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Old July 11th, 2009, 11:01 AM   #161
metroman
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Yeah Svarty I notised a bit of anti-Kiwi sentiment there too.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 11:18 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Shows how out of date your knowledge of New Zealand is if you're assuming there are 3.5 million people living here.

Nice and peaceful first post for your welcome to the forum by the way.

PS: I would hardly call NZ socialist by any stretch of the imagination. Again, shows how much you know about the country considering you have such strong views on how we should conduct ourselves on the world stage.
My apologies for any sense of offence caused. good to get a reaction though - probably exactly what is needed in NZ...
Anyway , NZ population is? ; 4,318,425(http://www.stats.govt.nz/people/population/default.htm)
So I was about 800K wide of the mark , makes no real difference.

I actually said that I thought that NZ had been held back by "socialist peacenik dogma". I never said that NZ was a socialist country. Read a little more slowly without getting too defensive.(If you pardon the pun).
I am not critical of the general NZ population as such. But I am very critical of previous NZ governments.
Please feel free to respond to the 'guts' of my post. I still maintain that if NZ is to be taken seriously or given priority from a military perspective that much more needs to done. Send the right signals - actions speak louder than words.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 11:38 AM   #163
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I believe Denmark has banned nuclear armed warships from it's harbours too for the last 50 years (long before NZ introduced the ban).
Quote:
the rest of the developed world thinks of this policy as an absolute joke..
oh? I know Australia and the US think so. And who else?
Ierland hasn't had a strike wing in it's air force ever as far as I know.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #164
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Okay, to address some of the points in your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Finnster View Post
You can't continue to spend so little on an interoperable defence capability with Australia and just assume that if a military emergency occurs , no matter how unlikely , that we will simply come running to help.
New Zealand currently spends 1% of their GDP on their military. This is in line with military expenditure by Austria, Luxembourg, Japan, Canada and Switzerland. The fact that Australia spends approximately 2.4% of their GDP on their military is unusual - it puts them above most of the European Union (bar France and the UK) in terms of defence expenditure and is therefore an anomaly rather than the norm. Most developed countries worldwide spend less money on defence than this - even China spends less than Australia!

I do agree that procurement of vessels for the protection of NZ waters should definitely be considered of importance to the Royal NZ Navy, however, currently with the economic situation as it is, this is simply not feasible as I'm sure you're aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Finnster View Post
The idea that nuclear armed/powered American warships are not welcome in NZ is so backward , the rest of the developed world thinks of this policy as an absolute joke..
The anti-nuclear stance in NZ is a little paranoid, but understandable given the nuclear weapons tests in the region that have harmed Kiwi servicemen. I don't think it's backwards though, I simply view it as a different way of doing things. Not everyone wants to become the USA's lackey to the extent of Australia in terms of military co-operation and thus we are perfectly entitled to say who can and can't enter our waters.

Finally; as for the possibility of instability in the area - who is seriously going to threaten us? No one has actually been able to answer this question.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #165
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I think he was referring to pirates or other nations attacking our shipping for some reason. Like Fijian privateer fishing boats armed with crayfish pots or something. That's all I can possibly think of.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #166
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From The US Department of State.

Quote:
New Zealand's top six trading partners (total trade) ending statistical year October 2008 included Australia, the United States, the People's Republic of China, Japan, Singapore, and Germany. Australia continued as New Zealand's principal export market, worth $7.2 billion with exports to Australia rising by 30%. The United States and Japan were New Zealand's second- and third-largest export markets, receiving $2.9 billion and $2.5 billion worth of goods, respectively. New Zealand's fourth-largest export destination was China with exports worth $1.7 billion in statistical year ending October 2008.

The U.S. is the second-largest trading partner for New Zealand, with U.S. goods and services accounting for approximately 9% of all imports. The New Zealand dollar reached a 24-year high of over U.S. $0.80 in July 2007 (the highest since the New Zealand dollar was floated), but as of December 2008 the Kiwi dollar was trading at U.S. $0.55. New Zealand's total imports from the U.S., as of October 2008, amounted to U.S. $3.2 billion. The market-led economy offers many benefits for U.S. exporters and investors. Investment opportunities exist in chemicals, food preparation, finance, tourism, and forest products, as well as in franchising. The best sales and investment prospects are for whole aircraft and aircraft parts, medical or veterinary instruments, motor vehicles, information technology, hotel and restaurant equipment, telecommunications, tourism, franchising, food processing and packaging, and medical equipment. On the agricultural side, the best prospects are for fresh fruit, snack foods, and soybean meal.
Problem for any interfering powers.
How are they going to project force into the Tasman Sea?
Look at a map of the world, that really big blue bit between NZ and the US is called the PACIFIC OCEAN. It has lots of open nothingness between NZ and the US in which to interfere with container shipping. The Axis in WWII couldn't do much to block it, so I'm wandering who could now.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 01:20 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane007 View Post
From The US Department of State.



Problem for any interfering powers.
How are they going to project force into the Tasman Sea?
Look at a map of the world, that really big blue bit between NZ and the US is called the PACIFIC OCEAN. It has lots of open nothingness between NZ and the US in which to interfere with container shipping. The Axis in WWII couldn't do much to block it, so I'm wandering who could now.
Tasman Sea!!!!???? Pacific Ocean!!!!????
I'm talking about far more important shipping lanes;
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_d...793&con_type=1
You need to understand the importance of global shipping lanes far from the shores of NZ. The impact of a naval blackade or other military intervention in an area like the Malacca Straits - or the Strait of Singapore on NZ is gigantic.
You can make jokes about pirates if you like , but you need to see the importance of things that go on far beyond your horizons.
So my point is still the same. NZ needs to punch well above it's weight and make more of a contribution. Most of the posts coming from the Kiwis in here tend to demonstrate a sense of relying on distance and/or the USA & Australia to take care of your military defense. Thinking about your military commitments in terms of a highly unlikely invasion of NZ is looking at the issue from the wrong point of view.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 04:37 AM   #168
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Problem is, I'm not a Kiwi yet I agree with them. That sort of invalidates your last statement.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 06:43 AM   #169
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Quote:
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Problem is, I'm not a Kiwi yet I agree with them. That sort of invalidates your last statement.
Yeah, well said Svarty, we aren't Kiwi either and we also agree with the Kiwi's - that is one of the many reasons we are here - the most peaceful nation on earth.

Yes, things can change in the future but nobody knows what is in store for us or the rest of the world .... as for living in the now, keep things the way that they are ... thumbs up for New Zealand
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Old July 12th, 2009, 11:32 AM   #170
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A blockade in the Malacca Straits or Strait of Singapore would have a gigantic effect on everyone trading through that route. Depending on who's doing the blockade, the rest of the countries in the region would all have to respond. Nobody would be waiting for NZ to send in the cavalry. NZ could send a frigate or 2 as support in such an event.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 01:34 PM   #171
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I have a feeling New Zealand is likely to have more money spent on defence in the future, not sure what time frame it could be a wait and see approach by the government. A stronger military has many benefits aside from meeting a war situation head on. It is also a great way of providing career direction and training in highly skilled occupations for school leavers. The military also provide many vital peacetime functions. It possibly would give New Zealand greater bargaining power when dealing with our trading partners and more respect in the region. The role of border protection is also very crucial.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 03:25 PM   #172
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Even if NZ tripled it's defence budget, it would still be a pip-squeak armed forces relatively.
How would that give NZ greater bargaining power with trade partners? Buy our stuff or we'll shoot?
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Old July 12th, 2009, 03:32 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIWIKAAS View Post
Even if NZ tripled it's defence budget, it would still be a pip-squeak armed forces relatively.
How would that give NZ greater bargaining power with trade partners? Buy our stuff or we'll shoot?
Better than threatening them with the expatriation of Winston Peters to their country like we currently do I guess...
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Old July 12th, 2009, 04:07 PM   #174
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Seriously does anyone honestly think that if NZ was invaded Aus would sit back and do nothing ???..I think not so why would NZ need to increase it's defence budget when doing so wouldn't make much difference anyway since it's GNP is very limited compared to larger economies in the region. Lets face it, NZ is a small country with a small economy and small defence capability. Working with Aus and or other larger 'players' in the region with similar interests within an alliance capacity is probably NZ's only option.

Last edited by MelboyPete; July 12th, 2009 at 04:14 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2009, 05:06 PM   #175
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Winston Peters amongst others maybe vying for mayor of the Super Council. Ralph Norris has reportedly declined it. The military provides a strong institution for a country and while I am not talking military junta it's role in getting youth off the streets and into training is useful. Living in Australia you can see how over the last few years the military has given many people a gap year after leaving school it has also acted as a strong fabric of society. I think it is a valuable institution. What New Zealand has done by running it done is a shame. There is the possibility of volitility in the Asian region and it is possible that things maybe not as stable as they are in years to come.
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Old July 13th, 2009, 08:02 AM   #176
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Defence is bloody expensive these days. It's all IT.

It's not a few thousand school leavers marching around a parade ground because there's a recession on - and there's nothing else to do.

Buying, mainitaining, training, constantly upgrading modern fighter jets etc is lightyears away from having a fleet of Iriquios & Skyhawks back in the 'mechanical' Age.

Personally, I'm all for spending as little as possible, and am comfortable with what level we have. It also has the conveniant side effect of actually keeping us out of stupid wars on the other side of the world.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #177
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Just going to play the devil's advocate here, I'm not actually for any sort of unification, though at least we'll get some pretty mountains and you'll get some pretty beaches. But if there ever was a unification, the unified countries could just be called "Australia and New Zealand", just like other (and former) confederations like Serbia and Montenegro or Bosnia and Herzegovina. Just saying..
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Old July 20th, 2009, 02:36 AM   #178
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Yes, probably my biggest problem with NZ becoming a state of Australia, is that I would have to say I am from Australia when people ask which country am I from.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 08:48 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunter View Post
Just going to play the devil's advocate here, I'm not actually for any sort of unification, though at least we'll get some pretty mountains and you'll get some pretty beaches. But if there ever was a unification, the unified countries could just be called "Australia and New Zealand", just like other (and former) confederations like Serbia and Montenegro or Bosnia and Herzegovina. Just saying..


Dude, NZ got plenty decent beaches already. But you knew that anyway. Apart form the ones on the main islands themselves theres also Aitutaki, Tokelau

That whole Serb/Montenegro Bosnia/Hercegovina thing wont work here. Bad analogy btw, especially in a military thread. Are you proposing a combined military for NZ/Aus?
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Old July 20th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #180
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mmmm... I stayed on Aitutaki 12 years ago. For me it's the ultimate tropical paradise.
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