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Old Yesterday, 12:49 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s_w_stars View Post
Well, I just found it funny, nothing more to it. But if you wish to put more into her remark, Michelle Obama said, if they go low we go high....she just did the opposite to emphasize her point. IMO there are more important things that the MMDA could do with their time than to secure the rally site with 200 people in attendance. A few LEOs, yellow lines and barricades would have done the trick.

I think the gov't should just rescind the holiday status of people power, replace it with the Battle of Manila.
Correct! MMDA personnel could have done more productive traffic control jobs compared to babysitting about 200 people + who feel they have the sole right to decide who lives in Malacanang or not!
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Old Yesterday, 06:02 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magniko View Post
So peaking near the end of martial law means that they were heavily damaged.
This is just an ad-hoc answer. Nothing indicates they were weakened through martial law.
So were they stronger after Martial Law?


Quote:
The Huk's fought for the injustice between the elite and the lower class, most of whom were farmers working in haciendas. Yes, communist insurgencies are ALWAYS sourced from those at the bottom of society, in PH it's farmers.
Do you think that it's a coincidence that most of CPP's members are farmers?
Huk = Hukbahalahap. You want to google what "-hap" stood for?

The reason why you have many CPP-NPA who are farmers is because of Joma's strategy to recruiting from the provinces to go after the elite in the cities. The didn't fight because they farmers were neglected. They fought because they want to remove the elite and change the form of government. It's the same thing with ALL communist states since the Czars were murdered or executed.



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Hay naku, it's blatant you're close to being a loyalist when you dismiss the obvious fact that plundering took place during martial law. One doesn't have to be an Aquino-worshiper to see this. That's the problem with Marcos-loyalist. Almost every single criticism of him is struck down as propaganda. We all see what happened to the overall economic environment of the Philippines with him and his cronies in charge.
Did I say there wasn't plunder in the 1972 - 1981?

What I refuted is your theory that Marcos declared Martial Law so he can plunder the nation.

Martial Law of 1972 was legitimate. The communists were a legitimate threat. The Moros were a legitimate threat.

Quote:
125,000 active, and 180,000 reserve. Not that it matters much as it's not an argument to compare the force today with the force back then. I even see sources that state the strength of AFP in the 80's after Martial Law was at 200,000.

As for how many fighters there truly were, no source seem to explicitly say 800 in 1972, apologies.
but one says the following:
President Ferdinand Marcos declared martial law in 1972,
justifying this action by the need to suppress the "state of
rebellion" led by the NPA. By 1972, the NPA was estimated to have
approximately 1,000 to 2,000 armed personnel


Unless you consider cadres to be fighting forces(which they aren't), we're looking at a small force that might be a pain in the *ss


Interesting to know, which only confirms my argument:
By the end of 1983, according to CPP figures, party
membership had increased threefold from 10,000 to 30,000, and the
number of NPA soldiers (full or part-time) had increased from
8,000 to 20,000. With this increase in membership, the CPP was
able to expand into new territories.

So without Martial Law, the NPA managed to peak. And they never went beyond this. Did they manage to actually overthrow the government because there was no Martial Law?
See, you just contradicted yourself.

Even if the Global Security figure was correct, 1,000-2,000 is more than the 800 you said earlier.


Quote:
Well, you certainly do as you live in it. Not that you would ever be communist....
So you'd rather be in a communist state correct?

The "chaos" that you're describing today is very Maria Ressa... Remember, "more dangerous than any war zone"?


Quote:
So a force of 79,000 people vs around 2,000(or 5,000 if we assume they grew fast) in 1973. Do you honestly think those numbers add up to a huge threat that could overthrow the government?
So you're back tracking your 25,000 now? And ignore the 10,000 moro rebels?

By the way, ISIS had 20,000-30,000 forces in Iraq and Syria. Not a threat eh?



Quote:
Malaysia and Thailand are both constitutional monarchies, that means that they have a monarch who possesses some executive powers, but that's about it. To think that they solved the communist insurgencies because they were monarchies is a bit far-fetched.
I mean Marcos at the time was kind of like a Monarch either way

Do you think King George VI did most of the decision making during WWII?
Constitutional Monarchy + Parliamentary System. Still faster than our Presidential Democratic form of government.


Quote:
Moros were indeed a threat, but only in the fact that they would secede. They had no plans of actually overthrowing the government, and they were mostly contained in the Bangsamoro region. Despite the harsh crackdown, where Martial Law actually was useful, the movement continued to prevail until we realized "hey, what about giving them self rule but still incorporating them within our territory?". It's ridiculous how much lives could have been saved if the country's visionaries just thought of this on day 1.
Amazing.

It's better that they would no longer be part of the Philippines then?

You thought the Moros just want a piece of Mindanao and not the whole of it?


Quote:
never were they half the size of the AFP... At most they were 1/5th-1/6th
Even if that were true, that is still insignificant to you?


Quote:
The Government is now employing diplomacy to make NPA rebels give up their arms. It has been EXTREMELY effective seeing thousands of surrenderees getting livelihood programs that makes them productive members of society. See, no need to use martial law, just plain diplomacy.
This statement is as crazy as it gets.

You think the situation in 1972 is the same as 2017?

The USA just lost in Vietnam! Communism was ramping up everywhere!

It's easier to use diplomacy today because we've had 50 years of experience where we showed communists they're not winning and will probably not win the next 50 years!

There are no cellphones and social media in 1972 as well. So much easier to blind stupid people from the good of a democratic system, and pollute your minds with only the negative stuff.

Quote:
Here you are oblivious to what I said:
martial law in Mindanao is very justified because that's the place in Philippines with the worst peace and order situation. That's how it has been for decades. If Marcos only imposed Martial Law there, I would have nothing against it. The problem is it was imposed nationwide. And I personally see it was unnecessary considering there were no NPA-backed coups that took over the government for the 5 years Philippines was without Martial Law under Marcos.
Here, you are oblivious that Communists were, and still are, ALL over the country -- Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.

In Mindanao, you had the Moro Rebels mostly in Western Mindanao and then the ARMM, plus communists in ALL other regions.

if the NPA were not all over the country, and not in Metro Manila, perhaps Marcos would have considered Martial Law in Mindanao only.
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Old Yesterday, 07:36 AM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fretburner View Post

Amazing.

It's better that they would no longer be part of the Philippines then?

You thought the Moros just want a piece of Mindanao and not the whole of it?

True. They actually want all of it. Buti naman na-tone down ngayon sa existing Bangsamoro jurisdiction. Lahat naman ata nagulantang sa pagputok ng MOA AD back in the early 10s.

Let us not try to see the events of yesterday with the lenses of today.

Guys I am loving these discussions. Kaso nalilito ako kaninong figures ba talaga ang tama hahahaha
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Old Yesterday, 10:57 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red_wolf View Post
Guys I am loving these discussions. Kaso nalilito ako kaninong figures ba talaga ang tama hahahaha
Google Books

Page 84. 1972 AFP strength (incl. PC) at 62,715. 1976 - height of Moro Insurgency - AFP at 142,450
Page 88. 1972 NPA est. strength at 1,000 and Moro Rebels at 14,000
Page 90. 1975 Moro Rebels est. 20,000


Official Gazette

Table II-7 — Strength of the AFP: 1971 – 1990
1971 AFP + PC = 57,100
1976 AFP + PC = 113,000
1985 AFP + PC = 158,300
1990 AFP + PC = 147,369
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Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fretburner View Post
This statement is as crazy as it gets.

You think the situation in 1972 is the same as 2017?

The USA just lost in Vietnam! Communism was ramping up everywhere!

It's easier to use diplomacy today because we've had 50 years of experience where we showed communists they're not winning and will probably not win the next 50 years!

There are no cellphones and social media in 1972 as well. So much easier to blind stupid people from the good of a democratic system, and pollute your minds with only the negative stuff.
This.

I too was once blinded by the idea that Martial Law was used by FM as a way to expand his power.

Tried to do some actual digging on the national history of the PH and geopolitical history across the world and started to realize that Martial Law was a necessary evil to prevent the country from falling under communist rule.

You'll also notice that this rationale for the ML is being deliberately hidden in the textbooks and by the mainstream media, so the automatic assumption by many is that ML was all bad.

If ML did not happen, there would have been a proxy war between the pro democracy and communist forces (way uglier than ML).

Or we may be in a south-north korea kind of situation with Mindanao having successfully sequestered from Luzon and Visayas (North and South PH sounds ugly).

Or worse, something like Vietnam where the entire country has turned communist.

ML was Macoy's way of staying ahead of the curve against the communist uprisings in the region at that time.

His decision to be "proactive" rather than "reactive" is actually something that I admire.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedmosley View Post
This.
You'll also notice that this rationale for the ML is being deliberately hidden in the textbooks and by the mainstream media, so the automatic assumption by many is that ML was all bad.
And if you said something that is NOT negative, people will call you either a "loyalist" or "apologist".

Authors would NOT dare write anything objective, more so positive, on ML and Marcos, else they will feel the wrath of the Aquinos, FVR and the Liberal Party... That's 18 years post-Marcos...

Lots of things missing or unwritten between 1972 til today, and so if you write something not according to the Aquino narrative, they will call it "revisionism".
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Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM   #387
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Had I not encountered personal testimony from baby boomers from all walks of life in the provinces a decade ago, I would've seen Marcos' Martial Law in a bad light too. I wondered then, If ML was that bad, why these people long for martial law days in the 70's and 80's? Took me time to uncover the truth behind the proclamation and the life of most people had during the ML years as alternate perspectives are kinda scarce and hard to find then.
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Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fretburner View Post
So were they stronger after Martial Law?
Well yes, and they still didn't even come close to being able to topple the government.


Quote:

Huk = Hukbahalahap. You want to google what "-hap" stood for?
yeah, so apparently, they would stop fighting once the Japanese left. Huks had the same upbringing as all communists: fight against the elite by the proletariat. This elite can also be the occupuying/colonizing force(in Malaysia it was Britain). The Viet Minh was formed during WWII and fought against the Japanese, even getting funding from the US

Quote:
The reason why you have many CPP-NPA who are farmers is because of Joma's strategy to recruiting from the provinces to go after the elite in the cities. The didn't fight because they farmers were neglected. They fought because they want to remove the elite and change the form of government. It's the same thing with ALL communist states since the Czars were murdered or executed.
Oh so the proletariat, aka farmers, were recruited to fight the elite? Sounds pretty Communist to me. Fact: most of the proletariat in Russia during the revolution were farmers. Most of the proletariat in China were farmers during the Chinese communist revolution(Sorry, I remembered that word just now.) It has always been like this. Sure you can say it's not because they are farmers, but their cause is the same. And the farmers were ruled with injustice by the elite, as we can see what happened with haciendas. It's the inequality that they suffered that recruited them. Otherwise why would they join? Those who are oppressed are those most likely to join the communist cause. And that inequality was generally sourced by them being powerless because they were landless and poor. If a movement draws interest from a specific profession group, then that movement is very relevant to that kind of profession.

Infact, Samar has been an NPA stronghold because that's where one of the worst landlessness cases occurred.

This article examines the theoretical constructs of insurgency warfare and demonstrates how Samar’s physical geography, fragmented political geography, poverty, and landlessness have contributed to the enduring presence of the New People’s Army on that island.



Quote:
Did I say there wasn't plunder in the 1972 - 1981?

What I refuted is your theory that Marcos declared Martial Law so he can plunder the nation.
Well I neither implied the same, it's not the only reason. I believe he declared it also because he perceived the communists to be a threat but it wasn't necessary.

Quote:
Martial Law of 1972 was legitimate. The communists were a legitimate threat. The Moros were a legitimate threat.
The Moros were a far bigger threat. Bigger force, bigger and more unified cause, and they were concentrated in a small area. Secession would be way more likely than a communist take over.

Quote:
See, you just contradicted yourself.

Even if the Global Security figure was correct, 1,000-2,000 is more than the 800 you said earlier.
Apologies on that but you gotta admit, 2,000 is about the size the NPA is now. Are they a threat? Will they storm Malacaņang and behead Duterte with a guillotine any moment now? They are a joke. Nothing more than a pain in the *ss who kills innocents.




Quote:
So you'd rather be in a communist state correct?

The "chaos" that you're describing today is very Maria Ressa... Remember, "more dangerous than any war zone"?
Ad hominem. You are not a war zone, but you aren't exactly a stable democracy or state yet. Not that you live in absolute chaos, that's the 80's for ya with numerous coups.




Quote:
So you're back tracking your 25,000 now? And ignore the 10,000 moro rebels?

By the way, ISIS had 20,000-30,000 forces in Iraq and Syria. Not a threat eh?
Note that I try to compare the size of the AFP in 1973 with a VERY liberal estimate of the size of the NPA at that time.

ISIS is a completely different force in a completely different environment. You cannot compare a well-armed, well-supplied fanatic concentrated force in a flat desolate environment with a split rebel group that mostly did hit-and-run skirmishes on military/police outposts in a tropical forested and mountainous s. In addition we saw AFP deal with them at their peak without Martial Law




Quote:
Constitutional Monarchy + Parliamentary System. Still faster than our Presidential Democratic form of government.
Are you telling me that Philippines was a democracy during martial law? Or are you implying that the Philippines needed martial law to circumvent the disadvantages of a Presidential Democratic system? Regardless, this very irrelevant. A parliament is faster in dealing with legislative issues and change of leadership, but nothing indicates it is faster in dealing with rebellion.




Quote:
Amazing.

It's better that they would no longer be part of the Philippines then?

You thought the Moros just want a piece of Mindanao and not the whole of it?
Ad hominem again. In addition, there's nothing to indicate that they would want all of Mindanao, just the ARMM or Bangsamoro. Most of the Maguindanao Sultanate, Lanao Sultanate and Sulu Sultanate was in present day Bangsamoro. They are Muslims and didn't want to be ruled by a secular on paper by strongly catholic in practice-nation and face the oppression they did. At least they didn't permanently settle with Communism, that would have been a disaster.
But nothing indicates they would want all of Mindanao.

Prove me otherwise




Quote:
Even if that were true, that is still insignificant to you?
not really but the AFP dealt with them just fine without ML




Quote:
This statement is as crazy as it gets.

You think the situation in 1972 is the same as 2017?
Almost. Had you incentivized the NPA fighters to stay loyal to your government by offering what they want: land and livelihood to get out of poverty, I am certain most of the would abandon the communist cause. Not as fast and effectively, but we would see similar results in Thailand and Malaysia. Or you could pull a Suharto but that is not acceptable.


Quote:
The USA just lost in Vietnam! Communism was ramping up everywhere!

South Vietnam lost to North Vietnam. US wasn't even present when this happened. I believe you should study this war much more thoroughly. It's also COMPLETELY fallacious to compare Vietnam with the Philippines. 2 completely different scenarios. How is Philippines supposed to receive shipments of tanks, trucks and millions of assault rifles? Have you seen how much(or few) weapons the NPA had at their peak?

Quote:
It's easier to use diplomacy today because we've had 50 years of experience where we showed communists they're not winning and will probably not win the next 50 years!
Maybe, I'll give you that. But many of the NPA fighters back then are dead or too old to fight. Most of the fighters are recently recruited. And even then, they were dealt with at their peak post Martial Law, something I have to repeat ad infinitum

Quote:
There are no cellphones and social media in 1972 as well. So much easier to blind stupid people from the good of a democratic system, and pollute your minds with only the negative stuff.
Nah, but I don't think many NPA fighters have smartphones today either. This is just ad hoc arguments. I don't believe that



Quote:
Here, you are oblivious that Communists were, and still are, ALL over the country -- Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao.
And that's why they would never be a force that could topple the government. They were basically a mini VietCong: A fractured group spread all across the islands country and doing nothing more than hit and run attacks or small skirmishes. How many big scale battles did we see? How many cities fell to communist rebels? This is exactly why they have always failed. They are a pain in the *rse but not an actual threatning fighting force unlike the Moros who had massive support from the locals and are concentrated in one area.



Quote:
if the NPA were not all over the country, and not in Metro Manila, perhaps Marcos would have considered Martial Law in Mindanao only.
Nah, had the NPA been concentrated only on one island, that would be serious. If all the 25,000 fighters would focus all their strength on say Samar, which is considered an NPA stronghold(lol), it would be within the realms of possibility that they could conquer the whole island. This would make it much easier to brainwash the locals and make them take up arms, thus expanding their force.

But nah, the NPA we saw were a bunch of rice farmers who did at most ambushes against the military and firmly believed this would somehow kill all of AFP and make people joining their cause in eventually overthrowing the government....
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Last edited by Magniko; Yesterday at 05:07 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:52 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by KRipler View Post
Had I not encountered personal testimony from baby boomers from all walks of life in the provinces a decade ago, I would've seen Marcos' Martial Law in a bad light too. I wondered then, If ML was that bad, why these people long for martial law days in the 70's and 80's? Took me time to uncover the truth behind the proclamation and the life of most people had during the ML years as alternate perspectives are kinda scarce and hard to find then.
There are people in Russia who believed that the USSR was better.
It's a natural habit of old people to believe everything was better in the past.
For some ML was the worst thing in their lives
For some ML didn't impact their lives at all
For some ML was the best thing ever

Some also believe that the years of Cory was the best the Philippines had, and that PNoy was BPE.

From an objective point of view, there was indeed a better peace and order situation in the Philippines during the first years of Martial Law and most people were unaffected by it.
But many claim ridiculous things like that there were no poverty during martial law, that's simply untrue. There were alot of good things that came out during the Marcos administration, but it all went so terribly wrong in the end, and a leader who seemed like a genuine visionary in the early years turned became corrupted by his cronies who needed more money for to save their failed projects that didn't benefit anyone but themselves, and left the Philippines in one of its worst states ever.

All I care about is that a nationwide ML wasn't necessary or at least clearly didn't work as intended and seemed like a band aid solution. After ML was lifted, NPA was still there, Moro secessionist movements were still strong(but clearly not as strong as in the mid 70s).
Had ML solved these issues, it would have been an excellent decision by Marcos, and Philippines would be much different today. But guess what? It didn't. Rebellion persisted, Philippines has the longest communist insurgency, and the solution to the Moro secessionist problem(autonomy) could seriously have been considered as early as post WWII.
It's probably for a good reason why Marcos eventually decided to lift martial law in 1981...
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #390
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I actually haven't encountered anyone in person in VisMin who personally experienced Macoy's martial law days in a negative light. Only by a handful of millenial activists who's position is clearly questionable given their communist leaning ideologies. Majority of all the person I saw (mostly in media) who's anti-ML were all found in Luzon, the epicenter of communism.

Nationwide martial then was the best option of the government given the huge muslim separatists in the south, and the threat of communism in Luzon, Visayas, and Eastern Mindanao. The serious threat of cold war communism was evident when the US embraced, cooperated, and installed dictators in many countries to halt its spread. I believe democracy then was losing in many parts of the world.

I never said that what happened during that time are all great. There may be a lot of good and bad stuffs happening. Macoy may have done something terrible. All I'm saying is that without ML, the Philippines would've been a communist state and Mindanao an independent islamic country.
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