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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #61
cambennett
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How has it disadvantaged them?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #62
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From another thread:
Why is there a Ministry of Maori development, and a Ministry of Women's affairs etc?

I understand that Maori are generally overrepresented in crime, health problems, and so on, but this is just racism.

At university, there are Maori and Pacific Islanders addmisions schemes into competive courses,m essentially giving them a shortcut into these competitive courses. Why should I have to sacrafice my place in this course after having worked hard for it, for someone else who happens to be of a certain ethnicity?

And what's up with Pacific Islanders? They're not even natives.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizz_pat View Post
From another thread:
Why is there a Ministry of Maori development, and a Ministry of Women's affairs etc?

I understand that Maori are generally overrepresented in crime, health problems, and so on, but this is just racism.

At university, there are Maori and Pacific Islanders addmisions schemes into competive courses,m essentially giving them a shortcut into these competitive courses. Why should I have to sacrafice my place in this course after having worked hard for it, for someone else who happens to be of a certain ethnicity?

And what's up with Pacific Islanders? They're not even natives.
I agree on that point. I'm not convinced on racial quotas for university courses . I think it actually enforces a feeling of inferiority by saying "you don't have to acheive the same standard as everyone else" Also as you say it's not fair on someone who has acheived the required standard and has to miss out just because of their ethnicity.


That still does not answer the question how the Treaty of Waitangi has disadvantaged Maori. I don't actually have a strong opinion on that point. I'm just interested to hear the argument behind it.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #64
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I'm not too sure, but I think it has something to do with giving the British the right to rule over the country. Maori theoretically had right to the land, but the British ended up confiscating land anyway (at least I think).
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Old March 17th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #65
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The argument often goes that Maori and Pacific Islanders are under-represented so therefore they need a hand. However, unless there is institutional racism preventing these ethnicities from getting into courses, they are probably under-represented because of socio-economic reasons. Therefore, it should be those with low socio-economic status who should be given assistance. Poor Europeans are likely to be just as disadvantaged as poor Maori, and therefore probably deserve just as much help.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 01:49 AM   #66
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Agreed 100%.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 04:04 AM   #67
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Speaking from someone who sees the benefits that MAPAS students get on the Medical programme at UofA, I can't help but agree with you slightly that priority places at University are not the way to go forwards.

However, in saying this, I very much agree that because of their overrepresentation in all of the "bad" demographic attributes that the Ministry of Maori Development is required.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 04:22 AM   #68
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Specific ministries are generally required when other ministries ignore a particular role. For example, a Ministry for the Environment might not be necessary if all other ministries actually gave a damn about the environment. Same for Women's Affairs and (arguably) Maori affairs/development.

I think the biggest argument against 'positive discrimination' (or whatever you want to call it) is that it devalues those of that minority who are in the course. If I'm a Maori who made it into med school because i got the necessary marks and so forth, everyone's going to think I only got there because I'm Maori. That would annoy the hell out of me, and is actually quite degrading.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 05:24 AM   #69
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Te Puni Kōkiri/Ministry of Maori Development is essentially a Policy orientated Ministry with less than $30 million in actual service delivery (i.e. programme funding) to Maori. The vast amount of targeted expenditure for Māori is delivered through mainstream government departments, whether that's Education, Health or Work and Income/MSD etc.

TPK contributes to wider government Policy areas such as Treaty settlements, foreshore and seabed, natural resource and land utilisation, legislative reform. It also oversees the other Crown entities in Vote Maori Affairs: Taura Whiri (Maori Language Commission) and Te Mangai Paho. Its chief purpose is to provide the Minister of Maori Affairs and the government with intelligence on the Maori world to inform strategic direction.

I think that as long as there is a Maori Affairs portfolio, there will be some form of Maori ministry within the machinery of government. Even without the Treaty of Waitangi, under international law, the NZ govt would have some degree of fiduciary obligation toward the wellbeing of Maori as the indigenous people of New Zealand. The Treaty just makes the NZ situation more explicit than in some other post colonial environments.

Given the predominantly lower socio-economic status of the Maori population (although there are many middle class Maori), and the youthfulness of the demographic, there is a very clear need for policies that assist Maori to fulfil their potential. That's to the benefit of all New Zealanders and doesn't take away from policies that target any other group of the population. The issue is about the mix of policies not whether there should be any policy in the first place.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 06:15 AM   #70
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Islanders get assistance for being islanders? I never knew that. That's actually quite appalling. They don't deserve that any more than anyone else. Where's Winston Peters when you need him? (he did have his uses)

I can only understand the reasoning behind Maori, being indigenous...but even that's a bit iffy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarbury View Post

I think the biggest argument against 'positive discrimination' (or whatever you want to call it) is that it devalues those of that minority who are in the course. If I'm a Maori who made it into med school because i got the necessary marks and so forth, everyone's going to think I only got there because I'm Maori. That would annoy the hell out of me, and is actually quite degrading.
What's worse is the number of people who exploit it. A lot of my classmates with Maori ancestry who needed no assistance whatsoever got grants and things with the attitude of 'stupid Maoris giving us money'. I imagine much of it goes to people like that who don't actually need any assistance.

Last edited by Richard7666; March 17th, 2009 at 06:22 AM.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 07:59 AM   #71
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That's why assistance based on socio-economic background is alot fairer than assistance based on race.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 08:28 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizz_pat View Post

That's why assistance based on socio-economic background is alot fairer than assistance based on race.
Agree entirely.

It could also be argued that the University of Auckland's Tuakana scheme discriminates against other races because it only helps those of Maori and Pacific Island backgrounds. Not only can they take advantage of this scheme but also the general schemes open to all students. I don't begrudge them their right to support but boy would it be nice to a European-based support group, or Asian, African etc.

Many harp on about equality. For me, equality is shown when you see someone as a person regardless of who they are. By all means, live up your culture, but when it comes to the common needs that all humans share, flying the flag of your race is hypocritical.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:11 PM   #73
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Maori and pacific island students have to pass their courses just like everyone else once they are accepted through the quota - the quota is to ensure access to disadvantaged groups, and to attempt to achieve a more balanced and diverse population in all industries; imagine if your teachers, doctor, lawyer etc were all Maori, would you be ok with that? if they treated you based on their cultural views?

the treaty of waitangi will never be abolished, it is the founding document of our country, if we became a republic, the constitution would either include or re-iterate what is stated in the treaty, maori wouldn't accept any less I expect, and the UN etc wouldn't support us in doing any different

ethnicity is self-defined in NZ, so technically you could say you are Maori or PI and get the scholarships but why would you? take money from people who need it, just because you feel hard done by,

It really amazes me that so many NZers don't understand our history and constitutional status, if they did, there wouldn't be pointless arguing about Maori getting special privleges or whatever
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:37 PM   #74
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Maori and PI students are not inherently disadvantaged, those from low socio-economic backgrounds are. And since these groups are over-represented among the low income population affirmative action based on income rather than race will lead to a more balanced demographic anyway.

The current system is completely flawed, for instance I know two guys who got into second year law with piss poor first year GPAs (around 3.5 each) on the PI quota. One of them is Fijian Indian, the other 1/4 Samoan, and neither come from disadvantaged backgrounds.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 12:49 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puketotara View Post
Maori and pacific island students have to pass their courses just like everyone else once they are accepted through the quota - the quota is to ensure access to disadvantaged groups, and to attempt to achieve a more balanced and diverse population in all industries; imagine if your teachers, doctor, lawyer etc were all Maori, would you be ok with that? if they treated you based on their cultural views?

ethnicity is self-defined in NZ, so technically you could say you are Maori or PI and get the scholarships but why would you? take money from people who need it, just because you feel hard done by,

It really amazes me that so many NZers don't understand our history and constitutional status, if they did, there wouldn't be pointless arguing about Maori getting special privleges or whatever
Maori fine, PI not. And not all Maori and Islanders are disadvantaged. As I said, the majority I know just exploit it.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #76
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Why pacific islanders? why are they so special? Why does NZ feel the need to make them apart of this countries culture?

I have no idea about NZ's immigration laws, but Ive heard that if a pacific islander gets citezinship they can bring their entire family into the country alwell? Also doesn't immigration laws allow people into the country based on what skills they have which would be benefitial to the economy? I dont think this country needs immigrants coming hear to sit on their buts and collect the doll.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 11:55 PM   #77
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Quote:
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LOL. More political extremism from DML2.

And typically with no reasoning behind it.... come on, you just sound like a redneck.
Most Maori didn't sign it, some that did were fooled into it, the separate versions said different things... it's laughable that this is seen as the document on which the nation is founded. It was even lost for quite a few years, I mean, what the ****?

And I'm not a ******* redneck, nor am I more politically extreme than you
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:01 AM   #78
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did any of you actually read my post?

one of the main reasons for quota (besides disadvantage), is to try to make the balance of people in these professions better match the demographics of the population

as for your friends Howdy, I guess some people just have no conscience, funny that they are law students - perhaps a little telling... and expect that if the continue to have bad marks they wont be allowed into 3rd year - the university must maintain standards no matter what

tonyNZ - what have you got against PIs? yes they can bring their family, just like every other catagory of immigrant. many PIs work very hard for little pay, because of barriers like language, and lack of skills. many of them work 2 or more jobs, and what about the europeans? why should any unemployed white people get the dole? they are immigrants too, and they have been here longer and so taken more from the country...
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:25 AM   #79
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Puketotara.... yes your post makes a good point about getting the balance of particular professions to match the demographics of the country. I agree that's important as for example if you want to give a Maori community the best healthcare it might be most suitable for them to have a Maori doctor who understands the culture etc.

However, one must ask "why wouldn't you get that anyway?" Do Maori people just inherently not want to become doctors? Do we assume they're too bloody stupid to become doctors without assistance? No (well at least I hope not)... it's because (generally) their socio-economic situation makes it difficult for them to compete against someone from a much higher socio-economic situation. After all, they might not be able to afford private tutors, or even have a room of their own to study in.

However, this doesn't get past the question of why not provide assistance based on socio-economic status rather than on ethnicity? I guess it might be harder to promote "a poor people assistance class" than a "Maori and PI assistance class", but in the end neither is really more offensive than the other.

In the end it comes down to the question of who is more worthy for assistance out of a rich Maori/PI student living in Parnell, and some poor white person from Otara?

Regarding Pacific Islanders, in a way they could be considered to have a grievance against the government in a similar, though obviously not as significant, sense to Maori. Most Pacific Islanders in NZ immigrated (or are the children of immigrants) in the 1950s-1970s to work in the factories of NZ when we had a labour shortage, they were bunged together in pretty poor quality housing in places like Otara & Mangere and then pretty much given no rights. I'm sure we all know about the dawn raids as a pretty disgraceful chapter of the country's history.

But in the end, the manifestation of their previous disadvantage is only really experienced by a portion of the population (even if it is a fairly significant portion) today. Once again it comes back to socio-economic situations, which are clearly a much fairer way to decide who needs and doesn't need help. If language is an issue, then clearly it might be necessary to provide assistance there too..... although one would think that would be a more significant issue for all the Asian students we have.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:30 AM   #80
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Quote:
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Most Maori didn't sign it, some that did were fooled into it, the separate versions said different things... it's laughable that this is seen as the document on which the nation is founded. It was even lost for quite a few years, I mean, what the ****?
most? how do you know that? Most british didn't sign it either... so the point is irrelevant

Give Maori a bit more credit - fooled into it? I don't think so, maybe lied to, Maori were in the dominant position in 1840, uniting with Pakeha had advantages for them, which they had already been getting since the first arrival of Europeans

The UN also had the position that the indigenous language version of any treaty is the correct version - it's only our ignorant govt that ignores this, and makes us work with two versions...
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