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Old July 21st, 2018, 05:43 AM   #121
Avian001
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The problem is that developers know full well about their "pragmatic considerations" way before construction begins. Yet they rarely update their fantasy renderings that are used to convince city officials to approve their projects. (Not convinced? You can bet your life that a contractor is bidding on the actual legal drawings - which are contractual - and not on a "proposed rendering.") And - this is important - that's why drawings submitted to the CPED or other authorities are marked "not for construction." I've been involved with many, many public "renderings" that have little to do with the actual building.

This practice is widespread and is tantamount to fraud. And cities need to come down hard on the bait and switch tactics. And so do the courts. Because the residents of a city have to live with sometimes poor results for the rest of their lives. The problem is that aesthetics are rarely grounds for lawsuits.

Go back to the "renderings" on the first page of this thread. Compare the glass coverage. Compare the alternating jogs of the facade in the corner to the tame, unified angles in the actual project. And what happened to the top two stories? (I'm willing to concede on the last point because it's not finished. But the profile of the floor plates here do not match with the sales images.)

Developers can get away with murder using a "practicality" defense when it comes to design. "Aw, gee. Times are tough, so we had to cut corners." But what they really mean is "let's eliminate these elements so we can make 200 grand more."
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Old July 21st, 2018, 06:43 AM   #122
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The cynical side of me agrees completely with your comment, unfortunately.
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Old October 22nd, 2018, 03:14 AM   #123
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From the other day

[IMG]Ironclad Development by Anjunadeep91, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old November 8th, 2018, 10:38 PM   #124
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The crane is coming down on this one today.
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Old November 8th, 2018, 11:03 PM   #125
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Is there still time for this to look at all similar to the rendering?
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Old November 8th, 2018, 11:29 PM   #126
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I doubt it. The images really make the glass look blue giving the overall project more of a blue color than the blah black that it looks like right now, but in real life the glass really doesn't show that color at all. I think we're stuck with something close to what we're seeing right now which is really disappointing.
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Old November 10th, 2018, 07:49 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avian001 View Post
The problem is that developers know full well about their "pragmatic considerations" way before construction begins. Yet they rarely update their fantasy renderings that are used to convince city officials to approve their projects. (Not convinced? You can bet your life that a contractor is bidding on the actual legal drawings - which are contractual - and not on a "proposed rendering.") And - this is important - that's why drawings submitted to the CPED or other authorities are marked "not for construction." I've been involved with many, many public "renderings" that have little to do with the actual building.

This practice is widespread and is tantamount to fraud. And cities need to come down hard on the bait and switch tactics. And so do the courts. Because the residents of a city have to live with sometimes poor results for the rest of their lives. The problem is that aesthetics are rarely grounds for lawsuits.

Go back to the "renderings" on the first page of this thread. Compare the glass coverage. Compare the alternating jogs of the facade in the corner to the tame, unified angles in the actual project. And what happened to the top two stories? (I'm willing to concede on the last point because it's not finished. But the profile of the floor plates here do not match with the sales images.)

Developers can get away with murder using a "practicality" defense when it comes to design. "Aw, gee. Times are tough, so we had to cut corners." But what they really mean is "let's eliminate these elements so we can make 200 grand more."
Renderings can be showmanship (or worse) but much of the process is necessary.

When they start the public entitlement process, the developer has only a vague idea what the project will cost. Some of that is lack of information or too much unfounded optimism in some cases, and some is that if a project is let's say 12 or 18 months out, there's simply no way to predict where prices are going.

I don't know the MSP market, but in my area, major projects aren't bid by general contractors. We're hired based on qualifications, approach, and a few business terms, typically early in design. That way we can provide estimating, design ideas, scheduling, subcontractor relationships, etc., that they wouldn't have in-house, acting as a team member -- this gets them much closer to the truth, if they go that route.

But even then, much of the cost will be unknown at that point. Some of that can be big-picture stuff like structural system (tarrifs and retaliations wreaking havoc for example). Or commercial lending rates going up 2% in a year, perhaps with more equity required. Some will be the owner trying to improve the design to meet buyer/renter tastes as they evolve, but stay within budget. Some is the fact that most design work happens long after the schematic phase. And some is that construction costs for various scopes might rise 3% or 15% in 12 months. Ideally the design and target cost are refined as you go, but sometimes the result is they need to cut 3% of the cost at the end to make it work...value engineering by cutting scope.

Drawings are marked "not for construction" because it's easy for a gazillion drawings to become confusing, and because designers are liable for any errors in actual construction documents. And certainly anything used for the entitlement process is much too vague to build from, so it'll generally need to say that.

PS, without knowing about this project or the City's process, I'd guess that for any real change in the massing, they'd need to file amended documents for approval. But maybe not a full aesthetic review with downloadable presentation materials.
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Old November 21st, 2018, 11:56 PM   #128
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Old January 6th, 2019, 01:39 AM   #129
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Old January 13th, 2019, 12:15 AM   #130
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Old May 10th, 2019, 07:43 PM   #131
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There is a new article about this development in Street.MN today: https://streets.mn/2019/05/10/iron-c...UIG1K0Ty1droOk

This has to be the most disappointing building when it comes to presented renderings vs actual realized construction:


photo Streets.MN / Conrad Zbikowski

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Old May 10th, 2019, 08:24 PM   #132
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The renderings promised an incredible sunset, really not acceptable that developers keep cutting that part after getting approval.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 12:49 AM   #133
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Almost appears like the developer was intentionally deceptive with the original rendering. This project has been very slow to get completed. Maybe it will look better when the exterior is finished, but no doubt it's been dumbed down.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 01:55 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Deegan View Post
There is a new article about this development in Street.MN today: https://streets.mn/2019/05/10/iron-c...UIG1K0Ty1droOk

This has to be the most disappointing building when it comes to presented renderings vs actual realized construction:


photo Streets.MN / Conrad Zbikowski

I do believe you are correct Major, it's not what the renderings had shown us as far as the fruition of materials; however, in fairness, the images are not from the same angle. I'm fairly sure that the rendering is showing "its best face", while the very nice photo is not on the same "angle/target" for a fair comparison.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 05:47 AM   #135
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...I'm fairly sure that the rendering is showing "its best face", while the very nice photo is not on the same "angle/target" for a fair comparison.
Uhhh, no. It is a fair comparison. Look at the top floor. Those articulated facades don't exist in the actual building.
Try to find the missing balconies promised in the render that also don't exist in the real building (Hint: It's the incised window bays just to the left of the corner in the rendering.)

Also notice the very interesting, alternating triangular jagged balconies at the corner in the rendering. They died in in the actual building.

What we have now, is a depressingly ordinary 12-story building. It's just "OK." Nothing offensive. But also nothing like the original renders. It's a building that everyone can conveniently ignore on their way to work every morning. And it's an ordinary apartment building that I no longer have any interest in.

That is, if the daily throng of commuters can stay awake looking at architecture that will put you to sleep.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 06:02 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avian001 View Post
Uhhh, no. It is a fair comparison. Look at the top floor. Those articulated facades don't exist in the actual building.
Try to find the missing balconies promised in the render that also don't exist in the real building (Hint: It's the incised window bays just to the left of the corner in the rendering.)

Also notice the very interesting, alternating triangular jagged balconies at the corner in the rendering. They died in in the actual building.

What we have now, is a depressingly ordinary 12-story building. It's just "OK." Nothing offensive. But also nothing like the original renders. It's a building that everyone can conveniently ignore on their way to work every morning.

That is, if the daily throng of commuters can stay awake looking at architecture that will put you to sleep.
I'd love to rent an apartment that is - at the very least - interesting. Too bad Minneapolis developers don't have a clue about what's going on the in greater world. They are pretty provincial in my book.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 02:58 PM   #137
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So getting better financing to save money for customers at Alia is a good thing, but eliminating unnecessary features at this building to save money for customers is bad?? These buildings are meant to house people, they are not giant statues or monuments for tourists to look at.

Although some people want Minneapolis to be Shanghai or Paris or Rome, it is just a "provincial" midwest city that only has about 4 million people in the entire metro area. A metro area that is in the middle of nowhere. I think we forget about what Minnepolis is and why these buildings are built in the first place.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 04:50 PM   #138
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I'm mostly disappointed with that pop of color on the hotel portion.
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Old May 11th, 2019, 05:54 PM   #139
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Quote:
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I'm mostly disappointed with that pop of color on the hotel portion.
Could that be coming still, or are they done and took their cladding swatches home?
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Old May 11th, 2019, 08:34 PM   #140
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I'm mostly disappointed with that pop of color on the hotel portion.
Agree, adding that would make it look much better. Its too monochromatic.
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