seen to benefit from it (the British Royal Family), there was a motive and, if there is a motive there is a crime - if you are a conspiracy theorist.

Trouble is, for all you believing 'the story just doesn't hold itself', the story does have a disappointing tendency to 'hold itself' when a little bit of investigation is done - as in the case of the building collapse.

I always look on this view of the world - of some all powerful and malevolent force directing things from some secret hideaway - as an Illuminati theory. I think that the Watergate debacle shows just how far-fetched that theory is.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 02:23 PM   #408
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That wasn't the case with Saddam Hussein , was it . And i' m pretty sure that if the allies have put their hands on Hitler , they would keep him alive to interrogate him , and most importantly , make him pay for what he did .

We had an official version saying that he resisted his arrest , while another said that he wasn't armed .

What does that tell you ?! It tells me that the white house had an " Ooopsie " moment !
It's what we get for electing a Democrat is all I can gather.
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Old April 1st, 2013, 03:02 PM   #409
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The people jumping out of the Towers was not CGI. I was on the last W train across the Manhattan bridge that morning, and I saw it with my own eyes. You want to know why someone would jump 110 stories to their own death? One of my friends did just that, and he had a note in his pocket to explain why. The reason? He wanted his mother to have a body she could bury.

You want to know why the towers collapsed? THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO! Could you image how much more carnage there would have been if the had toppled instead of pancaking upon themselves?
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Old April 1st, 2013, 10:52 PM   #410
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I meant on Mainland USA . Pearl harbor is in the Pacific .

I believe that there is a big difference between a conspiracy theorist and another . I don't question anything just for the sake of it .

You'll find people out there saying that the holocaust never happened , or that Hitler was a CIA agent , or _ just like a few month ago _ that something very bad would happen during the London Olympic games . I'm not THAT crazy !

The investigation on the collapse of the buildings isn't enough . Like i said before , proving that the buildings collapsed because of the plane crashes isn't enough to prove that the conspiracy isn't real .
Ace, proving a negative is almost impossible.

I have done several posts trying to explain what I believe is the most logical explanation for the twin towers collapse but I can't prove that there was no explosive used to bring the towers down. I just don't see any need for it.

The onus must always be on people such as yourselves to prove that there was a conspiracy. Otherwise, the most rational conclusion is that there wasn't one.

However, I don't totally discount your point of view - just that I think you have got your thought processes tied up in the need for a conspiracy theory to account for 9/11 and that leads to a classic 'goodies' and 'baddies' argument. The truth is far more complicated than that and goes back a lot further than 9/11.

I am sure that you could write a very long book on the roots of 9/11 that would probably take in much of human history but I guess most of it comes down to the upset in the Middle East regarding US support for the state of Israel and the fate of the Palestinian people who were displaced when this state was created (and who were duped by my own country during the First World War).

Add to that the support that the US has given to quite unpleasant regimes in the Middle East that has allowed privileged individuals to accumulate huge amounts of wealth whilst allowing their people to live in poverty.

Then there is the shear materialism of the West that sweeps aside traditional lifestyles. (I remember reading that some nomadic peoples in Northern Africa one year decided to put off their centuries old pilgrimage across the desert because they didn't want to miss the last episode of Dallas. That sounds comic but it can lead to a huge feeling of resentment).

There are also other things such as the psychology of young men (why is it almost always young males who become suicide bombers?) Young men are both egotistical but also have a high propensity to suicidal thoughts.

Suicide is seen as the ultimate statement of failure so there is always the tendency to glorify it in some way. I have heard that people committing suicide in California have driven over several bridges offering a perfect opportunity for it only to throw themselves off the Golden Gate bridge.

I guess that the combination of hatred, despair and quest for glory would lead to some young men killing themselves in a desperate attack on the symbols of American power - the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. (I have always wondered about that last point - the Pentagon is a very large, flat building that would only ever be partially damaged in an aircraft crash - a far more prestigious and vulnerable target would be the Capitol Building or the White House).

I am not trying to justify the September 11th attacks - what I am trying to do is to say that, just because I don't believe in a US government conspiracy on 9/11, I don't buy into the argument that we in the West were totally blameless for it.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 12:55 AM   #411
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To the one who said it's disrespectful to the victims to bring up the window heights:
Is it? Is it disrespectful to victims to observe something that can't be possible, and then failing to just forget about it? If everyone thought this way, no one would question anything, I guess.

Of course looking from below will make the window appear shorter. However, we are expected to believe the same perspective which makes the window's height appear shorter..will then also make the person inside that window appear..taller? And cause their legs to be hidden by a 3 foot wall? As long as this can be proven, I'm ready to jump on board with you guys.

The windows in question are below the man hanging out on the left side of tower. One person in each window, appearing out of smoke to 'lean out' of a 6 foot window that extends form their head to their waist.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 02:05 AM   #412
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...As in , they were designed that way ?

It's an interesting input , Bogframe . Could you please tell us more about it ?
The towers were built with external skeletons and an open floorplan. The weight of six or more floors collapsing would have and did cause a chain reaction causing the rest of the floors to collapse downward instead of the building toppling lengthwise. Anyone watching the towers collapse on TV, or, as I did live from Union Square, knows that that is exactly what happened.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 11:06 PM   #413
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Nice argument . Attaboy !!!
You aren't even presenting a rational argument. You aren't an expert on US foreign policy because you "know" some people who "went to West Point" and you have a coffee mug or some other garbage.

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To the one who said it's disrespectful to the victims to bring up the window heights:
Is it? Is it disrespectful to victims to observe something that can't be possible, and then failing to just forget about it? If everyone thought this way, no one would question anything, I guess.

Of course looking from below will make the window appear shorter. However, we are expected to believe the same perspective which makes the window's height appear shorter..will then also make the person inside that window appear..taller? And cause their legs to be hidden by a 3 foot wall? As long as this can be proven, I'm ready to jump on board with you guys.

The windows in question are below the man hanging out on the left side of tower. One person in each window, appearing out of smoke to 'lean out' of a 6 foot window that extends form their head to their waist.




Look at these CGI schmucks! You can't even see their legs!

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Old April 4th, 2013, 01:16 AM   #414
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There have been photos of windows which were down to the floor level, not waist. It seemed logical that each floor would be identical but you never know.
Guess the only way to know for sure is to find blueprints or something.
It still seems the video in question has windows far too small....

but you know what, I have nothing more to say, and appreciate the responses. The video is there to see, and that's it. Everyone sees things a little differently. Stay up, homies.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #415
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Alright , i only came here because i thought that people would be more open minded and willing to discuss this with solid arguments .

Turns out it's mostly focused on insignificant details and personal attacks .

Cheers ,
Well, the way I see it Ace is that you can always spin a conspiracy theory to fit any known facts but, where there is a simpler, more straightforward explanation, it makes sense to back that one unless there is an obvious reason for not doing so.

For example, if you go to bed tonight and the roads outside are dry and you wake tomorrow morning to find them covered in snow, it is a reasonable assumption that it snowed during the night.

Of course, that is not the only explanation. It may be that someone is making a film with a winter scene and the snow has been artificially generated. That argument would be backed up if you saw a film crew at work and the snow only covered your local area or if someone had put a leaflet through your door explaining what was happening. In the absence of that, it makes sense to go for the former explanation.

That is the problem with the 9/11 conspiracy theories. They may account for the events observed but there is precious little evidence to explain why the simpler explanation isn't the correct one.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 02:38 AM   #416
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There have been photos of windows which were down to the floor level, not waist. It seemed logical that each floor would be identical but you never know.
Guess the only way to know for sure is to find blueprints or something.
It still seems the video in question has windows far too small....

but you know what, I have nothing more to say, and appreciate the responses. The video is there to see, and that's it. Everyone sees things a little differently. Stay up, homies.
Yeah, we all see things a little differently. By that I mean some of us aren't insane and don't think that the videos from 9/11 were CGI. Good freaking lord.

Quote:

Alright , i only came here because i thought that people would be more open minded and willing to discuss this with solid arguments .

Turns out it's mostly focused on insignificant details and personal attacks .

Cheers ,
Tell me more about how you had something meaningful to discuss? I thought it was the same old tired conspiracy garbage.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 07:11 PM   #417
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I never said such thinks ! That was a cheap shot there , QuantumX !
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Also, implying that people hanging out of the windows weren't real, but were computer generated imagery is very disrepectful to the dead if those people were indeed real and actually did die, not that AceOfSpades is the one saying that. Just making a point.
Jesus Christ! Please read everything I said!
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Old April 5th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #418
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Of course that there is no evidence , but there are inconsistencies .

I already said how there were many versions of how the President of the Unites States first knew about the attacks , and also about Bin Laden's assassination .

And there IS EVIDENCE of the American Government lying about the war on Iraq , so we are sure of a few thinks ( This of course doesn't deny the existence of terrorist scumbags ) :

1 - The American Government is wicked and ready to lie in order to justify their war in the name of greed ( Based on the Iraq chapter ) .

2 - Inconsistencies in the story .

3 - The convenience of the pretext .

So conspiracy theories ( the sane ones , not the ones claiming that they saw UFO's a few days before the attacks ) are totally justified .
Ace,

A few weeks ago, I came across a website that you would have loved. It was some academic giving a lecture at M.I.T. in which he demonstrated that there had clearly been a conspiracy on 9/11 and illustrated how the site had been 'sterilised' to prevent investigators getting any evidence and how little money had been spent on the investigation.

Whilst it was quite easy to pick holes in many of the arguments he was making, the fact that here was a soft-spoken academic and not the usual conspiracy theorist hot-head was very impressive. Unless you think about it.

What is amazing about a lot of the conspiracy theorists, as with this man, was that he was speaking in the USA to a US audience and a video had been made of his lecture. He was telling his audience - and all of us that get to see the video - that the government of the USA was capable of carrying out mass murder of its citizens.

The man must have been incredibly brave and so must his audience many of whom feature on the video or maybe they were just stupid and didn't realise that a government capable of murdering 3,000 of its citizens would be capable of adding a few more.

Of course, they were neither. I doubt that the lecturer or his audience believed in the conspiracy any more than I do. It is just that associating yourself with such a way of thinking is a right on thing to do.

That is the thing about the USA. US citizens can accuse their government of being a mass murderer and call it wicked and not fear a knock on the door at four in the morning.

The US is a mature democracy with a free press (that can bring down the President) and has freedom of speech and religion.

The next time you decide to call the government of the US 'wicked' maybe just think what would happen if you decided to come on this thread and call the government of Morocco wicked.
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Old April 6th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #419
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Although i' m struggling with a massive hangover , i 'll try to answer , and make my points clear .

The think that you can't understand Martin , is that the only reason i'm interested in 9/11 is because the USA is involved . Let me explain .

I got your point about the Morocco government , but even though i called it wicked , a scam , filth .... on many occasions ( during the Arab spring ) Morocco's influence in the World is insignificant .

It can afford to be a dictatorship with a bunch of spineless idiots kissing the king's hand and with a GDP of just 100 B USD , but it only affects it's citizens , while the USA ( Or any other world power ) can't afford to be " wicked " .... Unless you wanna end up with another WW , which is exactly where we are heading .

The other thing is that i never said that the US government actually did murder 3000 of it's citizens , i just feel that somehow they are involved . Be it with their passivity , knowledge of the attack , or with their meddling in other countries affairs . And this seems very plausible to me .

9/11 is just too big to be planned and executed by bearded clowns in a cave , unless they are given important and precise information as well as a " green light " .
Ace, Let's draw this one to a close. Neither of us are US citizens and this incident didn't happen in our countries. We often come close to agreeing on things and then something is said that widens the gulf.

My position is, and always has been that I see no evidence for 9/11 having been a US government conspiracy or carried out with their agreement. I can't prove that but, given the lack of plausible evidence, I don't think that I need to devote my life to it.

That last sentence of yours seems to sum up why a lot of people believe in the conspiracy. Given what we now know about the 9/11 conspirators and Bin Laden himself, it is quite clear that they weren't 'bearded clowns living in caves' but were people with education and access to money. Even so, there is a comparison here with the Kennedy assassination.

For people who remember the USA in the early 60s, JFK represented the era. He was a handsome, youthful man with an attractive wife and aristocratic family. He was the face of America when it was at its most powerful and when practically everybody wanted to be an American. So, the idea that his life could be taken away by some lonely misfit sitting in an old warehouse building munching chicken legs was unbelievable. That is why the conspiracy theories lasted for such a long time.

The Kennedy assassination, like 9/11, shattered the myth of our invulnerability.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 01:15 AM   #420
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Ace, Let's draw this one to a close. Neither of us are US citizens and this incident didn't happen in our countries. We often come close to agreeing on things and then something is said that widens the gulf.

My position is, and always has been that I see no evidence for 9/11 having been a US government conspiracy or carried out with their agreement. I can't prove that but, given the lack of plausible evidence, I don't think that I need to devote my life to it.

That last sentence of yours seems to sum up why a lot of people believe in the conspiracy. Given what we now know about the 9/11 conspirators and Bin Laden himself, it is quite clear that they weren't 'bearded clowns living in caves' but were people with education and access to money. Even so, there is a comparison here with the Kennedy assassination.

For people who remember the USA in the early 60s, JFK represented the era. He was a handsome, youthful man with an attractive wife and aristocratic family. He was the face of America when it was at its most powerful and when practically everybody wanted to be an American. So, the idea that his life could be taken away by some lonely misfit sitting in an old warehouse building munching chicken legs was unbelievable. That is why the conspiracy theories lasted for such a long time.

The Kennedy assassination, like 9/11, shattered the myth of our invulnerability.
I am a US Citizen. On 9/11/2001, I got up early to vote in the primary election before going to work in Manhattan. As usual, I could see the towers from my train station when I got on the train. Two stops later, we could see smoke coming from one of the towers. When the train (a W running on the West End Line) got to 9th Avenue, we could clearly see both towers in flames, billowing smoke, and stationery from them falling from the sky. When we got onto the Manhattan Bridge (and I found out later that ours was the last train to do so, we sould see the flames and the smoke, and we could clearly see debris and people falling from them.
The train went express then to Union Square running on the N (Sea Beach) line. When I got to the top of the stairs, I looked down broadway just in time to see the first tower fall. The smell in the air haunts me to this day: a combination of concrete dust, burning plastic and barbecue.
A few days later I went down to the site. This is what I saw:







All you people in other countries can speculate all you want. I've heard every bullcrap theory from Bush planned it so we could go to war in Iraq to Silverstein planned it so he could demo the buildings that were costing him too much. Here's what I know. I saw the mock-ups for these when I was a little kid at the World's Fair. I watched them go up. My father had his fatal heart attack in the PATH station under them in 1971 before they opened. I went through them in 1993 15 minutes before the bomb went off, and I saw them burn and collapse in 2001 when two 757s fully loaded with people and fuel were hijacked by terrorist suicide bombers and were flown into those towers. You were not there, I was. You didn't have one of your friends write a note to his mother, put it in his pocket and jump to his death so his mother would have a body to bury. I did. You didn't have to smell burning human flesh for a week after, I did. You didn't have to walk past the armory on Lexington Avenue every day and see the posters asking if anyone knew loved ones were alive or dead, I did. Unless you were here, saw it, smelled it and were affected by it, your crackpot bullcrap theories are g-ddamned offensive to those of us who were and are.
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