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Old August 31st, 2016, 11:52 PM   #1
MILIUX
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Proposed | SYDNEY | Metro: City & Parramatta

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-n...31-gr5d6m.html



A new metro line between Sydney's Central Business District and Parramatta will be the next major public transport project initiated by the NSW government, but might come at the expense of parts of Parramatta's planned light rail network.

Senior sources have confirmed planning is underway for the metro line, intended to bring long-needed relief to Sydney's western rail corridor and service growth areas, such as the Bays Precinct around Rozelle and the former industrial lands at Camellia.

The project could also include a future expansion to a Badgerys Creek airport to the west, and is likely to also contemplate an eastward expansion to Maroubra and Long Bay.

But one option being considered is cutting back the scope of the proposed light rail line between Parramatta and Strathfield via Olympic Park, though it is understood no decision has yet been made on that idea.

continue by going to link above...
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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:24 AM   #2
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Wow that sounds very exciting!
Would love to see the exact proposed route.
Looks like it doesn't go through Central which would be a wise decision.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 12:56 AM   #3
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What a wonderful project. We are so lucky to have this Government and they do exactly as they say too so very confident this will proceed.

I think this will be the big election winner in 2019.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:03 AM   #4
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Whats being discussed in that article is pretty much what was raised in the thread on here named "SYDNEY: Vision: Fast Train - City to Badgerys Creek".

My thoughts are still the same, if this Metro goes through with an Olympic Park stop then the Light Rail will have to be cut back. I think it will still go to Camelia to Interchange with this Metro but not east of there. It would just run Westmead > Camelia > Carlingford and perhaps the second line Castle Hill > Camelia > Bankstown long term.

If this is an all stations Metro with the same rolling stock that the existing Metro will use then I would forget the extension from Parramatta to Badgerys Creek, too slow for that. In that scenario I like the Westmead to Maroubra option. If its really going to be servicing the Western Airport with the idea being to provide a fast service to the Sydney CBD then it would have to have only a few key stops and 160 KM/H rolling stock.

The Eastern Suburbs Metro extension suggests to me that this will be a more conventional metro like the current NW/ SW line. I would be very surprised if this line didn't still go through Central or runs through Waterloo. For the East Sydney section it will be interesting to see what they do but I expect West of the Sydney CBD that we will see a hybrid of the 2008 Metro plans and the recent Metro ideas from the private sector to allow for value capture. So taking the Bays Precinct from the old CBD Metro plans and combining that with the old West Metro line with a few variations. Stabling could be in Rosehill/ Camelia.

If the all stops Metro has well placed CBD stations, with the true fast Main Western line DD trains terminating at Central I expect that it only has to match the speed of the existing services to guarantee patronage. The Metro being aimed at passengers from Parramatta and East of there and the express DD aimed at passengers West of Parramatta.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:17 AM   #5
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I would be excited to see this get going!

Obviously this is just lines on a map at this stage, but I'm guessing it'll be something like:
- new platforms at Parramatta, probably underground.
- new tunnel and stations to Strathfield via Olympic Park
- converting some of the Inner West line to metro??
- new tunnel and stations to White Bay, the city and the eastern suburbs
- probably via Central

I'd also guess the line would have similar specs and rolling stock to the NW Metro.

I don't think this is going to get anyone get from the city to Parramatta any faster. But it might free up slots in the City Circle for more frequent express and limited stop services.

No clue what will happen to Macdonaldtown, Newtown, etc.

I don't think this will replace Malcolm's fast train to a new airport - two totally different objectives.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:19 AM   #6
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Yet another example of the phenomena that if all you've got is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail.

Given recent successes, the rail planners think every problem can be solved with another metro. They don't have the stomach to contemplate fast rail.

Sydney is far too big physically to have trains that average 70Km/hr or less.

That's all I have to say for now.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 04:28 AM   #7
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As most posters suspected, they are going with a high patronage driven option, as opposed to a specialized high speed option.

The task is the make each metro line as highly patronized as possible, linking as many job/residential/ service centres as possible.

We want as many people as possible, in as much of the city as possible, using urban rail.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 04:41 AM   #8
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What does this have to do with high speed rail? This line is for local services in the inner west, not high speed services west of Parramatta.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtD View Post
What does this have to do with high speed rail? This line is for local services in the inner west, not high speed services west of Parramatta.
Nothing, this has nothing to do with fast rail.

Apart from the fact that it is an evolution of the 'Very Fast Rail' proposed by Turnbull pre election. (Which I noted was only 50% fast rail anyway, and 50% metro.)

I approve if the designers have decided to ditch the fast rail part and focus on the metro 50% - only because I don't want fast rail if it is done wrong, as we will never get a second chance - one wrong turn will kill it in Sydney forever.

I also note that they are still suggesting that this could be extended to BC Airport which I think is foolish. Instead I would extend the existing heavy rail from the South West, and if desired have it interchange with the Metro (possibly both Metros) at St Marys.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 09:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtD View Post
What does this have to do with high speed rail? This line is for local services in the inner west, not high speed services west of Parramatta.
How does this line help people in Western Sydney if its slow?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:08 AM   #11
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It doesn't! Think of it as a second inner west line. Only good for Westies who happen to work at Olympic Park, White Bay, etc.

Also not looking forward to eastern suburbs NIMBYs going on about "ruining THEIR beach with undesirables from the west."
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:41 AM   #12
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I don't think the government would really care about the NIMBYs in Eastern suburbs. They already have plenty of experience taming Surry Hills, Randwick and the Inner West from Light rail and Westconnex respectively.

Too many rail projects got truncated in Eastern Suburbs because od NIMBYs. There suppose to be Wollahra station on Eastern Suburbs line.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:51 AM   #13
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It doesn't!
Precisely. So when we do finally figure out we need a FASTER line to the west, we'll have to spend billions on a new pair of tunnels.

Classic.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoomwhoosh View Post
Precisely. So when we do finally figure out we need a FASTER line to the west, we'll have to spend billions on a new pair of tunnels.

Classic.
This line isn't about increasing speed (which I agree should be number 1 priority).

It is about however increasing coverage and capacity.

Although I think this is priority number 2, it is still important and I am not upset to see it being addressed. I would gather if any of us lived in these areas (I don't) or in any of the areas with severe overcrowding on the existing line then this might well be a vote winning announcement, should this plan make it to that stage.

Meanwhile on a politics note - the government may be playing a sneaky game here. By leaking info to Soulwick who can be very anti-government they may have locked him into a positive stance early and eliminated a potential critic, I wonder if that is intentional.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyC View Post
This line isn't about increasing speed (which I agree should be number 1 priority).

It is about however increasing coverage and capacity.

Although I think this is priority number 2, it is still important and I am not upset to see it being addressed. I would gather if any of us lived in these areas (I don't) or in any of the areas with severe overcrowding on the existing line then this might well be a vote winning announcement, should this plan make it to that stage.

Meanwhile on a politics note - the government may be playing a sneaky game here. By leaking info to Soulwick who can be very anti-government they may have locked him into a positive stance early and eliminated a potential critic, I wonder if that is intentional.
Its a very simple proposition. You don't get a second chance at this. Once you spend $10B+ on a new metro you can't go back and build a second pair of tunnels. The fast connection to the west of Sydney will never happen.

If you instead build the fast line with limited stops from Parramatta to the CBD, then you can go back and solve the residual transport issues (inner west etc) much more cheaply - you're not building horrendously expensive underground stations for one thing, just much cheaper light rail stations.

Its interesting that I'm off to Tokyo and their fastest airport train (the Skyliner) takes 40 minutes to cover the 70Km from Narita. That's pretty pathetic in the land of the bullet train. Our Badgeries Creek airport is 50Km from the city and we should be able to do that in 25 minutes. Not the 45+ minutes that TfNSW seems to think is ok.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:42 PM   #16
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Such pessimism! Just because it's not the line you want, doesn't mean it's not going to be a success.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:47 PM   #17
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Its a very simple proposition. You don't get a second chance at this. Once you spend $10B+ on a new metro you can't go back and build a second pair of tunnels. The fast connection to the west of Sydney will never happen.

If you instead build the fast line with limited stops from Parramatta to the CBD, then you can go back and solve the residual transport issues (inner west etc) much more cheaply - you're not building horrendously expensive underground stations for one thing, just much cheaper light rail stations.

Its interesting that I'm off to Tokyo and their fastest airport train (the Skyliner) takes 40 minutes to cover the 70Km from Narita. That's pretty pathetic in the land of the bullet train. Our Badgeries Creek airport is 50Km from the city and we should be able to do that in 25 minutes. Not the 45+ minutes that TfNSW seems to think is ok.
Its not that simple.

We both know that in the current climate any government is going to be tempted to add new stations to a 'high-speed' line to get some value capture. This leads to the line not being a real high speed option, and in some of the plans pretending to be high speed rail I doubt they would even be quicker then what is currently there.

Given that would you prefer a proper metro or a half-metro half-HSR? Because I am telling you once we build a line and call it HSR we are never ever building another one, no matter how slow and unsuited it is.

I would rather not do it wrong, as it blows our chance of ever doing it right. If the political imperative is to build a line with more capacity and one with a new catchment area, then lets do that - rather then build a 'HSR' line and shoehorn these objectives in to that project and end up with a camel of a project.

I want HSR as much as you, or perhaps not - but as much as almost anyone else - I just don't want a poor mans HSR which is really HSR in name only. In the meantime lets build some metros and keep building the HSR case - eventually we will build it, and when we do we can do it right.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:55 PM   #18
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Nine news here is reporting that there's currently 2 different routes being considered, one along Parramatta Road and one along Victoria Road to Ryde then Parramatta. Both seem a little different to what SMH is reporting.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/201.../?ocid=9newstw

Ahh, the journalism...
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Old September 1st, 2016, 04:11 PM   #19
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The fast rail from Badgerys Creek to CBD will be a white elephant. It won't be economical to run because it will be expensive and low patronage. Potentially lower frequency as well. Western Sydney people will just catch a bus there or drop off their car.

Parramatta to CBD metro will create a new transit catchment north of Parramatta Road. That whole stretch of Parramatta Road can then be densified along with Rozelle and White Bay.

It is not politically or an economically feasible to build a line with low patronage when you can build other routes that will serve far greater passengers.

There are so many examples around the world where passengers opt to use slower service to the airport even if a high speed service is available. Incheon, Shanghai, Narita, London Heathrow just to name a few. Shanghai spent billions on that maglev line but it's hardly used by locals because they prefer to use an all stops metro line. Same for Incheon. These are major airports which will be far bigger than Badgery Creek will ever be and yet it can't sustain a high speed service to CBD.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 05:33 PM   #20
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Where is a North-South line that connects all these east-west lines outside of the CBD.

This West Metro proposal out to Parramatta is essentially a duplication of the Western Line. It should really run from the CBD to Bays Precinct to Ryde (along Victoria Rd) to Rydalmere/Camelia then to Parramatta rather than using the southern foreshore of Parramatta River. The booming Ryde area seriously needs transport infrastructure, plus the Parramatta Rd corridor already has tens of billions of funding from the government including the $16.8 billion WESTCONNEX. People have forgotten the size of Sydney, a line out to Maroubra, again sounds familiar with the $2.2 Billion SE Light Rail. Funding has been concentrated to only small parts of the metropolitan area with places like Northern Beaches, Outer West Line (connecting Badgerys Creek Airport with Penrith, Blacktown, Liverpool and Campbelltown), and a critical North South middle ring line forgotten.

I still do not see this West Metro project prioritised over a North-South line from Miranda/Hurstville to Macquarie/Epping. A North-South line will already free up space on the Western Line as people will now interchange outside of the CBD and vice versa. This will truly reduce road congestion throughout most parts of Sydney, and faster journey times for cross-city workers.

Although if this goes ahead, I'd link it up from Bays Precinct then to the Ryde area and along the Northern foreshore of Parra River to Parramatta via Rydalmere/Camelia
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