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Old November 21st, 2008, 05:55 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
This paragraph sums up what I'm trying to convey. Toronto supports the Leafs and TFC, win or lose, but that's about it. We're a great Leafs town and a great soccer town, but not a great sports town. If you love sports, but not the Leafs, your options are limited. It's TFC or travel to another city that's into the sport you like.

I love basketball and football, but to enjoy the type of enthusiasm soccer and Leafs people get to enjoy in this city, I have to leave Toronto for Halifax or Regina. Basketball and football are hardly fringe sports. If this was the sports paradise that locals think it is, I wouldn't have to leave the city to get my fix.

Take football! The national college football championships are tomorrow. I wonder how many people in Toronto are planning to attend or watch it on television. Not only will they not know who is playing in the final, they won't know that it's taking place. Real lovers of the game of football will know these things.

I'll probably end up driving solo to Hamilton to watch Western battle Laval. Toronto loves football? The argument for that is so weak. By the way, I think we actually see this issue quite similarly even though it doesn't appear so on the surface. I'll also add that Skydome is great for baseball. My favourite seat is actually upper bowl behind home plate.
You might have mis-read what I said. I said that towns can be "football towns", or "hockey towns" but they don't necessarily support a broad range of sports which would be necessary to qualify as a Sports Town. I did not say Toronto was a "football town". However, seeing as you dismiss football support in Toronto as negligible (and refuse to acknowledge the strong interest in the NFL), let's actually look at the attendance statistics for the CFL, for 2008. The average attendance for all teams was 28,125. Toronto's avg attendance was 29,368. Montreal, putting aside all myths of rabid football support for one moment had an annual avg attendance of 20,202. Hamilton came in at 21,153. link:
http://www.geocities.com/cfl_histori...Attendance.htm
There is no question that the Canadian Football League is more popular in Western Canada, and has been for the last generation. But that does not mean that there is no support in Toronto for the CFL, as has been shown by the paid admission figures. Despite the fact there is a great deal of competition for the fan's attendance dollars, the CFL is doing not as badly in Toronto as people assume.
And you think Toronto does not support basketball? In 2008 the Raptor's home attendance average per game was 19,073, which was 7th highest out of the 30 teams in the National Basketball League. What more do you want??? link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance
Downtown Toronto has professional teams for Hockey, Football, Baseball, Basketball, and Soccer, which is far more than any other Canadian city has managed to support. Aside from the professional sports there is broad support for minor leagues (like the Marlies), and amateur sports (even including sports that are marginal in North America, like Cricket). I would tend to look upon that as quite an achievement, personally. You apparently see it in quite a different light. I am afraid we shall have to just agree to disagree on this one.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 06:56 PM   #82
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I know you didn't say that Toronto was a football town, but other people in Toronto seem to think Toronto loves football. Toronto doesn't. If you love a sport you support it. Toronto has 2 university teams, 1 pro team, and a lot of high school teams. Toronto doesn't support any of them.

I never said that support for the NFL was negligible. Where have I said that? No where! What I said is that many Torontonians are attracted to a brand called the NFL. The majority of them aren't football fans, they are NFL fans. If you have teams, but you opt for something else, you are attracted to the packaging.

Business students study this in marketing courses. People like this are often not attached to a good or service, but cache and being associated with something that they perceive to be valuable. If you listen to the first thing out of the mouths of Toronto NFL fans when you ask them about the CFL, most of them say: "it's minor league!" Bingo! They are attracted to the packaging rather than the actual product. Football fans? NO! Most of them are fans of a brand. That's Marketing 101.

That is my big beef with Toronto NFL fans. 80% of them aren't lovers of the game of football, they want to be associated with a brand. If the NFL one day becomes an uncool thing, most of them willl be gone as fast as an ice cube in a microwave. Football fans. Perhaps, 20% of them. The rest aren't.

Regarding attendance to home games. There's more there than meets the eye. Do you realize that Molson Stadium only holds 20,202? It's hard to estimate what true attendance would be if they had a larger stadium. Granted, they wouldn't be selling out 70,000 seat Olympic Stadium, but the Montreal Alouettes have recorded 88 consecutive sell outs at Molson Stadium dating back to 1999.

There were 38,000 + at their last game vs. the Eskimos which they played at Olympic Stadium. Their regular home attendance average would probably be in the 34,000 to 36,000 range if Molson could accommodate them. The fans have stated their preference for Molson over Olympic, that's why they play there. It's a great venue for football. Laval Universite attracts 10,000 to 18,000 people to regular season college football. This is in a metro of 700,000 people. U of T? York? They'd be lucky to get 1,000. Football is far bigger in Quebec. It just is.

Hamilton? 21,153 for Hamilton is a hell of a lot better support than 29,368 for Toronto. Toronto has 10 times the population and can only get 8,000 more out to a game? Pathetic! A city the size of Toronto should at the bare minimum be able to attract 80,000 to pro football. That would translate into sell outs at Skydome, and 25,000 on a waiting list for tickets.

The Raptors? Any city of 6,000,000 people should be able to draw 19,000 to basketball with their eyes shut. You can only fit 20,000 in a basketball arena. If you want to analyze how big basketball is in Toronto, you need to go to the universities, colleges, high schools, gyms, driveways, track media coverage, and listen to 'office chatter'.

Basketball is growing by leaps and bounds in Toronto, but is nowhere near the level of support in places like Halifax or Boston. Halifax gets 4,000 out to college ball, for God's sake. They drew 11,000 to a college game all the way back in the 1970s! Do you know how puny Halifax is? It's barely bigger than Oshawa! University of Toronto? York? Ryerson? They'd be lucky to get 500 people to a game.

In Halifax, you grow up dreaming of playing football or basketball for the local high school. Maybe even one of the universities. People in that town talk basketball and football. You can go up to some random person at Tim Horton's and ask them what they think of SMU's chances and they'll have some type of response. Here, they'd look at you with puzzled amusement. Ryerson Rams? What!?!#?

Toronto is big enough that it can support teams in 5 pro sports. Toronto has them only because of the population base here, not because Torontonians are a people that have a strong sports culture. 5 pro sports teams is the bare minimum for a city this size. It's not any great accomplishment. Melbourne's got 9 just in football. London has 5 just in Premiership alone. That doesn't even count all the teams in Division 1, Division 2, or Division 3.

I really don't think you get what 'sports town' means at all. I know you've lived in Winnipeg, but I don't think you've ever lived in a place where sports have permeated into the culture in a significant way. In Toronto we have lots of sporting choices, but sports is not a big part of the culture here like it is in real sports towns.

If you're searching for a place where you can talk sports with any random person on the street, or have an entire city get behind a team, that's simply not available here unless you're into the Leafs and maybe shortly TFC as well. Put another 5 pro football teams in Toronto that each draw 30,000 or more, another MLB team, another NBA team, 3 more MLS teams, draw 20,000 to Ryerson, York, and U of T home games in basketball and hockey; 50,000 for the same schools in football; then create a culture where high school games draw 1000 or more and I'll begin to change my mind.

This weekend is a prime example. I wonder how many Torontonians are going to the Vanier Cup or any sporting event this weekend. I bet it's less than 2% of the population for all sports combined. That's not a sports town. Hamilton gets over 3% of its metro population out to pro football. That's not even including the hundreds of other sports teams in Hamilton.

If Toronto was a sports town, I wouldn't have to go on sports vacations all the time.
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Last edited by isaidso; November 21st, 2008 at 07:56 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 07:00 PM   #83
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By using metropolitan population figures to hypothetically predict "suitable" attendance figures the New York Rangers should have an arena the size of LaGuardia, and pack in 200,000 people per game. (***just a joke so don't take it too seriously***). Somehow I did not expect that looking at actual attendance figures was going to accomplish anything, so I am going to exit the discussion now, as we are going in circles.Perhaps it is best to simply let the discussion go back to the topic of the thread.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 08:13 PM   #84
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200,000 spread over perhaps 20 teams in New York at the professional and college level, and I'd start to consider New York as a sports town. Just 20,000 New Yorkers going to hockey, nope! 60,000 isn't an impressive number either. 200,000 attending hockey on a regular basis is in the ball park. Of course, they'd have to post similar numbers in at least another 2 sports.

I'm getting a bit tired too, so I'll let this thread get back to Skydome talk. How about those Argonauts?
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Old November 21st, 2008, 08:27 PM   #85
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I like the Rogers Centre a lot. When I went up to Toronto for a Blue Jays-Yankees game back in September, thought it was a pretty nice stadium. Plus, it looks great at night...with the CN tower right next door.

As for NFL in Toronto...not going to happen unless another team gets in.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 02:44 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I know you didn't say that Toronto was a football town, but other people in Toronto seem to think Toronto loves football. Toronto doesn't. If you love a sport you support it. Toronto has 2 university teams, 1 pro team, and a lot of high school teams. Toronto doesn't support any of them.

I never said that support for the NFL was negligible. Where have I said that? No where! What I said is that many Torontonians are attracted to a brand called the NFL. The majority of them aren't football fans, they are NFL fans. If you have teams, but you opt for something else, you are attracted to the packaging.

Business students study this in marketing courses. People like this are often not attached to a good or service, but cache and being associated with something that they perceive to be valuable. If you listen to the first thing out of the mouths of Toronto NFL fans when you ask them about the CFL, most of them say: "it's minor league!" Bingo! They are attracted to the packaging rather than the actual product. Football fans? NO! Most of them are fans of a brand. That's Marketing 101.

That is my big beef with Toronto NFL fans. 80% of them aren't lovers of the game of football, they want to be associated with a brand. If the NFL one day becomes an uncool thing, most of them willl be gone as fast as an ice cube in a microwave. Football fans. Perhaps, 20% of them. The rest aren't.

Regarding attendance to home games. There's more there than meets the eye. Do you realize that Molson Stadium only holds 20,202? It's hard to estimate what true attendance would be if they had a larger stadium. Granted, they wouldn't be selling out 70,000 seat Olympic Stadium, but the Montreal Alouettes have recorded 88 consecutive sell outs at Molson Stadium dating back to 1999.

There were 38,000 + at their last game vs. the Eskimos which they played at Olympic Stadium. Their regular home attendance average would probably be in the 34,000 to 36,000 range if Molson could accommodate them. The fans have stated their preference for Molson over Olympic, that's why they play there. It's a great venue for football. Laval Universite attracts 10,000 to 18,000 people to regular season college football. This is in a metro of 700,000 people. U of T? York? They'd be lucky to get 1,000. Football is far bigger in Quebec. It just is.

Hamilton? 21,153 for Hamilton is a hell of a lot better support than 29,368 for Toronto. Toronto has 10 times the population and can only get 8,000 more out to a game? Pathetic! A city the size of Toronto should at the bare minimum be able to attract 80,000 to pro football. That would translate into sell outs at Skydome, and 25,000 on a waiting list for tickets.

The Raptors? Any city of 6,000,000 people should be able to draw 19,000 to basketball with their eyes shut. You can only fit 20,000 in a basketball arena. If you want to analyze how big basketball is in Toronto, you need to go to the universities, colleges, high schools, gyms, driveways, track media coverage, and listen to 'office chatter'.

Basketball is growing by leaps and bounds in Toronto, but is nowhere near the level of support in places like Halifax or Boston. Halifax gets 4,000 out to college ball, for God's sake. They drew 11,000 to a college game all the way back in the 1970s! Do you know how puny Halifax is? It's barely bigger than Oshawa! University of Toronto? York? Ryerson? They'd be lucky to get 500 people to a game.

In Halifax, you grow up dreaming of playing football or basketball for the local high school. Maybe even one of the universities. People in that town talk basketball and football. You can go up to some random person at Tim Horton's and ask them what they think of SMU's chances and they'll have some type of response. Here, they'd look at you with puzzled amusement. Ryerson Rams? What!?!#?

Toronto is big enough that it can support teams in 5 pro sports. Toronto has them only because of the population base here, not because Torontonians are a people that have a strong sports culture. 5 pro sports teams is the bare minimum for a city this size. It's not any great accomplishment. Melbourne's got 9 just in football. London has 5 just in Premiership alone. That doesn't even count all the teams in Division 1, Division 2, or Division 3.

I really don't think you get what 'sports town' means at all. I know you've lived in Winnipeg, but I don't think you've ever lived in a place where sports have permeated into the culture in a significant way. In Toronto we have lots of sporting choices, but sports is not a big part of the culture here like it is in real sports towns.

If you're searching for a place where you can talk sports with any random person on the street, or have an entire city get behind a team, that's simply not available here unless you're into the Leafs and maybe shortly TFC as well. Put another 5 pro football teams in Toronto that each draw 30,000 or more, another MLB team, another NBA team, 3 more MLS teams, draw 20,000 to Ryerson, York, and U of T home games in basketball and hockey; 50,000 for the same schools in football; then create a culture where high school games draw 1000 or more and I'll begin to change my mind.

This weekend is a prime example. I wonder how many Torontonians are going to the Vanier Cup or any sporting event this weekend. I bet it's less than 2% of the population for all sports combined. That's not a sports town. Hamilton gets over 3% of its metro population out to pro football. That's not even including the hundreds of other sports teams in Hamilton.

If Toronto was a sports town, I wouldn't have to go on sports vacations all the time.
Sounds like you'd enjoy a vacation to Miami. :-P
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 06:16 AM   #87
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. How about those Argonauts?
Are you crazy? Who watches football!?!?!?
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 04:21 PM   #88
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Not Toronto. Be back tomorrow. I've got a football game to go watch in Hamilton.

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Sounds like you'd enjoy a vacation to Miami. :-P
I probably would. Want to send me a ticket?
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 04:37 PM   #89
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^ Ugh, I envy you so much! (vanier cup)
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 04:38 PM   #90
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You're welcome to come with. We can hit The Embassy after.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 06:33 PM   #91
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Tell you what. I'll go sit in the Embassy and enjoy a few frosties whilst you two go freeze your t*** off watching grown men kick a pigskin far away and then apparently rapidly change their minds and run after it to retrieve it. In the process all of the grown men wind up frequently flinging the entire weight of their large bodies onto other men.
You can join me when all the kicking/fetching and bone crushing is finished and I will treat you to a bevvie!
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 03:44 AM   #92
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That was a very nice offer, but I had left already. It was super cold despite my considerable layering. Football people are a strange breed. I'll admit that. I had zero affiliation with either of those schools, it started to snow in the 4th quarter, and I couldn't feel my toes any more, but would do it all over again tomorrow.

Lots of gorgeous boys everywhere. Still not biting? I know you'll never be a convert, but that's ok.
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 06:37 AM   #93
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As appealing as it might sound, I prefer the option of watching it on a tv whilst propping up a bar somewhere!
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 07:26 PM   #94
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Not Toronto. Be back tomorrow. I've got a football game to go watch in Hamilton.



I probably would. Want to send me a ticket?
Well, I was referring to your description of Toronto's status as a sports town--you pretty much described Miami to a "T."
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 08:21 PM   #95
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Well, with winter just around the corner, I agree with isaidso.. a ticket to Miami is sounding pretty interesting right about now!
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 08:36 PM   #96
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Honestly, I don't get the sense Hockey or even the leafs for that matter are very popular in inner-city Toronto. I flicked on the Toronto-Chicago game and it seemed 95% of the fans were caucasians.. look how multicutural metro Toronto is, just turn on a Raptors or TFC game.
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Old November 23rd, 2008, 10:15 PM   #97
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I really don't think you get what 'sports town' means at all. In Toronto we have lots of sporting choices, but sports is not a big part of the culture here like it is in real sports towns.
Well, I don't think you can nail down just one definition of the term. Who says diversity is trumped by the domination of one sport?

Sports in Toronto, is like everything else about Toronto...highly diversified. People only tend to be interested in the sports they like, so judge it by that, rather than other perspectives.

Toronto's the kind of town where people mob the streets to support a non-Toronto based team...and that's a bit unusual. It shows a love of sport beyond home-town raw-raw.

Beyond being able to support such diversified ML sports teams like hockey, baseball, football, basketball, soccer, lacrosse (which few cities can), Toronto supports a huge range of sports...and sports doesn't have to mean supporting a local team at all.

Are we a hockey town? sure...but you could even call us more of a horse town...Woodbine outdraws the Leafs by a pretty big factor, as well as being an older institution, and holds a more important place in horse racing world than the Leafs do in the hockey world. It isn't a "team" sport, so we just don't realize it.

We have few peers in Golf or curling...we are also a major sailing town...pro-tennis...pro auto-racing...120,000 show up to watch teams from around the world compete in our annual Dragon Boat race...Wakestock is the World Series in the prof wakeboarding world. I am amazed every time I pass one of those old-school lawn bowling fields (of which the city is dotted with), at just how popular that sport is. The list is quite long and diversified.

Toronto doesn't seem like a sports town to the sports-minded individual, because we aren't a card-carrying one-sport myopic town.



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Old November 24th, 2008, 06:58 AM   #98
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Well, with winter just around the corner, I agree with isaidso.. a ticket to Miami is sounding pretty interesting right about now!
Well, if you're interested...just about everywhere I look I'm seeing ~$300 roundtrip after fees.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&f...earch&aq=f&oq=

¡Pero aviso, si visita Miami, debe aprender español! :p
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Old November 24th, 2008, 07:14 AM   #99
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Don't tempt me...
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Old November 24th, 2008, 03:06 PM   #100
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Can we go back to Rogers Centre?
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