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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old November 4th, 2019, 04:12 PM   #7741
snot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
I would still say that NCT has a point.

Regarding the Perpignan - Barcelona line, it is kind of a special case, since in Spain the gauge is broader and using the recently built standard gauge lines is the only way to get freight in Spain without complications.

Regarding the Montpellier line... which leads to Perpignan... Wikipedia says it is the first example of mixed-use HS line, which is kind of wrong since well before this project the entire Italian HS network was designed and built to allow freight traffic - that affects slopes, track banking angles and other parameters. But apart from this, it's actually a 60 km bypass, which I would say is not representative of what HS generally is.

The reasons why Italian HS was built for freight but never used as such are essentially two: wear and capacity. The bigger is the speed difference between the fastest and the slowest train on a line, the smaller the total number of trains must be.

If you want to sistematically mix HS traffic and freight traffic, you must forget very high speeds (like in Switzerland), or limit the number of HS services, or both. And that kind of kills the ROI - that's why you can do it on a bypass but not on an entire network.
Not like using the line at night for freight when passenger trains do not operate? I would think it absurd to mix freight and highspeed trains over the day.
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Old November 4th, 2019, 05:18 PM   #7742
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Not like using the line at night for freight when passenger trains do not operate? I would think it absurd to mix freight and highspeed trains over the day.
'True' high speed rail trains run on purpose-built track, used only for that service. Enhanced speed existing conventional lines can have local freight customers.

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Old November 4th, 2019, 06:28 PM   #7743
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High speed lines are closed for maintenance during the night, at least in Italy. I'm not saying that heavy maintenance is actually carried on every night, but the time window is reserved for inspections and tests.

At the moment in Italy there is only one freight train running on HS lines; it is a passenger HS trainset whose coaches have been converted. It will run at 250 km/h and has a nominal freight capacity equivalent to "two 747 cargo planes". See https://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7940 (Italian only, sorry; google for "Mercitalia Fast").
If I remember correctly, years ago there were in France some TGV dedicated to mail transport.

As you see, in both cases it's a dedicated trainset. It is a shared opinion that regular freight trains would create too much wear on HS tracks, increasing maintenance costs.
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Old November 4th, 2019, 09:51 PM   #7744
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Lines for mixed traffic

The Barcelona-Perpignan line is partially mixed: 132 km in Spain from Mollet. From the port of Barcelona to Mollet, freight trains run on conventional mixed gauge lines (with third rail). There is also another mixed gauge section from Girona to Figueres-Vilafant, but it is no longer used for freight trains.

The Renfe S-103 and SNCF Euroduplex 2N2 3UH trains run at 200 km/h all along the route for the possibility of crossings with freight trains (the line is designed for 300 although the average speed is quite low because it is a very mountainous area), and this despite the fact that only carry containers (at least the ones I know). The distance between the track axles is 4.7 metres.
They made train crossing tests in 2013 in the section Llinars AV-Viloby d'Onyar (between Mollet and Girona), but nothing changed.

Apart from the danger of the displacement of the load, there are big differences between the lines for freight and for HST: obviously the speed, mixing trains at 300 and 100 kmh is a bad idea for the latter, you have to make stations with 750 meter tracks, the maintenance has to be much greater, and the technical requirements are completely different: the cant of the curves, the climb of ascent (in HST the percentage can be very high)...
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Old November 4th, 2019, 10:13 PM   #7745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
the climb of ascent (in HST the percentage can be very high)...
Just as reference:
- Italian HS has a maximum climb rate of 18/1000, due to freight being considered in the design;
- Modern Italian non-HS lines have a maximum climb rate of 25/1000;
- AFAIR, German HS has a maximum climb rate of 35/1000, French HS of 40/1000;
- The historical mountain line between Italy and France has a maximum climb rate of 30/1000, the one between South and North Switzerland 26/1000, both being replaced by base tunnels.

18/1000 means that any ultra-heavy train is able to stop and restart without issues, but this design came with A LOT of tunnels, viaducts and a lot of "earth works", and consequently the costs were higher than EU average.
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Old November 5th, 2019, 12:57 AM   #7746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
'True' high speed rail trains run on purpose-built track, used only for that service. Enhanced speed existing conventional lines can have local freight customers.

Mike
Hs1 in the UK runs freight at night, and 186mph high speed trains in the day. Admittedly there aren't many freight trains, but they do exist
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Old November 5th, 2019, 10:31 AM   #7747
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That's another special case, kind of similar to the Perpignan example, being Hs1 the only connection to the continent with the proper clearance.
It's interesting, though... I wonder how they organize maintenance if there is traffic at night. Other HS infrastructure operators have been criticized as being sometimes too "conservative".
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Old November 5th, 2019, 11:35 AM   #7748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
That's another special case, kind of similar to the Perpignan example, being Hs1 the only connection to the continent with the proper clearance.
It's interesting, though... I wonder how they organize maintenance if there is traffic at night. Other HS infrastructure operators have been criticized as being sometimes too "conservative".
There aren't many freight trains, so I imagine they just use one line and the other can be closed for maintenance.

It's probably not very relevant to the US though where freight volumes are a lot higher than most routes in Europe.
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Old November 5th, 2019, 02:52 PM   #7749
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I think freights running on dedicated high speed/passenger rail tracks will only arise if demand falls short or demand is hugely concentrated during certain times of the day/week. If the unused capacity is sizable then it can be utilized for freight traffic.
I suppose any dedicated trackage for passenger rail will have to be built such that the allowable top speed is justified by cost/economic potential/patronage of that route.
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Old November 6th, 2019, 06:05 AM   #7750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Indian View Post
I think freights running on dedicated high speed/passenger rail tracks will only arise if demand falls short or demand is hugely concentrated during certain times of the day/week. If the unused capacity is sizable then it can be utilized for freight traffic.
I suppose any dedicated trackage for passenger rail will have to be built such that the allowable top speed is justified by cost/economic potential/patronage of that route.
Freight tracks has a higher tolerance for cant deficiency since it has no regard for comfort toward passengers.
They only need to tie down the freight to secure the stacked cargo.
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Old November 11th, 2019, 07:51 PM   #7751
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CHSRA completes environmental process for final section of Fresno – Bakersfield HS line

CALIFORNIA High-Speed Rail Authority (CHSRA) has completed the environmental
review process for the final section of the Fresno – Bakersfield high-speed line.


https://www.railjournal.com/passenge...field-hs-line/
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