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Old August 10th, 2005, 10:09 PM   #21
Rocky Mountain Shawn
 
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Invevitably, a post about SLC will turn to religion. That's fine, I think it's healthy to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Mormonism breaks down like this: it was a sect that ultimately pushed out of the Midwest in the 1800's because its leader, Joseph Smith, was trying to create a theocracy on the banks of the Mississippi River in the city of Nauvoo, Illinois. Smith took on multiple wives (some as young as 14) and when a non-Mormon newspaper published his extra-marital exploits, he, as the Mayor of Nauvoo and spiritual head of some 15,000 Mormon citizens, ordered the press destroyed. He was thrown into jail by Illinois authorities and ultimately succumbed to an angry mob that lynched he and his brother, Hyrum, but not before firing several shots into the approaching mob. His successor, Brigham Young, held his finger to the wind and decided to get the hell out of dodge. Thus began the great westward migration.

Young, after sending several scouts to scope out areas between the mostly-uncharted area between the Sierra Nevada and the Rockies, led the Mormons to Utah, where, in a fit of theatrics, declared "this is the place." Later, it was Young's intent to establish an independent, theocratic state in the Great Basin of which he would be the supreme leader. This, however, never worked out due to the intervention of the U.S. military which was dispatched to Salt Lake City to keep an eye on Young' shenanigans. As a result, SLC is the only city in the west where the military base, Fort Douglas, had its guns turned toward the city.

As the world grew smaller through the introduction of the railroad, telegraph, and a steady stream of new residents into the Salt Lake Valley, the Mormon Church evolved, eventually allying itself rather than confronting the federal government. This evolution continues, as the Mormon Church's growth has started to decline at the same time the internet has flourished. Most non-Mormon's in Utah are familiar with the real story of the Mormon church and increasingly, its members are too despite the admonishment to avoid satanic, "anti-mormon" literature. The Salt Lake Tribune has recently published a series of reports that establish two notable phenomena: the Mormon church only has 4 million active members despite the claim that there are 11 million members and growing and, within a few decades, Mormons will be the minority in Utah. This can certainly be evidenced by the burgeoning cosmopolitanism in Salt Lake City. Our mayor (who is villified by the Mormon political establishment in Utah) is an extremely progressive politician who has gained worldwide attention for his efforts to combat global warming and other environmental concerns on the local level. Many Mormons in Utah see him as a political aberration, but the changing demographics in the Salt Lake Valley would state otherwise.

I am a big Rocky Anderson supporter (the mayor's name) because of his push for higher densities, public transit, and nightlife options. We are starting to see more infill projects in the city and increasingly, more people are moving downtown and contributing to the city's somewhat-anemic pulse. There are a few promising projects in the queue for Downtown SLC, and as they come about, I'll be sure to post them.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
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Old August 10th, 2005, 10:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Invevitably, a post about SLC will turn to religion
You dont suppose it was the inference to "Religious Whackos"?

LOL
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Old August 10th, 2005, 10:59 PM   #23
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Touché. But the post itself was about SLC and its evolution out from a cultist backwater to a dynamic, cosmopolitan city.

And I'll stop calling Mormons religious whackos the day they formally apologize for institutionalized racism (instead of hiding behind "it was revealed"), persecution of gays and lesbians, and the subjugation of women.

I do not believe in tolerance for intolerance.
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Old August 10th, 2005, 11:53 PM   #24
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Really interesting post Rocky Mountian.

I was wondering have you ever seen (an now I seem imature) the mormon south park episode. I don't know its credibiltiy but I can say that if any of it is true that mormonism isn't all that its made out to be.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:01 AM   #25
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South Park can be very educational
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:03 AM   #26
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Excellent post Shawn.

The history of any religion is a mixed bag, of course. Inevitably, we bring human failings and desires into our most otherworldly of concerns. Religion, properly understood, is always being revealed and expanded. We no longer condone slavery, or treat women as chattel, and even the humanity of homosexuals is now a given. But some religions take pride in not evolving. They get mired in their own authoritarianism. And ultimately they substitute dogma for spirit.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
But the post itself was about SLC and its evolution out from a cultist backwater to a dynamic, cosmopolitan city
Ironic that you should say that because The Church itself is by far the biggest driver of Cosmopolitanism in The Salt Lake Metro.

Quote:
And I'll stop calling Mormons religious whackos the day they formally apologize for institutionalized racism (instead of hiding behind "it was revealed")persecution of gays and lesbians, and the subjugation of women.
Oh go ahead and call us whatever you want... I just found it odd that you needed to start you thread about such a nice city with such a negative tone. Oh well.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:33 AM   #28
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SDFan, if the South Park episode you're referring to is the one where everyone's in hell and wondering just how the pun they got there, then yes, I've seen it and laughed heartily. The whole absurdity of Mormonism being the absolute truth and humanity's 5000+ years of religion and philosophy being thown by the wayside is wondrously conveyed.

Although I myself am not a religious person, I have no problem with it as long as it doesn't find its way into the lives of people who don't share its beliefs. This is exactly why me and a growing section of the population in Utah are getting fed-up with the (slim) Mormon majority determining what we can drink and when, who we marry, what we do with our bodies, and saddling us with an unfair share of the tax burden. Fortunately, there are enough redeeming qualities about this place that make it attractive to people like me and others in the growing non-Mormon population. We are growing and in the process, cultivating a great city that will get even greater.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain Shawn
SDFan, if the South Park episode you're referring to is the one where everyone's in hell and wondering just how the pun they got there, then yes, I've seen it and laughed heartily. The whole absurdity of Mormonism being the absolute truth and humanity's 5000+ years of religion and philosophy being thown by the wayside is wondrously conveyed.
Oh yes there was that one, which was a great episode. The one Im refering to though is when a Mormon family moves into town, probably one of there greatest episodes. imo that is. They basically tore apart little bits of there philosophy and with that everything came undone. Great episode se if you can find if you haven't seen it.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:42 AM   #30
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Oh yes there was that one, which was a great episode. The one Im refering to though is when a Mormon family moves into town, probably one of there greatest episodes. imo that is. They basically tore apart little bits of there philosophy and with that everything came undone
Fiction indeed...LOL
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Old August 11th, 2005, 02:09 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bay_area
Fiction indeed...LOL
I can't say if it is or isn't.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 02:23 AM   #32
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OK Nic. If it was really "a simple question" and not a statment then why the long drawn out mormon bashing that followed the "simple question?" Why not just state your question and let the conversation take place. You could simply ask
Quote:
"Don't Mormons believe that people of African descent to be cursed; something along the lines of when Cain killed Abel, God cursed him by turning him black, and all people of African descent are of his seed?"
Even this is an obnoxious way of asking a "simple question" but not as bad as asking
Quote:
Don't Mormons believe that people of African descent to be cursed; something along the lines of when Cain killed Abel, God cursed him by turning him black, and all people of African descent are of his seed? I hope this isn't true, because that's about the most racist thing I've heard! FYI, I was told this by a Mormon, but said only the most fundamentalist Mormons, like the ones still practicing polygamy, believe this. But still, if it's in your bible, that is enough to make me never want to go to Utah.
You dident ask a simple question and so you wont get a simple answer. You were trying to be obnoxious by making a statment and hiding behind it by saying it was a simple question because you put a question mark behind it!
Quote:
Check out the freek from TX thats in the White House
Quote:
then YOU dancer, start saying how bush is some racist, like I and the state of Texas are responsible for some guy from Connecticut who moved here when he became an adult.
I was out of line about the Texas bashing though and you have a good point. I apologise for that one.

Last edited by Dancer; August 11th, 2005 at 07:11 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 07:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bay_area
Ironic that you should say that because The Church itself is by far the biggest driver of Cosmopolitanism in The Salt Lake Metro.

Can you explain how? This is a confusing statement because the two largest contributors to the area's economy is 1) the twice-yearly Outdoor Retailer Conference and 2) the Sundance Film Festival. Neither of these things are related to the church.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 07:52 PM   #34
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Cos·mo·pol·i·tan (kzm-pl-tn) composed of people from or at home in many parts of the world
There are 4-5 Spanish Speaking Wards,4-5 Portuguese Speaking Wards in Salt Lake, over 20 Tongan Wards and a host of other foreign language wards. Why do you think this many foreigners have moved to Salt Lake? Because they wanted to go skiing?
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Old August 11th, 2005, 08:33 PM   #35
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I suppose if you were to take the strictest definition of "cosmopolitan," people from other nation-states do come due to their membership in the Mormon Church. However, sizeable East African, Eastern European, Latin American, and Southest Asian populations are in SLC and not because of the Mormon Church. But I think you're missing the point, which is cosmoplitan in terms of overall diversity that comes from representing different communities, whether they be ethnic, religious, economic, political, etc. Using different languages in order to reinforce sameness in areas other than language is not becoming of a true Cosmopolis, so it does not matter to me how many wards speaking different languages there are as they all preach from the same damn lesson manual.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 09:53 PM   #36
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I suppose if you were to take the strictest definition of "cosmopolitan,"
as opposed to the loosest definition?

Quote:
However, sizeable East African, Eastern European, Latin American, and Southest Asian populations are in SLC and not because of the Mormon Church.
Sizeable perhaps, but these other groups are dwarfed by the number of foreigners who have come to because of the church.

Quote:
so it does not matter to me how many wards speaking different languages there are as they all preach from the same damn lesson manual
You can rest assured that they bring their food, music, dance, art and cultural traditions with them.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 10:34 PM   #37
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I know that the LDS church has played a huge part in the immigration of alot of Tongans/Samoans in Utah County. I remember knowing a few from my boarding school in Provo and they took us to this huge cultural festival at the Utah Valley College (I think thats what its called) and it was crazy to see all the traditions that these people have kept even in a very judgemental society.
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Old August 12th, 2005, 06:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bay_area
Whackos?
Well, Im a Mormon and I find your title offensive and rude.
Same- the title is completely rude!
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Old August 12th, 2005, 07:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bay_area

Sizeable perhaps, but these other groups are dwarfed by the number of foreigners who have come to because of the church.
What? Do you know how many Latin American immigrants live in the Salt Lake Valley?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 07:38 AM   #40
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Pathetic

Some people on here should be ashamed of themselves. This is lame.

Salt Lake City is a very beautiful city and it has one of the best backdrops in the world.

I live there.
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