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Old December 11th, 2019, 04:17 PM   #161
tameracingdriver
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Some interesting points of view. Personally, if the wheel was just going to be a giant advertising board then I would also be against it. Comparing it with advert boards by the side of a motorway isn't really like with like (Newcastle already has this anyway), this thing would be visible for miles, and would look massively tacky in my opinion. Imagine the London Eye with a massive advert on the front!?

On the contrary to many posters, I do feel though that stating that people would only be able to see is Felling or Walker is a little harsh. If it was full size, you would easily see the city centre and I believe the view would be spectacular I really do.

That said, I am no expert and I still don't see how this is economically viable @ £100m. Could be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Whether its harsh or not, I don't see too many people heading down to Spillers to go on a ferris wheel, and as for the other attractions, there is plenty going on in town without having to walk half an hour or get a taxi.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 04:19 PM   #162
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There is massive tourism potential.
...
The creativity and flair form a speculative, individual one off type landmark.
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I think we should embrace such projects and encourage them to form a modern Newcastle, whilst also deviate along a unique pathway.
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What can people say to their kids about going to Newcastle, why are we going there, what have they got there, what can we do there!
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Positive minds for positive places, negative minds create negative places. There are two sides to a road.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 04:43 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tameracingdriver View Post
Some interesting points of view. Personally, if the wheel was just going to be a giant advertising board then I would also be against it. Comparing it with advert boards by the side of a motorway isn't really like with like (Newcastle already has this anyway), this thing would be visible for miles, and would look massively tacky in my opinion. Imagine the London Eye with a massive advert on the front!?

On the contrary to many posters, I do feel though that stating that people would only be able to see is Felling or Walker is a little harsh. If it was full size, you would easily see the city centre and I believe the view would be spectacular I really do.

That said, I am no expert and I still don't see how this is economically viable @ £100m. Could be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Whether its harsh or not, I don't see too many people heading down to Spillers to go on a ferris wheel, and as for the other attractions, there is plenty going on in town without having to walk half an hour or get a taxi.
I was being slightly flippant about the view, but objectively this isn't the view from the London eye, it's former industrial land at the edge of town.

I think the extra dimension to this is how much of a magnet the wheel would be pulling from outside of the region... how many people from [say] Leeds will say 'gee we must drive to Newcastle to see that wheel'. It may well increase lengths of stays and spends slightly but this is not disneyland. You also have to factor in repeat visits - where an indoor snow centre [also not viable in Newcastle] would attract repeat visits, this is even less likely to have someone from [say] Leeds visit it twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prostu2 View Post
There is massive tourism potential.
...
The creativity and flair form a speculative, individual one off type landmark.
...
I think we should embrace such projects and encourage them to form a modern Newcastle, whilst also deviate along a unique pathway.
...
What can people say to their kids about going to Newcastle, why are we going there, what have they got there, what can we do there!
...
Positive minds for positive places, negative minds create negative places. There are two sides to a road.
Stu, there's some tourist potential, but it's not massive and it's not enough to make a £100mil development like this fly. It's a fantasy project designed to facilitate construction of the areas that will make money and be gently dropped once the money stuff is in place.

By all means be positive but look at the numbers. Part of what I do is consult on big leisure developments [of a very very specific type]. They have a lot in common with this; big, expensive and would actually make most of their money from secondary spend.

More than once in this region [and others] I have had to explain to a developer that their plans are unrealistic - there aren't enough customers, their estimates of build cost are wonky, their projections are flawed because.. and so on. Now some are genuinely shocked, others make the right noises but then confess they just need something positive to get thru planning etc and the big shiny thing is really 'cough' an aspiration.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 07:35 PM   #164
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I am less concerned about inner politics, rather more focused towards the end product.
...
I recently made research regarding a potential observation tower project, in this research, I stated for places such as Blackpool, Brighton, Portsmouth, Glasgow with statistics like annual tourist visiting the city, figures of tower users, costs, projections etc. A big wheel would be similar, after a few years figures go slightly lower for attendees, unless like the Space Needle in Seattle, where the 42nd millionth visitor went up the Needle in about the year 2007 (about that time), some are very successful, other , depending on the overall attraction, might not flourish, Glasgows is like this, cheap at 9 million build cost.
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The scale of Disney World is the ultimate delivery, but I think Newcastle needs and would be rewarded if maybe several high profile attractions are in place. Anything is better than non.
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Newcastle remains partially primitive in terms of acceptance towards tomorrows potential developments, however, I do think the accumulative factor of what we now see as more constant, project applications, setting in, then peoples attitudes towards them slowly gains acceptance.
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Everywhere in Newcastle & Gateshead, projects are being built with increased scale, I do not think any one particular project will look out of place, if current distribution of projects continues in more than one specific area.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 02:43 AM   #165
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Notice the main image on Keith Davidsons website has now changed, previously it was the Askew Road development in Gateshead, which would have been their biggest project to date. Strangely, since NCC are going against the big screen for WWC.....
Guess the gearing is screwed up and developers maybe slowing commitments down, come on NCC, you said the WWC would even blame you, well put things right then.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 03:15 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prostu2 View Post
I am less concerned about inner politics, rather more focused towards the end product.
...
I recently made research regarding a potential observation tower project, in this research, I stated for places such as Blackpool, Brighton, Portsmouth, Glasgow with statistics like annual tourist visiting the city, figures of tower users, costs, projections etc. A big wheel would be similar, after a few years figures go slightly lower for attendees, unless like the Space Needle in Seattle, where the 42nd millionth visitor went up the Needle in about the year 2007 (about that time), some are very successful, other , depending on the overall attraction, might not flourish, Glasgows is like this, cheap at 9 million build cost.
...
The scale of Disney World is the ultimate delivery, but I think Newcastle needs and would be rewarded if maybe several high profile attractions are in place. Anything is better than non.
...
Newcastle remains partially primitive in terms of acceptance towards tomorrows potential developments, however, I do think the accumulative factor of what we now see as more constant, project applications, setting in, then peoples attitudes towards them slowly gains acceptance.
...
Everywhere in Newcastle & Gateshead, projects are being built with increased scale, I do not think any one particular project will look out of place, if current distribution of projects continues in more than one specific area.
That's the point a few people are trying to make here. Build it for £9mil and you have a runner, £100mil...well perhaps not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prostu2 View Post
Notice the main image on Keith Davidsons website has now changed, previously it was the Askew Road development in Gateshead, which would have been their biggest project to date. Strangely, since NCC are going against the big screen for WWC.....
Guess the gearing is screwed up and developers maybe slowing commitments down, come on NCC, you said the WWC would even blame you, well put things right then.
Not sure on the connections here between Askew and the wheel, in any event Askew still is the main image on the projects page.

I'm also not sure [stand to be corrected] that NCC said they would be held responsible if the wheel didn't fly, rather than it being a convenient excuse for the developer to avoid the one bit of the development [see £100mil] that's going to not work.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 02:35 PM   #167
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Sounds like your not aware of certain people on this forum. The WWC project was and still is viable and sustainable as a complete package.
Taking key elements out of the project only has one effect. There is a wider effect, the project is catalyst to other potential projects.
If the project does not evolve, whilst jeopardizing projects around it, then questions need to be raised amongst NCC referring to potential supportive measures, alternative ideas and why actions with preventitive measures should be made which result with closure type decisions.
Maybe the wider picture deserves to be thought of with consideration.
....
I think the Askew Road images were the main home page images, not just on the projects page, this might be my mistake though.
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I only hope the WWC get a lucky break and the city status becomes stronger with
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Old December 15th, 2019, 02:44 PM   #168
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Nothing is built for 9 million nowadays.The Glasgow Tower at 9 million in 2002, resulted in design errors, breakdowns resulting in the tower being closed 2 times for around 4yrs in total or similar.
The Brighton i360 was about 41 million, they are paying loans back currently and in the red, once loans are paid then into black. Other observation towers in the UK & worldwide Expo towers are doing ok as complete packages and sustainable.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 03:24 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prostu2 View Post
Sounds like your not aware of certain people on this forum.
You're going to have to help me with that one, not sure what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prostu2 View Post
The WWC project was and still is viable and sustainable as a complete package.
Taking key elements out of the project only has one effect. There is a wider effect, the project is catalyst to other potential projects.
If the project does not evolve, whilst jeopardizing projects around it, then questions need to be raised amongst NCC referring to potential supportive measures, alternative ideas and why actions with preventitive measures should be made which result with closure type decisions.
Maybe the wider picture deserves to be thought of with consideration.
....
I think the Askew Road images were the main home page images, not just on the projects page, this might be my mistake though.
...
I only hope the WWC get a lucky break and the city status becomes stronger with
Whilst NCC is usually the council that likes to say yes, indeed falls over itself in doing so it does have a duty to at least undertake some scrutiny. Licencing could be replaced by a web page that lets print your own prem' licence. It's to be hoped planning doesn't go the same way.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the viability, there are quite a few posters here who seem sceptical but you never know.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 12:42 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs View Post
You're going to have to help me with that one, not sure what you mean.



Whilst NCC is usually the council that likes to say yes, indeed falls over itself in doing so it does have a duty to at least undertake some scrutiny. Licencing could be replaced by a web page that lets print your own prem' licence. It's to be hoped planning doesn't go the same way.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the viability, there are quite a few posters here who seem sceptical but you never know.

At the end of the day neither of us know the statistics regarding viability and potential revenue. They obviously need plenty on the ground so to speak, not just the wheel turning to make it sustainable.
One factor they already posses is, the statistics from the other wheels they have built.
Mate everything costs crazy money nowadays. I was shocked to see the figure of 848million what Highways Department are paying for the M4, 56km stretch around the Reading area, to be converted into a smart motorway, this involves narrowing of lanes and using the hard shoulder to gain an extra lane, then use a computerised system to orchestrate speed, tickets etc.
...
It is a shocking amount of money, but seeing the layout of the site offices is far to extravagant and over the top, totally unnecessary. The government wants to ban smart motorways but they are starting them in many locations.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 01:35 AM   #171
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At the end of the day neither of us know the statistics regarding viability and potential revenue. They obviously need plenty on the ground so to speak, not just the wheel turning to make it sustainable.
One factor they already posses is, the statistics from the other wheels they have built.
Mate everything costs crazy money nowadays. I was shocked to see the figure of 848million what Highways Department are paying for the M4, 56km stretch around the Reading area, to be converted into a smart motorway, this involves narrowing of lanes and using the hard shoulder to gain an extra lane, then use a computerised system to orchestrate speed, tickets etc.
...
It is a shocking amount of money, but seeing the layout of the site offices is far to extravagant and over the top, totally unnecessary. The government wants to ban smart motorways but they are starting them in many locations.
I get the costs of these huge projects, I do a lot of consultancy work with people who build big leisure and entertainment 'things'. One project I continue to consult on/with cost a bit over $500mil.

As to data from previous developments, yes and no. You really have to look closely at the company behind it [most of this is in the thread but this is the state of play as it were 'engrossed']

So... http://world-wheel-company.com/

So that's the company... sure it is. The website talks about previous commissions:

It's fairly unambiguous - We have designed, built and operated 80 metre and 120 metre Giant Observation Wheels in China and Georgia.

So that's ok, because they've built, designed and operated these wheels... err kinda..., but the company which has the website that tells you that this was their work was actually formed in June 2017 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10843763

So y'might wonder if they did build them.... and ....they didn't.... in fact the address etc is really a Newcastle PR company who seem to be bereft of any wheel building experience.

http://sha-agency.com/

However they are [or perhaps were, see below] working with a Hong Kong Company which did [allegedly, there's not anything I can find trackable to stand this up, only reports of reports] build the Tiblisi and Suzhou wheels.

Now I ve been to Tiblisl [population 1 and a bit mil]. I didn't try the wheel, anyway it's only half the size of the Newcastle one. It would be a lousy proof of concept, as would Suzhou [population circa 10 mil so way bigger market].

It's also questionable what, if any involvement the HK company now has with the Newcastle one as companies house has them as only involved with 'significant control' for 6 months from Autumn 17 to Spring 18.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...ficant-control

For a company with a [past/current?] relationship with a PR company the HK end really needs to get their name out there. One of the main 'trade' websites which lists ' Ferris wheel manufacturers, designers, and operators' is strangely silent. http://www.observationwheeldirectory...manufacturers/

But if I put together
  • a company which in the main seems to be a'hem close to a PR company* apparently claiming to have 'designed, built and operated 80 metre and 120 metre Giant Observation Wheels in China and Georgia' that they don't appear to have done, with involvement from famille Shepherd who are it's fair to say financially astute. I recall one of the Shepherds buying the military vehicle museum with plans to open a motor museum only to find Wylam brewery moving in https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news...bition-1364390
  • It's last financials showing a 30k loss, with virtually no activity other than 30k+ fees to our old friends the PR company and owing the PR co another 43k.. and the only asset being the long leasehold on the site, valued at I assume the purchase price of £132k.
  • With a plan to build a £100mil wheel,

well as I say I'm a bit doubtful of it panning out quite as presented.

Odd that we've not seen any of this in the Chronic...

*bear in mind that PRs are often paid by namechecks, bigger [arguably madder but just plausible = more namechecks]..
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Old December 16th, 2019, 02:11 AM   #172
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There will probably be chains amongst investors, potential interested parties, maybe people just knowing relevant sources etc. Or simply someone in the know of the company or personal within the company, who have build previously.
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It makes me think of an issue what I thought about a short while ago, by simply acting as an agent for developers requiring land acquisition and on the lookout nationally. Just because I am not part of any other company, it does not mean I can not source and present what they are requiring. Many businesses have silent people involved. It does divert away from a straight forward company brand weighing up a project.
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One thing for sure, quite a few grand has been spent on where things stand at currently.
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I had checked the WWC website a while ago and thought the addresses on the contact form were just basically agents in the know, god knows.
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One thing for sure, the Whey Aye is a bigger, all round package compared to the previous built projects.
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I just hope they get a chance of delivering the complete package. It is their gamble and loss if unsuccessful. I would be prepared to give them a chance if it was my call. I am not sure why you may be concerned about the viable /sustainable side of things, your probably evaluating your own judgement though. Let them brighten the place up
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Old December 16th, 2019, 01:50 PM   #173
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Lets wait and see, I know where I'd be placing bets.

<<I am not sure why you may be concerned about the viable /sustainable side of things, your probably evaluating your own judgement though.>>

Happy to PM confidentially but I've been fairly well paid to look at what you might call 'similar'* facilities in the region with a lower build cost [in the 50-70mils] and at least IMHO a higher throughput with better prospects for return visits, primary and secondary spend and 'we' couldn't make them stack up. The reasons they wouldn't fly are the same reasons I doubt this [with other associated reservations].

*Leisure and entertainment with a core attraction of regional>national status
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Old December 17th, 2019, 12:07 AM   #174
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Im working nightshift down Reading, Birmingham area tomorro, afta that on holiday, then i might have bit time to do further research / development on the Hyperian project i have been doing. These type projects need critical revenue generating schemes on the ground & in the air.
One good point you made was the "return" potential of visitors to the WWC project, yes that is a bad aspect of that type of development, observation towers have potential though, but require quite a decent size to incorporate bars, restaurants, etc.This puts the build costs up but returning visitors potential is much better.
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This is at very early stages and would require professional involvement, if it was to go further. Can show u initial stages of a potential package and see what you think.
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Some observation towers have been partly funded when the likes of Expo events are awarded to cities. I think potential investors might see an observation tower as low on the list, unless good schemes are included at base and in air. Location population and amount of tourists are key factors. I am sure you will be aware of many key factors for and against.

Last edited by prostu2; December 17th, 2019 at 12:15 AM.
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