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Old October 14th, 2019, 09:09 PM   #22581
slother
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potto View Post
Localism is a faddish word but a con. Every project will be reset with fancy renders and political words of support, but then end up in the same Whitehall cost analysis churn fighting against the NHS, MoD and that infinite cost pit that is the Private Landlord scam.
Just to clear, you're criticising Whitehall and government, not localism per se.

And perhaps, by extension, you're criticising of voters whose hearts are not quickened by pragmatic, piecemeal, incremental infrastructure developments.

If infrastructure can only ever gain the necessary political capital if it's grandoise, should rethink the governance of infrastructure and try to de-politicise it (to an extent)?
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Old October 14th, 2019, 10:30 PM   #22582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slother View Post
Just to clear, you're criticising Whitehall and government, not localism per se.

And perhaps, by extension, you're criticising of voters whose hearts are not quickened by pragmatic, piecemeal, incremental infrastructure developments.

If infrastructure can only ever gain the necessary political capital if it's grandoise, should rethink the governance of infrastructure and try to de-politicise it (to an extent)?
Great in theory but apart from junction improvements and some bus lanes, any serious infrastructure project costs some serious cash. Most large scale infrastructure projects will likely cross political boundaries and beyond any scope of any local authority to raise the cash in any future scenario. People would be in for some nasty shocks if local authorities could borrow hundreds of millions to be raised from council tax, or some form of extra local income or sales taxes. The consequences for local tax payers if it all goes wrong would be educational. So in reality central governments role will remain.

As to depoliticisation. Ha! we are talking about knocking things down, changing property values for better or worse. Noisy disruptive things that people don't like. It will always be intensely political.

What you need to do is build a growth coalition.
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Old October 16th, 2019, 03:37 PM   #22583
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TfN's submission to the HS2 Oakervee Review, dated 1st Oct:
https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-...26.09.2019.pdf
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Old October 16th, 2019, 10:26 PM   #22584
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Grant Shapps before Transport Committee on HS2...

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/inde...1&out=10:57:23

In reported speach - "all the rumours you've read in the press about this and that being cut are not true - I haven't had the report yet, so haven't made any decisions." And "as soon as I get the report, I expect to lay it before the House."
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Old October 17th, 2019, 02:06 PM   #22585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slother View Post
Just to clear, you're criticising Whitehall and government, not localism per se.

And perhaps, by extension, you're criticising of voters whose hearts are not quickened by pragmatic, piecemeal, incremental infrastructure developments.

If infrastructure can only ever gain the necessary political capital if it's grandoise, should rethink the governance of infrastructure and try to de-politicise it (to an extent)?
HS2 is more about national-scale joined-up-thinking to which localism is the opposite. Localism is provincialism and often contradictory in its mindset plus also tinged with an anti-urban stance in this country. For example smaller, less densly urban places might have support and proposals for mass-transit schemes to promote a modal shift but there will be even more people who see it as a threat to their status quo and chosen way of life.

HS2 is probably the only broad-stroke joined up national scheme (but still compromised by cost at a finer level) since the Motorway build programme. Whitehall is typically more comfortable with patch and mend but that has limitations. It is a big threat to the status quo of the long-expanding air and motor industry. HS2 should be seen as the necassary first part of a rail revival ie true expansion not just increased ridership or new trains. It is an enabler for further expansions. Ire should be directed at the slow pace or inabilty to run parrallel programmes not stopping it! HS2 is a perfectly pragmatic answer to real world issues today and it has more qualification to be the one to get the priority than anything else.

This idea that local schemes are somehow pragmatic whereas HS2 is some aloof "vanity" thing is exactly what I am getting at. If HS2 is vanity then everything else is too just at a local scale, why then isnt electrifiying random lines a vanity project?

Last edited by potto; October 17th, 2019 at 02:15 PM.
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