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Old July 1st, 2010, 05:11 AM   #21
Marathaman
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Kenwen needs to study history a little better.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:58 PM   #22
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exactly, people just need to read the history written at the time. it says how vortigern who was the british king wanted to defend english shores from invaders so he hired saxon mercenaries. they then launched a military coup and basically tried to take over the country. there is no evidence whatsoever there was widespread immigration from places like germany. as mythical as vortigern may be, the story of the mercenaries explains why we don't seem to have the genetics we thought we did have. the article suggests that those of us who are "native" britons are at least 58% descended from the ancient britons, the people who built stonehenge.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 09:32 PM   #23
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As an aside, I read somewhere that Brits have the largest foreheads in the world
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 01:52 AM   #24
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Doubt it.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 04:07 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthLimitation View Post
As an aside, I read somewhere that Brits have the largest foreheads in the world
i read somewhere we have the largest penises in the world (the men that is). i can't speak for you but looking down here at mine...
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 04:22 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenwen View Post
Roman empire in Europe and Han Empire in East Asia both were the most advance and most civilised empires at the same time were under barbarian invasions, and both Empire collapsed at the end, so how come East asia got reunited later but Europe were drag into the dark age with wars going on all the time, Im just wondering what European people think about whats stoping Europe to become a unify nation again, and what they think of Roman empire, are you proud of it?
Well, Europe was almost unified by Napoleon and later, by Hitler. However, nobody managed to unify the continent.

I would say that one of the causes of the political fragmentation of Europe compared to China was geagraphic: The heart of China is pretty much a continuous land area that form a convex set. That means that state formation there tends to create unified states.

Some argue that the political decentralization of Europe enabled institutional competition, with is the competition between different types of state organization, with meant that many different types of state were tested and the best types that were tried were copied by other states. As result, Europe became the most advanced civilization in the world by the 18th century.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 04:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
It was. The level of civilization under the Roman Empire was vastly greater than in the next few centuries that followed.
One good measure of civilization is the degree of development of trade. One good measure of trading activity is the number of shipwrecks found.

This is the chart of the number of dated shipwrecks found in the mediterranean, grouped by century:



Yes, the dark ages were real!
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 07:26 AM   #28
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in the north sea though trade increased once the roman empire collapsed - probably something to do with the fact it had a border that excluded a big fat chunk of germany plus scandinavia and built a wall to keep out scotland. interestingly there is more surviving contemporary british historical records from after the romans left than before. when the rest of europe was in the dark ages, the english were actually sending ambassadors to india!

Quote:
On the Reckoning of Time (De temporum ratione) included an introduction to the traditional ancient and medieval view of the cosmos, including an explanation of how the spherical earth influenced the changing length of daylight, of how the seasonal motion of the Sun and Moon influenced the changing appearance of the New Moon at evening twilight, and a quantitative relation between the changes of the Tides at a given place and the daily motion of the moon.[78] Since the focus of his book was calculation, Bede gave instructions for computing the date of Easter and the related time of the Easter Full Moon, for calculating the motion of the Sun and Moon through the zodiac, and for many other calculations related to the calendar. He gives some information about the months of the Anglo-Saxon calendar in chapter XV.[79] Any codex of Bede's Easter cycle is normally found together with a codex of his "De Temporum Ratione".
written in 703. lol.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 12:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicform View Post
in the north sea though trade increased once the roman empire collapsed - probably something to do with the fact it had a border that excluded a big fat chunk of germany plus scandinavia and built a wall to keep out scotland. interestingly there is more surviving contemporary british historical records from after the romans left than before. when the rest of europe was in the dark ages, the english were actually sending ambassadors to india!



written in 703. lol.
the trade in north sea and the atlantic was nothing compared to the industrial-scale trade of the mediterranean sea during the middle age. It will remain fairly small all the way to renaissance, when the oceanic trade routes were opened

Anyway guys, very interesting thread

Europe seen outside the borders of europe seems like a homogeneous continent (it is not, we know very well) and people from the east - with countries built on the classical concept of Empire - look at europe past to see similarities.

As you wrote thought, the Roman Empire - even if it is a very important legacy for Europe - is only one piece of our identity. Christianity is another which was born during, influenced and was influenced by the Roman Empire. BUt other pieces of our identity date clearly from the middle ages, the real time when the West, Europe, and our civilization were born from the ashes of the classical age.

Summarizing: the Chinese (and partly the other civilization of the areas) is a direct evolution of the classical chinese civilization. While Europe (and America, in general the West) are heirs of the Roman Empire, but a fairly distinct civilization which was born during the middle ages
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 08:18 PM   #30
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Thanks Guaporense for your table of shipwrecks over the centuries, very interesting.

I agree though with what Langur fundamentally says, that "The level of civilization under the Roman Empire was vastly greater than in the next few centuries that followed."

However, the decline of the Roman empire appears to have happened from the second century onwards when the empire appears to have became defensive in nature rather than developing. It may also be that there was an economic depression at this time from which the empire never really recovered. It would be interesting to know more about this and also about tertiary educational institutions during this period. I have read previously (correctly or otherwise) that the church destroyed much of classical learning and institutions such as the Academy in Athens, though its monastries etc (and the arab world) served to conserve much of the learning that did survive.

In any event, it would not be till the Renaissance period that the world would catch up to where the Roman world was at its height - though such things as deep ploughing, printing, universities (in Europe), oceanic sailing, etc. made a huge difference and only came about in the medieval period

Last edited by Black Cat; July 3rd, 2010 at 10:38 PM.
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Old July 4th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #31
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The Empire had a horrible III century, with a long period of 50 years called "military anarchy" with basically an emperor every year and sometimes more emperors at the same time.

The empire that emerged from the chaos was a completely different one: it would last 2 more centuries, but in a very different shape.
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Old July 5th, 2010, 02:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
the trade in north sea and the atlantic was nothing compared to the industrial-scale trade of the mediterranean sea during the middle age. It will remain fairly small all the way to renaissance, when the oceanic trade routes were opened
hanseatic league? vikings? pity you're wrong. a single gas consortium found a dozen wrecks in the baltic up to a thousand years old earlier this year. here's a list of some more. the problem is until recently they never bothered looking but the amount of trade plied over the north sea as a result of the collapse of the roman empire was vast -

http://www.abc.se/~pa/uwa/wreckbal.htm
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Old July 5th, 2010, 03:03 AM   #33
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I'm not sure shipwrecks in the Med are a good indicator of the level of civilization at the time. In the Roman period, the Med was a Roman lake, from the 7th Century it was a sea, with an Islamic World on one side and a Christian World on the other. Lines of communication had changed and the modern age of alliances and diplomacy between enemies had begun.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 04:03 AM   #34
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yup... whereas the north sea became the opposite.
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Old July 7th, 2010, 12:51 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Newell View Post
I'm not sure shipwrecks in the Med are a good indicator of the level of civilization at the time. In the Roman period, the Med was a Roman lake, from the 7th Century it was a sea, with an Islamic World on one side and a Christian World on the other. Lines of communication had changed and the modern age of alliances and diplomacy between enemies had begun.
during the arab age there were in europe the seafaring italian republics, Venice had the largest fleet of Europe...much larger than any anseatic league

Venice, Genoa combined...I cannot even imagine.

Even during the middle ages the main arthery of commerce remained the east-west axis, with trade between Egypt and north africa dominated by the italian republics. The anseatic league had surely more importance than during roman times but the size itself and the wealth of medieval Genoa, Pisa, Venice are the witness of the importance of the mediterranean trade during middle ages

Only the discovery of the route bypassing the southern tip of Africa will change that, as the Portuguese were able to ship the goods of the east to the west without passing through Arabs, Egyptians and Venitians

Didn't you wonder why Portugal got so immensely rich in the century of the discoveries?
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Old July 7th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #36
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The Hanseatic League was more than just a seafaring confederation, much of it's trade was carried over land or along rivers. Nor was it a single body with it's own fleet. More like a group of modern day multinational corporations using their power to lobby governments and even intervene in local politics.

Again to me an example of the modernity of the so called dark ages.
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Old July 8th, 2010, 11:13 PM   #37
Eddard Stark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Newell View Post
The Hanseatic League was more than just a seafaring confederation, much of it's trade was carried over land or along rivers. Nor was it a single body with it's own fleet. More like a group of modern day multinational corporations using their power to lobby governments and even intervene in local politics.

Again to me an example of the modernity of the so called dark ages.
the dark ages were anything but dark, they are the birthplace of modernity and the western civilization

But the centuries right after the fall of the roman empire were REALLY dark for all europe, not only the one formerly under the empire. All europe become a forest with no interruptions, trade collapsed, the largest cities (in Italy) had 20-30K inhabitants while during the empire that was the size of a very small city. European population fell from 100-something million to a fraction of that (probably less than 20 million)

This is the real dark age: from the 5th to the 10th century. The period between the 10th and the 13th century was one of the greatest boom period of Europe. The 14th century thought was a new century of big crisis, which lead to the collapse of the medieval growth scheme and the medieval society eventually leading to the new growth period of the 15th-16th century
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:04 PM   #38
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Is this really a forum issue?
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #39
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Well, it's an issue. And, without the Roman Empire, we wouldn't have the word "forum". Therefore it all makes perfect sense.
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Old July 17th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaporense View Post
One good measure of civilization is the degree of development of trade. One good measure of trading activity is the number of shipwrecks found.

This is the chart of the number of dated shipwrecks found in the mediterranean, grouped by century:



Yes, the dark ages were real!
Are You kidding me? This rather says that people in "middle-ages" (i hate this name) were better shipbuilders and sailors then Romans. HRomans hated traveling with ships, they were afraid of monsters and they were poor sailors. No plus ultra. Because of fear they didn't go to Atlantic ocean. All the superstitions Europe inherited from them and many other negative stuff (like hate to human body). Are we less advanced then Romans because nowadays ships sink so seldom?
You only think about technological stuff and measure civilization by it's trade and technology. It's unaccaptable. People in different times have different values and seek meaning in different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brown_(historian)
http://www.amazon.com/Discarded-Imag...313633&sr=8-23
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