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Old January 25th, 2020, 12:06 AM   #15521
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Originally Posted by CementC View Post
I thought it was loosely defined when excavation is more or less well underway or completed
It usually when foundations have started as that is part of the tower. Excavation isn't.
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Old January 25th, 2020, 12:17 PM   #15522
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Then they need to move it to the under construction category. 2 more 200m + towers to add to Melbourne’s list.
Yep, also one of the reasons why there's so much ambiguity over the number of skyscrapers u/c in sydney. I personally think there's a lot more than what CTBUH seems to have recorded as u/c
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Old January 25th, 2020, 06:12 PM   #15523
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Yep, also one of the reasons why there's so much ambiguity over the number of skyscrapers u/c in sydney. I personally think there's a lot more than what CTBUH seems to have recorded as u/c
YOU DON'T THINK THAT SSC's very own Cul will keep them up to date on skyscrapers from Sidders?
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Old January 25th, 2020, 09:36 PM   #15524
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I was going to say if you look at all the sources people use (CTBUH, Emporis, even WIKIPEDIA some have suggested) they are all about the same. I’d say they are fairly accurate. Some timing and slight height variances nothing major.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 01:31 AM   #15525
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YOU DON'T THINK THAT SSC's very own Cul will keep them up to date on skyscrapers from Sidders?
Nope, CTBUH is a bureaucratic nightmare. Some of our largest projects (the two sydney harbour towers at barangaroo and one circular quay) are still only listed as proposed even though they're clearly well underway. North Sydney's new tallest u/c is still only listed as proposed. That and the fact that they still refuse to include parramatta in the list. I can't speak for other cities but i've completely disregarded CTBUH as a reliable source

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Old January 26th, 2020, 01:34 AM   #15526
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CTBUH are persona non grata on SSC Australia now that they have sacked Culwulla simply for asking some questions.

An irrelevant organisation if there ever was one. We should all support Cul with his proposed new database.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 02:29 AM   #15527
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YOU DON'T THINK THAT SSC's very own Cul will keep them up to date on skyscrapers from Sidders?
nah not even sydney, i told them i was very frustrated at them for taking weeks even months to aaprove my new buildingvor amendment. a good friend of mine from chicago who i’ve know for 30 years help create thousands of entries all over world and he recently quit too, had enough of guys 30 years younger telling him what to do and wanted change or new ways so he walked. these guys have no idea about skyscraper stats heights ect , the guy has spent many thousands of hours like myself compiling info before internet was around. so anyway i told them the skyscrapercenter was an accurate source but not anymore. better of with wiki
emporis hasn’t been updated in years , i’ve also asked them if i could jump back on board but my assistance and data entries has to be instant and no approval process like it was years ago
see what happens
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Old January 26th, 2020, 03:15 AM   #15528
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Proposals & Construction: 250m-299m skyscrapers

So what are the actual tallies then? Are they really out by that much?

One thing for sure, despite CTBUH or any other database’s shortcomings, Melbourne will have at least 30 buildings > 200m and at least 75 buildings > 150m either completed or under construction at the end of 2020. And sounds like at least 2 more supertalls in the works as well. Whenever I include Sydney’s I always add in Para as it’s the only “suburb” recorded separately.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 06:09 AM   #15529
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^yeh sometimes a few metres out. some proposals are missing. lots. also status, some arent shown as UC. and its all about accuracy in my game.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 06:35 AM   #15530
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Proposals & Construction: 250m-299m skyscrapers

Right now CTBUH has 40 buildings listed as either completed, UC or proposed for Melbourne > 200m. My analysis indicates at least 32 of those will be completed or under construction by the end of 2020.
Sydney shows 20 buildings > 200m as completed, UC or proposed. Parramatta has 4.

Drop the criteria to > 150m and Melbourne shoots up to 103.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 06:57 AM   #15531
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I count Sydney as having 30 ish 200m+ buildings proposed, UC or completed (parramatta included)
And 104 ish 150m+ buildings proposed, UC or completed (parra included)

Just goes to show how off CTBUH is.

Should melbourne's figure be higher or is CTBUH still pretty spot on in your department?
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Old January 26th, 2020, 06:57 AM   #15532
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Originally Posted by CULWULLA View Post
^yeh sometimes a few metres out. some proposals are missing. lots. also status, some arent shown as UC. and its all about accuracy in my game.
An Australian only database is what's needed.
I am up for it.

The only thing good about the CTBUH are the listed measuring rules, since without rules we would be arguing about carpark entrances vs pedestrian entrances till the cows come home.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 01:45 PM   #15533
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An Australian only database is what's needed.
I am up for it.

The only thing good about the CTBUH are the listed measuring rules, since without rules we would be arguing about carpark entrances vs pedestrian entrances till the cows come home.
Well, your name is DB2. Create a DB2 database.
Get it?...No?..Nevermind. No IT guys on the forum?
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Old January 26th, 2020, 04:57 PM   #15534
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Well, your name is DB2. Create a DB2 database.
Get it?...No?..Nevermind. No IT guys on the forum?
they generally keep their cards close to their chest...not flakes or boasters seeking attention...worried that they will get mobbed at parties...
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Old January 27th, 2020, 10:21 AM   #15535
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Originally Posted by CementC View Post
I count Sydney as having 30 ish 200m+ buildings proposed, UC or completed (parramatta included)
And 104 ish 150m+ buildings proposed, UC or completed (parra included)

Just goes to show how off CTBUH is.

Should Melbourne figure be higher or is CTBUH still pretty spot on in your department?
Who cares about proposals???

A building can be proposed with absolutely zero chance of getting up. Look at Dubai, Mumbai, countless cities in Russia etc.

The only stats worth worrying about are UC and competed.

And this might be unpopular but it's worth thinking about.

CTBUH just celebrated its 50 years of its founding... so as a governing body on tall buildings, for all its flaws, it must be doing something right.

Out of curiosity, is the CTBUH drama a case of red tape and bureaucracy or jsut a few bruised egos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CULWULLA View Post
nah not even sydney, i told them i was very frustrated at them for taking weeks even months to aaprove my new buildingvor amendment. a good friend of mine from chicago who i’ve know for 30 years help create thousands of entries all over world and he recently quit too, had enough of guys 30 years younger telling him what to do and wanted change or new ways so he walked. these guys have no idea about skyscraper stats heights ect , the guy has spent many thousands of hours like myself compiling info before internet was around. so anyway i told them the skyscrapercenter was an accurate source but not anymore. better of with wiki
emporis hasn’t been updated in years , i’ve also asked them if i could jump back on board but my assistance and data entries has to be instant and no approval process like it was years ago
see what happens
Sorry to throw shade at your friend but that's just life these days... there are plenty of jobs where you superior might be younger than you and just walking away because they want to do things differently is not a defence.

Imagine if all architects walked away form the professions because some young graduate pitched using CAD... it's just the way the world works sometimes and makes me think it's the pride/egos of the contributors rather than the organisation as a whole that might be the issue.

and based on our SSC dealings, Cul is a great contributor, BUT, I just can't help imagine (based on what we have all seen here over the years) that perhaps the way things were dealt with was the reason for him being asked to depart the database???

It may not be the case (i wasn't there) but we have seen the abuse, name-calling, blaming his kids for "hacking his computer" hell even less than a month ago a tirade of rants about splitting cities up into districts rather than whole entities...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here to look at both sides.

As someone who uses the database daily for work, it's in everyone's interest to keep a global database rather than going rogue and creating a national one.

Just quickly looking at different databases for Syd.

CTBUH - 7UC in Syd - 6UC Parra (13)
Wiki - 20 Total
SkyscraperPage - 24 total

The ambiguity across the different databases is ridiculous, we need fewer reliable sources, not more.

nobody wins by going rogue and creating ANOTHER database, with its own rules, etc Cul, you should be trying to come to a resolution to make the current system better. Find out why it's taking so long, what info can you provide to speed up the process etc?

Could you submit a photo of the groundwork to prove a building is UC when you submit your data to change its status quickly?

Could there not be a section of the database managed by the likes of Cul etc who keeps it up to date regionally under the same CTBUH umbrella???

I just think it a waste to make an already complex and everchanging system more complex.

With Cul gone will the entire Australia section of CTBUH suffer? Who really wins here if tantrums are thrown and waving hands in the in the air and saying "fine I'm done" is the answer???
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Old January 27th, 2020, 10:49 AM   #15536
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^ tough call huh? I've been relying on CTBUH and (what I consider) fairly reliable info on what's about to start construction. I too realise the "proposed" category needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Fairly confident that there are quite a few in the proposed category for Melbourne > 200m will be going ahead this year.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 11:39 AM   #15537
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Originally Posted by tower_dan View Post
Who cares about proposals???

A building can be proposed with absolutely zero chance of getting up. Look at Dubai, Mumbai, countless cities in Russia etc.

The only stats worth worrying about are UC and competed.

And this might be unpopular but it's worth thinking about.

CTBUH just celebrated its 50 years of its founding... so as a governing body on tall buildings, for all its flaws, it must be doing something right.

Out of curiosity, is the CTBUH drama a case of red tape and bureaucracy or jsut a few bruised egos?



Sorry to throw shade at your friend but that's just life these days... there are plenty of jobs where you superior might be younger than you and just walking away because they want to do things differently is not a defence.

Imagine if all architects walked away form the professions because some young graduate pitched using CAD... it's just the way the world works sometimes and makes me think it's the pride/egos of the contributors rather than the organisation as a whole that might be the issue.

and based on our SSC dealings, Cul is a great contributor, BUT, I just can't help imagine (based on what we have all seen here over the years) that perhaps the way things were dealt with was the reason for him being asked to depart the database???

It may not be the case (i wasn't there) but we have seen the abuse, name-calling, blaming his kids for "hacking his computer" hell even less than a month ago a tirade of rants about splitting cities up into districts rather than whole entities...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here to look at both sides.

As someone who uses the database daily for work, it's in everyone's interest to keep a global database rather than going rogue and creating a national one.

Just quickly looking at different databases for Syd.

CTBUH - 7UC in Syd - 6UC Parra (13)
Wiki - 20 Total
SkyscraperPage - 24 total

The ambiguity across the different databases is ridiculous, we need fewer reliable sources, not more.

nobody wins by going rogue and creating ANOTHER database, with its own rules, etc Cul, you should be trying to come to a resolution to make the current system better. Find out why it's taking so long, what info can you provide to speed up the process etc?

Could you submit a photo of the groundwork to prove a building is UC when you submit your data to change its status quickly?

Could there not be a section of the database managed by the likes of Cul etc who keeps it up to date regionally under the same CTBUH umbrella???

I just think it a waste to make an already complex and everchanging system more complex.

With Cul gone will the entire Australia section of CTBUH suffer? Who really wins here if tantrums are thrown and waving hands in the in the air and saying "fine I'm done" is the answer???
Being in the business for so long, i'm sure cul would know a thing or two about negotiating and trying to rationalise with the corporate side of things. Obviously that hasn't worked, and there's only so much you can do before you have to abandon ship and do things properly yourself. Cul can get a bit loony every now and then but he definitely knows what he's doing. The problem with a global database is that i'm sure there are much bigger and more significant centres in the world that get priority over Australia, hence the lack of accuracy and updating of our lists.

An Australia/NZ only database is really whats needed
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Old January 27th, 2020, 03:58 PM   #15538
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Being in the business for so long, i'm sure cul would know a thing or two about negotiating and trying to rationalise with the corporate side of things. Obviously that hasn't worked, and there's only so much you can do before you have to abandon ship and do things properly yourself. Cul can get a bit loony every now and then but he definitely knows what he's doing. The problem with a global database is that i'm sure there are much bigger and more significant centres in the world that get priority over Australia, hence the lack of accuracy and updating of our lists.

An Australia/NZ only database is really whats needed
Is that knowledge of the situation or assumptions being made because it suits your prefered narrative?

I have no doubt Cul is professional, as is Papps, and Decatur etc but evidence often points to the contrary when it comes to how he reacts to pushback on things that don't align with his ideas.

The comment about his friend and "guys 30 years younger telling him what to do" so he quit to me is a red flag that it is actually an ego/generational thing rather than an overall organisation thing.

It might be a deeply engrained problem at the core of CTBUH, I don't know, I'm just trying to keep an open mind and see things from every angle.

I firmly believe no one wins when you start breaking up a database and each database deciding individual rules and exceptions etc.

If Aus/NZ breaks away then what's to stop Western Europe making their own database? Central America no doubt gets overshadowed by the USA so that's another breakaway database. India is rather behind on data, Why not a subcontinental database for them?

Not only will be harder to compare data but what if one database measures to tip, and other to the highest floor, another uses the lowest point of the site, while another uses height from main entrance etc? You think there are discrepancies now? Wait till you have 7+ regional databases going about it in thier own way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CementC View Post
The problem with a global database is that I'm sure there are much bigger and more significant centres in the world that get priority over Australia, hence the lack of accuracy and updating of our lists.
I also think this is a very short-sighted way to look at it.

Who would have thought that KL would have built the tallest building in 1998? or the title of Worlds tallest move to Taipei 7 years later or that Dubai would emerge as the skyscraper capital of the world in 2002? a cities fortunes can change on a dime. I doubt they preference data based on where it is coming from. Maybe its just a QC team that is overstretched and they want to make sure things are right before updating the system to save them form updating it again a few months down the track?

Just because a region isn't currently active (which Australia very much is and has been since the 60s) doesn't mean a worldwide database would overlook a region or classify it as not important or they favour the likes of the USA and China over other places etc.

Assuming Aus is down the pecking order because things arent updated in real-time is very conspiracy theorist of you.

Australia is a developed first-world economy with a robust construction sector and easily accessible information, we have more skyscrapers per capita than any other continent, We are 6th in the world for the total number of skyscrapers built, Melbourne and Sydney are both Top 50 skylines... these are facts so I can't imagine we are a low priority in the eyes of some dismissive company chief.

Prove me wrong if there is evidence to back it up but I just refuse to believe without proof that this is a one-sided issue that can't be resolved and required the essential dismantling of what is more or less the most comprehensive system we have.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 09:23 PM   #15539
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Given that I hate the UN and all other self serving world bodies with a vengeance, I’m all for Australia to go it alone. In any case I can set up a website, collate a database, and what are they going to do about it? Pass a resolution condemning me? Really!
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Old January 27th, 2020, 10:42 PM   #15540
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tower dan-my gripe is not the database but the time it takes to 'approve" contributions amendments addtions ect ect/.
i want an accurate database, we all do. but some of my 30 or so outstanding entries date back 9months.?
so thats why im not happy.
Also i help create most lists you see today from Australian cities, i compiled them in the 1980s, before internet assistance. took me years.lots of my own money too on phone calls, mail ect.
and continually contributing for 30 years and then being told by a 20something that has no idea about the history of building a list of tall buildings is frustrating and telling me -no your wrong, im right.
these young guys with big ideas at ctbuh dont have the passion i have along with some other forum members . that takes years to have.
thats why im pissed.anyway im not going to talk about it anymore.
i have some ideas along with another forum member.
watch out for it.
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