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Old November 12th, 2019, 05:24 AM   #19401
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Old November 12th, 2019, 07:45 AM   #19402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardjeni View Post

I do not know whether to laugh or cry.

See the above report on the 'silver line' semi high speed railway.

There are sceptics and optimists. One of the sceptics is D Dhanuraj of Centre for Public Poilicy Research (CPPR). He echose exactly what I wrote on this project. He says with a fraction of this cost the present railway lines can be straightened and the speed of the trains increased. The number of trains can be increased with the introduction of modern signalling system in the existing lines. It appears as a copy paste of my post on this subject.

The optimists and protagonists are hilarious. They say that the population burden on Kochi will be reduced as people will choose to live in less expensive cities nearby like Thrissur and Kottayam and commute daily to Kochi for work in this 'silver line'. Are they in their senses?

The same report says that as per calculation as on today the fare on this proposed semi high speed railway would be Rs.2.75 per km which can go up many fold once this project is completed. Let us take Rs.2.75 only. So to commute from Thrissur to Kochi it will be Rs.250.00 one way. Up and down it would be Rs.500.00 per day. Add Rs.20 bus fare from your residence to the station at Thrissur to and fro and another Rs.20 from Kochi station to your office and back. So another Rs.40 as bus fare. Total Rs.540 per day. That is if only you are a 'poor person' who takes the trouble of a bus ride. If you engage an auto it would be much more. So in a day you are 'poor enough' to spend nearly Rs.600 to go to your office as on today! You cannot expect a 'season ticket' in this elite mode of transport.

What these guys are talking? It is beyond my comprehension.
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Old November 12th, 2019, 04:18 PM   #19403
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What Mr. Dhanuraj pointed out, are exactly the thoughts of an average malayali. Even if you ask daily rail commuters, 99 out of 100 will have the same opinion.
The report shows, they fixed deadline as 2024, and mind it, this is Kerala
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Old November 13th, 2019, 07:23 AM   #19404
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Kozhikode to Bangalore Intercity Express to be Launched soon... or Just another Gimmick?

https://www.mathrubhumi.com/kozhikod...soon-1.4275055
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Old November 14th, 2019, 08:16 PM   #19405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuppatakkath View Post
I do not know whether to laugh or cry.



The same report says that as per calculation as on today the fare on this proposed semi high speed railway would be Rs.2.75 per km which can go up many fold once this project is completed. Let us take Rs.2.75 only. So to commute from Thrissur to Kochi it will be Rs.250.00 one way. Up and down it would be Rs.500.00 per day. Add Rs.20 bus fare from your residence to the station at Thrissur to and fro and another Rs.20 from Kochi station to your office and back. So another Rs.40 as bus fare. Total Rs.540 per day. That is if only you are a 'poor person' who takes the trouble of a bus ride. If you engage an auto it would be much more. So in a day you are 'poor enough' to spend nearly Rs.600 to go to your office as on today! You cannot expect a 'season ticket' in this elite mode of transport.

What these guys are talking? It is beyond my comprehension.

There is nothing difficult to comprehend.
Compare this cost with the cost of driving a car.
The total cost of ownership of a car works is anywhere between Rs 8-Rs 15 per km based on the make and model of the car, considering financing, depreciation, maintenance, fuel, registration, tolls etc.
Even if you just consider fuel and tolls alone for an argument's sake, it would work out to at least Rs 4-Rs 6 per km. Compare this to the proposed 2.75 Rs per km on Semi HSR. If you consider this is an elite project, then all car owning households who afford more should also be considered as elites in your definition, which means roughly 25-30% of all households in Kerala.

There are so many myths being spread around about what can be done with automatic signalling and blah blah that can improve the present system.

1. Automatic Signalling can dramatically increase capacity in sections where all/most trains run at the same speed, same stop pattern etc. In such cases, automatic signalling can significantly reduce headway between trains and increase capacity. It works very well in the Chennai and Mumbai sub-urban rail network and there are dedicated tracks. In such stretche, headways between trains can be consistenly brought down to as low as 2-3 minutes during peak hour and 5-10 minutes during off peak hours. However, in stretches like Delhi-Mathura, Chennai-Jolarppettai etc which also have automated signalling and dedicated 3rd and 4th line is some stretches, the same problem of multiple types of trains using the same track persists and so the headway is reduced to just about 10-15 minutes during the peak hour, which is not achieved consistenly throughout the day due to capacity constraints.

Whereas in our state, we have passenger trains/MEMUs/goods trains/express trains/weeklies/biweeklies/superfasts/Rajdhanis and Goods trains all sharing the same track. All these trains have different stoppage patterns and different acceleration/decceleration capabilities (esp: MEMU vs Goods trains vs a conventional loco hauled express train). In such a scenario, automated block signalling will not bring any dramatic improvement in capacity/speed. If automated signalling be of any use, we should have a dedicated 3rd and 4th to line to reduce the mix of train types using the same track. The Silver Line project is the proposed 3rd and 4th line.

2. Our lines are super saturated and doubling of Kottayam and Alappuzha (which I read has been shelved) has to be completed at the earliest. But even after doubling, we woul still need a dedicated third/fourth rail to better operate the diverse mix of trains in our network. Acquiring land along the exisiting Right of Way from TVC to SRR is very difficult. This route was initially in MG gauge which was later converted to BG hence there are many curves which limit the MPS to just 110kmph (in some stretches between TVC-QLN and QLN-KYJ) and 70-80 kmph in remaining stretches.
We need a 3rd and 4th rail, but when we build one, why should we go for such very low speed capabilities? Moreover, we are not shooting for a 300kmph type HSR but a 160-200 kmph semi HSR.
The Silver line project is the proposed 3rd/4th line and not some fancy project.

3. The total cost of NH 4 laning in Kerala is Rs 44,000 crore. The cost of this project is Rs 66,000 crore. This is not some super expensive project compared to the ones that are being undertaken now. The total LA required for this project is around 1200 hectares compared to 2600 hectares required for NH widening, to give a comparison.

4. We all can be skeptical about when the project will be implemented and rightly so considering the nature of infra projects in Kerala. But that does not take away the importance of this project how this is the only 'less unviable' options we have for a sustainable transportation for the future. Our personal vehicle numbers are booming and there is very little room to add new massive road projects in our state, towns and cities. 12 lives are lost and 120 injured everyday in Kerala on an average.
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Old November 14th, 2019, 09:57 PM   #19406
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Very well said, Navjot. And quite detailed too. I endorse what you say .

One more thing. Automatic signalling needs flat terrain. Signals are at uniform distance of say, two Km. Cannot be located on gradients, so implementation is more or less impossible.

Semi HSR from TVC to SRR to KGQ is what we need. Two Terminal stations and just Eight stations in between is absolutely alright.
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Old November 14th, 2019, 09:57 PM   #19407
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Old November 15th, 2019, 05:54 AM   #19408
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1. In the first place what I calculated was the fare one has to spare for commuting from Thrissur to Kochi on a daily basis as claimed by the optimists that daily working commuters will use this line. Rs.600 per day in the Silver line. Again this calculation is not mine, but found in the report. I was not speaking of one off travel, which every one does occasionally in a car. Do you think an IT professional working in Kochi and staying in Thrissur can afford Rs.18000 per month for his work attendance transport alone? Where as an IT professional earns Rs.25000 a month initially and Rs.50000 to Rs.80000 on an average. What to speak of others who earn less? Are you living in some Lala land?

2. Where did you get the idea that the Silver line is going to be the third and fourth line of the existing line. If it was there is no scope for my writing. I have been advocating it through out. It is clearly stated it is going to be a separate line away from the present line. Hence all the trouble.

3. Who said modern signalling cannot increase the frequency of the the train? The proof of the pudding is in eating it. In Mumbai in each track a train is running within a gap of two minutes.

4. If your concern is the speed, why don't we build two more tracks in the existing railway dedicated solely for speed trains. This can be done with minimum or no land acquisition. Why this obsession with a separate railway?

5. How can you demolish 40000 houses and rehabilitate more than 1.5 lac people? And for What? To serve six cities forcing all the villages of Kerala suffer? Let us not be hypocrites. Suppose it were your house or your parents house what will be your reaction? I am not dumb enough to believe you would not protest. You are living in a city which protests evacuation of 360 illegally built flats? And you say villagers should not be concerned about their legally built houses? Even if compensation is paid. In Marad also compensation is being paid. Why this hypocrisy?

6. The projection says you need 50000 passengers a day in each direction to make it viable. When there is not that much long distance passengers between Kasargode and Thiruvananhapuram for subsidised railway line where would you find 50000 passengers a day in each direction for this elite mode of transportation. Are you living on firm earth?

If anybody is interested to reply, please reply specifically by numbering my points. Othetwise live in your utopia.
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Old November 15th, 2019, 09:51 AM   #19409
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Ref. Gautam T's post, where in he states signals will not be visible due to the gradient of the rail in Kerala and hence impossible. I do not know why he is shooting in the dark. I am not a civil Engineer hence I may not know. Is Gautam one? If he is not, did he consult one who knows. What is the maximum gradient that a train can negotiate? Every common sense tells us that a train cannot negotiate a gradient in which a signal becomes invisible. Even in ghat section, where the gradient is maximum, signals are visible.

It is a different thing if you say signals may become invisible due to curve of the track. It is possible. Especially if the vision of the loco pilot is obstructed by trees. This possibility is also remote, because a train cannot negotiate a sharp curve like the road traffic. If a train need to take a 90 degree curve, it needs to cover at least one km.

Of course the curves of the present track need to be straightened, if you want to add two more speed tracks to the present line. Curves reduce speed. But it will cost a miniscule fraction of money needed for a separate rail project.

His contention that speed rail needs a signal at every km., means nothing. There are already signals almost in every km., of the present conventional track. Due to many factors like close stations and intermittent level crossings.

It is better if we check the facts, before shooting in the dark.
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Old November 15th, 2019, 07:04 PM   #19410
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Where have I said that Signals become invisible on gradients? Nowhere.

Where have I said that Signals are required after every one kilometre? Nowhere.

I stand by every word I have written and I don't have to reply to some nonsensical remarks.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 07:04 AM   #19411
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Soon the whole Indian railway will be privatised and these private players will be plying only luxury trains in the same archaic network we have now. All the aam aadmi trains will be replaced because they were subsidised. We will have A/c, TV, Wifi, "Train hostess" and what not. All trains will charge 3 rupees/km. But those trains will still run at 30-40 km/hr just like now because that is how this network is built and is already running saturated. But still people will have to use those trains because we don't have any other option. That will be the time when this Kerala govt promoted semi HSR will make total sense. It will be just like how Kerala govt promoted Cochin airport is way better than central govt airports.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 07:06 AM   #19412
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I am not a mind reader. I can go only by the words written by you. How can I know what was in your mind when you wrote this:-

"Automatic signalling needs flat terrain. Signals are at a uniform distance of say 2 kms. Cannot be located on gradients, so implementation is difficult"

These are your exact words. You were explaining why high speed railway cannot be built along the conventional line. You are saying signals cannot be located on gradients. If it was not visibility, tell us what is the reason. If it is something else I do not understand, make it clear in plain words. I am an open minded person. I shall correct my response. Same goes for the distance between two signals.

Take my word. Add two or three sentence more to make your idea clear. People may mock you as an essay writer. It is OK. I am living with it.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 07:26 AM   #19413
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Aslesh, when are they going to privatise and run only A/C trains in our 40 km.track. Kothipikkalley. My mouth is already salivating.

It is like saying all of Indians are going to have the average income of US citizens with in fifteen years.

Brother, do you know 60% of Indians are living below poverty line? And the definition of BPL is earning less than Rs.70 a day. A princely sum that is not sufficient to buy a masala dosa for you and me.

And we are dreaming of ending subsidised travel and bringing in bullet trains. Fully 'vaathaanukool'.

And do you not know already trains are running at a speed if 130 kms. per hour on conventional lines? What is the speed of the so called 'semi high speed rail'? 120 kms per hour? I do not even know what is meant by semi high speed. There is no such word in English dictionary.

Yes, time is not static. Nobody can stop the march of time. Bullet trains may come. Who knows, rails and roads may become redundant once flying car comes. But you cannot quantum jump time ignoring the present realities. This is the simple truth.

You can imagine only 10% of Indians who does not want a subsidised sustenance for the next twenty five years. I am sure, even Aslesh may be receiving Rs.70 subsidy in his bank account for a cylinder of LPG he purchased.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 08:01 AM   #19414
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Still nobody answers my question.

1. How can we demolish 40,000 houses and rehabiltiate 1.5 lac people? And for what?

2. What is the cost of the proposed project?

3. How we are going to recover the cost?

4. What is the percentage of people going to be benefited by this line? What is the percentage of people who are going to suffer?

Without answering these questions we cannot proceed. it is useless.

A bullet train is planned between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. I know the terrain very well. It can be built without displacing large numbers of people. If the terrain of Kerala was same, my objection would have been minimal. Even if it bleeds the exchequer and our pocket by running in to huge loss.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 09:18 AM   #19415
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I am baffled by the attitude of some guys. This is an imaginary conversation. Do not come for a fight.

1.I say build your 'semi high speed' railway along with the present railway line. I did not say do not have speed trains.

2. Now the objections come from people like Aslesh that the present line is saturated.

3. I say implement modern signal systems so that frequency of trains can be increased.

4. Now the counter comes from another fellow that signals cannot be implemented due to the gradient of Kerala rail lines(What ever that means).

5. Then I say, build two more lines dedicated for speed trains aligning it with the present lines and stations. It would cost a fraction of what is needed for a separate line. Already space is there in some stretches for quadrupling the line. In some other stretches little land acquisition is necessary. And it is easier to acquire along the present line because there is already law preventing anything to be constructed with in fifty metres of the railway on both the sides.

6. The guys say nothing doing. We want a separate "semi high speed' so that we can show case it to the world. One station in Kannur modified has got no prestige. We want a separate station in Kannur, preferably like an airport. Who do you think we are? We are ready to pay Rs.2.75 or Rs.5.75 per km to commute to our office in Kochi from Thrissur, and do you expect us to alight on a measly platform from our luxurious trains which Aslesh described vividly?

7. I ask, Sir what about 40,000 houses that are going to be demolished and 1.5 lac people who are going to be displaced? Don't you have any heart?

8. Why are you bothered about those beggars who live on subsidies like leeches? Ask them to go to hell.

9. I ask, Sir what about if your luxurious rail Petri goes in to huge loss. Is it not subsidising you rich people by spending from the tax of all citizens including the poor.

10. What subsidy? Don't say subsidy. You are insulting us. Say infrastructire. It is our right. We rich are entitled to it.

11. What about the subsidy you receive on your LPG cylinder Sir. Is it infrastructure?

No answer. Silence.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #19416
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Two URLs ..

https://m.economictimes.com/industry...w/71707267.cms



https://m.economictimes.com/industry...alsharebuttons

Above is in general interest only.
They are recent articles.
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Old November 16th, 2019, 10:16 PM   #19417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuppatakkath View Post
1. In the first place what I calculated was the fare one has to spare for commuting from Thrissur to Kochi on a daily basis as claimed by the optimists that daily working commuters will use this line. Rs.600 per day in the Silver line. Again this calculation is not mine, but found in the report. I was not speaking of one off travel, which every one does occasionally in a car. Do you think an IT professional working in Kochi and staying in Thrissur can afford Rs.18000 per month for his work attendance transport alone? Where as an IT professional earns Rs.25000 a month initially and Rs.50000 to Rs.80000 on an average. What to speak of others who earn less? Are you living in some Lala land?

2. Where did you get the idea that the Silver line is going to be the third and fourth line of the existing line. If it was there is no scope for my writing. I have been advocating it through out. It is clearly stated it is going to be a separate line away from the present line. Hence all the trouble.

3. Who said modern signalling cannot increase the frequency of the the train? The proof of the pudding is in eating it. In Mumbai in each track a train is running within a gap of two minutes.

4. If your concern is the speed, why don't we build two more tracks in the existing railway dedicated solely for speed trains. This can be done with minimum or no land acquisition. Why this obsession with a separate railway?

5. How can you demolish 40000 houses and rehabilitate more than 1.5 lac people? And for What? To serve six cities forcing all the villages of Kerala suffer? Let us not be hypocrites. Suppose it were your house or your parents house what will be your reaction? I am not dumb enough to believe you would not protest. You are living in a city which protests evacuation of 360 illegally built flats? And you say villagers should not be concerned about their legally built houses? Even if compensation is paid. In Marad also compensation is being paid. Why this hypocrisy?

6. The projection says you need 50000 passengers a day in each direction to make it viable. When there is not that much long distance passengers between Kasargode and Thiruvananhapuram for subsidised railway line where would you find 50000 passengers a day in each direction for this elite mode of transportation. Are you living on firm earth?

If anybody is interested to reply, please reply specifically by numbering my points. Othetwise live in your utopia.



Regarding 2,3,4 I have already explained in my original post, explaining the cases of Chennai and Mumbai suburban rail, Delhi-Mathura, Chennai-Jolarpettai etc. I have explained the limits upto which capacity can be increased and the caveats. You have the answers if you bother to read my original post carefully. But you wouldn't as is evident from your follow up posts and your posts in other threads in general. You claim that capacity/speed can be increased, why don't you quantify that increase without just blindly assuming Automatic Signalling as some magic pill which would cure everything?
I don't think you have been following this project from its initial phase. After it was set up, KRDCL did study the possibility of laying a 3rd and 4th line along the present alignment. However, they opted for a greenfield alignment from TVC to SRR due to LA constraints and the presence of many curves between TVC and SRR. The marginal improvement in speed/capacity per money spent to lay a 3rd and 4th line along the present alignment is not worth the huge expenditure and cannot be scaled to meet future demand. Why should we spend so much money just to increase speed from 70-80 kmph to just about 100-130 kmph?


Regarding 5, LA is an issue for ANY new infra project in Kerala. People do not get compensated fairly and in time for the land they part with. This is a problem that needs to be addressed separately. My family has had to partake with land for an infra project and it took us a long time to get the compensation. So I am not a hypocrite and have been affected by this problem.
Does it mean that we should forever remain stuck in the present transportation infra? Doesn't these demolitions not apply for your proposed 3rd and 4th line that according to you "can be easily done at a fraction of the cost"?
What we can do because of our LA constraints is to puruse a project that requires the least LA possible and which has a high carrying capacity and sustainable for the future. This project needs acquisition of 1200 hectares of land, NH 4 widening requires 2600 hectares of land. A greenfield access controlled expressway needs 4000+ hectares of land.
To an extent KMRL was one example where there was sufficient political will to acquire land and provide fair and timely compensation to landowners. If the authorities show a similar will, the semi HSR project can also be done.

Regarding 6, I would wait till the DPR is out for the exact numbers.
From the data we have now (from NATPAC and GoK websites), there are an estimated 1.5 crore trips everyday in Kerala. An estimated 40% of all traffic in Kerala is on National Highways (and +40% on State Highways and MDRs) - These account only for 10% of the entire road network. That's about 1 crore trips.(Again these are data from NATPAC).

Even a conservative assumption of 10% of these being between the major cities in Kerala along NH 66 or NH 544 or MC Rd, that's about 10 lakh trips.
If at least 10 percent of people are willing to shift to semi HSR rail, that would be a daily potential ridership of 1 lakh.
I'd still wait for the DPR to see the methodology they used.
If anybody has data on the total traffic counts on our National Highways please share.


If you have any details or data based arguments, please reply, and not with lazy generic statements like "Automatic Signalling can easily increase capacity at a fraction of the cost " or "3rd and 4th line can easily be laid" and blah blah..Otherwise I do not want to waste my time in this discussion.

Regards.......
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Old November 17th, 2019, 03:03 AM   #19418
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All your points have been touched by me at one time or the other. It will be superfluous to repeat it again and again. I am a practical man living by my own experience and common sense. I do not quote any statistics of natpack or something to formulate my opinion. It means nothing except fiddling with figures to suit your argument. It is an old trick. At the most I go by news reports.

If you want, the following points I am repeating again.

1. If it was a high speed rail like bullet trains I would not have recommended it along with the present line. A 130 or 150 km speed can definitely be achieved in a separate line along with the present line. In Delhi Agra line it is already done in the present line itself. Not even in a new line.

2. Nobody said speed can be increased by introducing modern signalling system. All said was frequency of trains can be increased. I wrote it with the example of Mumbai. When the example is before your eyes, why do you pretend you are blind?

3. If curves are impediment to speed, it can be straightened with a fraction of the cost needed for a new line. Do not say me it cannot be done. We are not a tribal society which has not seen a rail in their life.

4. Acquiring land along the present line is easier. Already there is a buffer zone on both the sides, which in principle railway has got juridiscation. It is not like evacuating 1.5 lac people and demolishing 40,000 houses.

5. You cannot shut your eyes to human suffering for a fancy project which achieves nothing and solves nothing. Especially when it can be easily built along the present line. This human suffering is my main worry and concern.

6. There is no evidence any where in the world railway lines can reduce pressure on your roads. And it hasn't. Take even a small unit, like metro lines which are built with the ostensible pretension of making your city roads a garden pathway. It has not worked any where in India. Not in Delhi. Not in Bengaluru. Not in Kochi. The traffic on road has only increased. It is not hard to understand why. A single vehicle, a bus can carry 50 passengers to the destination. If these 50 passengers are to use the Metro they are using 50 vehicles on road instead of one bus, to reach a metro station and to move away from a metro station.

I have covered all your main points worth covering. The rest of your writings were only hog wash. A mere play with the words.

I am not going to write anything more on this subject. If you are not satisfied with it, remain unsatisfied. If you are an incorrigible optomist my best wishes to you for a pleasant journey in your fancy toy destroying the lives of 1.5 lac people. Definitely you deserve this toy, because you are bored woth your old toy called bullet train through over use. So you need something with a 'semi high speed'. You are done with your full speed.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 05:06 AM   #19419
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Sorry one more point.

I have got every right to oppose a 'semi high speed rail', just as you have got every right to speak for it. Both of these are our opinions only. My opinion or your opinion is not going to change any project. Semi high speed or very high speed or flying rail may come or may not come. The bullet trains first came in Kerala and all of us rejoiced like any thing. Then it stopped coming. Nothing changed in Kerala.

At least I am grateful to Navjot, that he presented his opinion in a decent way, except 'blah.blah' part he used to refer to me. Navjot is not like the wise man from Kozhikode, whose arguments start and end with 'thee...' and 'thoo...'.

Thanks for the small mercies.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 10:52 AM   #19420
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Originally Posted by kuppatakkath View Post
Still nobody answers my question.

1. How can we demolish 40,000 houses and rehabiltiate 1.5 lac people? And for what?

2. What is the cost of the proposed project?

3. How we are going to recover the cost?

4. What is the percentage of people going to be benefited by this line? What is the percentage of people who are going to suffer?

Without answering these questions we cannot proceed. it is useless.

A bullet train is planned between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. I know the terrain very well. It can be built without displacing large numbers of people. If the terrain of Kerala was same, my objection would have been minimal. Even if it bleeds the exchequer and our pocket by running in to huge loss.
1. We are going to demolish those houses the same way we are planning to do on Maradu flats & why we should we need to rehabilitate those people who themselves can be proud to be a part of a state with an unique transportation model called "SHSR" . For what- We ( Our Govt) needs to prove that they did something extra ordinary which should be highlighted as a Model and which have sufficient loopholes for corruption . HSR itself is a new concept where nobody knows the cost ; how to reap the cost & say who will use the system hence making it a cow with big udder to milk .

2. We will subsidize the entire journey say one way travel from Trivandrum to Kasargod at 4000 INR ( Per capita monthly Income of an average malayali is only four times this amount) . Though this is costlier we will subsidize it for those who use the system for writing PSC exam , Senior Citizens , Ladies , Transgenders , NRIS' , Scheduled Tribe quota & Ex Service men . . If possible we will take Advertisements from Malabar Gold , Josco Jewellery , Kalyan Silks , Lulu Group & Milma and paint coaches with the entire ad . You know this is an unique business model .

3. Is Cost recovery an important thing . I still remember a comment by a senior politician on train fare hike that What if Public transport run on loss After all Government is going to pay for the workers ?? tells us all about the economic knowledge of our ministers.

4. This silly old uncle Why are you always considered about people who use it ? If atleast four people travel on it ; we will run SHSR & that is what we call as Malayalee ...
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