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Old August 28th, 2019, 05:15 PM   #2201
PerpetualBrum
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..Don't mind me. Benacre are back with demolition notices for four buildings.
Quote:
Application Details
Application Number2019/06936/PA
Application TypeDemolition Determination
Site Address: Units 1 & 2, 151 Hurst Street; 29-30 & 32-34 Lower Essex Street Digbeth Birmingham B5 6SN
ProposalApplication for Prior Notification for the proposed demolition of existing buildings
City Demolition will crack on with this from the second week of September onwards

..as you were

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Old August 28th, 2019, 06:31 PM   #2202
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Do we know if there are any plans that have been mooted for these sites? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything but I seem to remember some time back that some plans were mentioned for this end of Hurst Street.
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Old August 28th, 2019, 07:25 PM   #2203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerpetualBrum View Post
..Don't mind me. Benacre are back with demolition notices for four buildings.


City Demolition will crack on with this from the second week of September onwards

..as you were

We won't lose any food/bar units with this, will we??
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Old August 28th, 2019, 09:29 PM   #2204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post

Your description above of Manchester's 'proper' gay village sounds an awful lot like Brum's gay village?? LGBT+ people 'live and play' in both villages, something I fully accept (why wouldn't I??).
Well that is different to what you was saying yesterday as you told the forum that deep down you didn't even want the Timber Yard built and instead keep dusty surface car parks all around the gay village until the end of time just so that we can keep the status quo, so make up your mind ??

So much for wanting gay people to live in the gay village ??
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Old August 29th, 2019, 02:18 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by Brum X View Post
Well that is different to what you was saying yesterday as you told the forum that deep down you didn't even want the Timber Yard built and instead keep dusty surface car parks all around the gay village until the end of time just so that we can keep the status quo, so make up your mind ??

So much for wanting gay people to live in the gay village ??
FFS. Will people stop putting words in my mouth? - I said I thought planning for the Timber Yard should have been refused, but have NEVER said I want to 'keep dusty surface car parks all around the gay village until the end of time just so that we can keep the status quo'
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Old August 29th, 2019, 02:52 PM   #2206
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Originally Posted by djay View Post
That's your opinion based on what i said. I've not said it couldn't happen again, it just doesn't seem to be happening here right now.

Again, the fact is that it's not what is currently happening.

Have you read the noise report because i have. The argument they put forward was that the mitigation was sufficient. The Council disagree. There is no such thing as 'full noise mitigation measures'. Mitigation is recommended based on the noise climate.

No, they have pulled it because it is recommended for refusal and they don't think they will win an appeal. This is an example of you not actually looking at the facts and just saying what you feel is happening.

It is definitely in decline. Anyone can see that. The area isn't as strong as it was in the early noughties. I don't know the reason for this but it's plain to see. And it's not just an issue for the Gay Village, Broad Street has suffered similar decline.
Again, you're expressing opinions as facts. Unless you are the developer you can't possibly know 'for a fact' what their strategy is and motivations are. You're 'choosing' to see their approach as sincere, and you might well be right, but 'in my opinion' their approach does not look entirely sincere.

I agree there is no such thing as 'full noise mitigation' - but the point being made was that it should have been obvious to the developers that they would need to employ the maximum possible mitigation measures to have a hope of securing planning. Instead they chose not to. It's open to interpretation why they chose to do this.

With regard to them pulling the application, you've just repeated what I said using different words?? We've both said the app has been pulled because it was likely to be refused - I went on to say that this is because of the opposition to it from both the council and community - a fact surely?

The gay 'scene' has declined from it's heyday, that's true, but has remained relatively stable now for some years. I don't see 'perpetual' decline. All of the bars in the area are being maintained to a high standard and attract decent crowds, especially at the weekends. It's a shame to be so dismissive about the scene, as that is basically an argument used to ignore the concerns being expressed and expedite the demise of the 'village'.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 03:04 PM   #2207
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so instead of apartments being developed in the area? what would you prefer these empty spots become?

I for one, thinks these apartment builds will only make the gay quarter florish with the extra people in the area.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 03:11 PM   #2208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerpetualBrum View Post
..Don't mind me. Benacre are back with demolition notices for four buildings.


City Demolition will crack on with this from the second week of September onwards

..as you were

Oh dear This looks to be the block of buildings next to those recently demolished opposite The Village.

Perfectly good buildings, heritage assets in some cases, that have all had/have active uses and could continue to do so...

This ties in with what has been mooted. The buildings at the end nr Sherlock Street will be next. I expect we'll see a major proposal soon.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 03:27 PM   #2209
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Originally Posted by Force_alfa View Post
so instead of apartments being developed in the area? what would you prefer these empty spots become?

I for one, thinks these apartment builds will only make the gay quarter florish with the extra people in the area.
I'd first of all ask yourself the question 'why are there empty spots?' - These sites never used to be empty. As we're seeing above, landowners/developers demolish perfectly good buildings leaving just 'dusty car parks'. Many of these buildings had active uses and the business owners were forced out.

They could have continued to be commercial properties, providing jobs, diversity and vibrancy to the area - but the landowners can smell bigger rewards and so chase the money. Understandable, but when they flatten large areas when they don't have planning or the money to build, we get left with wastelands...

If you build apartment blocks, with decent commercial at ground level, you probably will end up with a vibrant quarter - however, you're unlikely to see late night bars and clubs due to the noise issues and those that are there already will probably close. Plus, most of the people moving in won't be from the LGBT+ community - So you build apartments in this area and you might end up with a vibrant quarter, but it won't be a gay quarter.

I think builds in this area should be limited to 'commercial' activities - shops, bars, restaurants, offices, hotels, cinemas, healthcare, warehousing, 'leisure' venues (escape rooms, climbing centres, etc) - just not private homes.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 03:36 PM   #2210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post

If you build apartment blocks, with decent commercial at ground level, you probably will end up with a vibrant quarter - however, you're unlikely to see late night bars and clubs due to the noise issues and those that are there already will probably close. Plus, most of the people moving in won't be from the LGBT+ community - So you build apartments in this area and you might end up with a vibrant quarter, but it won't be a gay quarter.

I think builds in this area should be limited to 'commercial' activities - shops, bars, restaurants, offices, hotels, cinemas, healthcare, warehousing, 'leisure' venues (escape rooms, climbing centres, etc) - just not private homes.
why wouldn't people from the LGBT community move in these apartments? Also someone buying one of these apartments are purchasing something that is already known

In London, ministry of sound is still open, after apartments built very close by, dont see why this cant be the case here?
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Old August 29th, 2019, 04:19 PM   #2211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Force_alfa View Post
why wouldn't people from the LGBT community move in these apartments? Also someone buying one of these apartments are purchasing something that is already known

In London, ministry of sound is still open, after apartments built very close by, dont see why this cant be the case here?
I'm sure people from the LGBTQ community will buy some of these however the impression I get given the growth of Chinatown that they're far more likely to be bought/rented by Chinese students which could also change the balance of the area.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 04:31 PM   #2212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post
Again, you're expressing opinions as facts. Unless you are the developer you can't possibly know 'for a fact' what their strategy is and motivations are. You're 'choosing' to see their approach as sincere, and you might well be right, but 'in my opinion' their approach does not look entirely sincere.
I work with many developers to do just this, get them planning permission, i know that for almost all developers (and all the ones i have worked for) all they care about is viability and getting a developable permission in the easiest way possible. Trying to hurt an area that they are trying to sell dwellings in is not really part of the strategy for obvious reasons.

However, if i am choosing to see their approach as sincere, you must merely be choosing to see their approach as insincere.

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Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post
I agree there is no such thing as 'full noise mitigation' - but the point being made was that it should have been obvious to the developers that they would need to employ the maximum possible mitigation measures to have a hope of securing planning. Instead they chose not to. It's open to interpretation why they chose to do this.
No it is not obvious, the mitigation is led by the noise assessment. It is a mix of the methodology of the assessment and the noise levels observed which give rise to recommendations for building the development. It is your failure to understand what is going on which is why your point is utter rubbish.

The applicant is stating the noise levels require X mitigation. The council disagrees with the noise assessment methodology. That is where the contention is. It is not about whether there is sufficient mitigation.

The Officer report states:

". The key policy issues are therefore twofold: whether well-designed high quality residential accommodation can be provided and; whether residential development in reasonable restrictions on the Nightingale and undermine the distinctive character of the Gay Village.

In this instance the applicant is proposing a high specification glazing system with mechanical ventilation and openable windows. This would allow residents to open their windows, as for the majority of the time the noise environment does not require sealed units. However, for Thursdays, Friday and Saturday night times when noise from Nightingale is loudest, the windows would need to be closed to achieve the required noise mitigation. This solution could create satisfactory living conditions provided the glazing and ventilation specification is adequate

However, with openable windows there is potential for prospective residents to complain about noise nuisance from the Nightingale, which without an “agent of change agreement” could jeopardise the operation of the club and undermine the Gay Village. As such this would be contrary to the above polices within the Birmingham Development Plan and NPPF"


The applicant has said that the council is not making a consistent decision here as it has accepted openable windows adjacent to late night noisy venues elsewhere in the city.

So as you can see, mitigation is not really the issue here.

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Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post
With regard to them pulling the application, you've just repeated what I said using different words?? We've both said the app has been pulled because it was likely to be refused - I went on to say that this is because of the opposition to it from both the council and community - a fact surely?
No, it is not the opposition from the community, it is because there are disagreements regarding the noise survey. BCC Regulatory Services (the noise guys) said the following:

"BCC Regulatory Services have reviewed the additional information submitted and have the following concerns:-
• Attended noise monitoring – although the figures in applicant noise report are similar to BCC figures from 2007, there is no way of knowing if the Nightingale terrace was operating the way it does now. The applicant has not completed any attended measurements and/or recordings, so does not know what volume the Nightingale was operating at, whether the Nightingale terrace was in operation (and if so, what volume the speakers were).
• The necessary mitigation is complex and full details should be included in the approved plans as part of the submission rather than required by conditions. This is to ensure that the mitigation is included at the design stage. If this is conditioned then there is a risk that insufficient mitigation may be installed resulting in refusal to discharge the condition and/or Enforcement action. The applicant should ensure that the worst case noise levels have been considered in the acoustic assessment when designing mitigation.
• Ventilation would need to provide comfort cooling (circa 4 air changes per hour), whilst ensuring noise break in (from outside and the ventilation plant) is acceptable.
• Glazing specification – BCC Regulatory Services have not been able to confirm whether or not the glazing specification would deal with the worst case scenario. In addition, the highest specification for the Lower St and Kent Street fašades should be for the whole fašade not just for bedrooms (as living rooms could be used as bedrooms).
• The noise from proposed A1 to A4 uses can be controlled through restricting hours of operation (and deliveries) as well as a sound insulation condition for commercial to residential uses.
• The submitted noise reports indicate that to ensure an acceptable indoor
environment residents of the proposed development would have to keep their windows closed to mitigate entertainment noise. Whilst the African Village decision implies this is acceptable this would not be acceptable under Statutory Nuisance provisions. If the proposed development goes ahead and residents complain as a result of intrusive noise BCC Regulatory Services are almost certain to determine a statutory nuisance from the Nightingale and will be legally obliged to serve notice (as under statutory nuisance residents would be entitled to open their windows regardless of whether mechanical ventilation is available or not). The only way to resolve the issue is for both sides to enter into an agent of change agreement."


So again as you can see, this is not so much about motive but more agreement about, 1) the methodology of the noise assessment, 2) the noise level observed, 3) the mitigation for the noise level observed but more specifically having opening windows, 4) the amount of information the Council are requesting up front.

Your whole argument is predicated on a misunderstanding of the actual issues for which it has been refused for.

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Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post
The gay 'scene' has declined from it's heyday, that's true, but has remained relatively stable now for some years. I don't see 'perpetual' decline. All of the bars in the area are being maintained to a high standard and attract decent crowds, especially at the weekends. It's a shame to be so dismissive about the scene, as that is basically an argument used to ignore the concerns being expressed and expedite the demise of the 'village'.
Ok but you said it hadn't declined so lets leave that one there now you admit it has.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 08:53 PM   #2213
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FFS. Will people stop putting words in my mouth? - I said I thought planning for the Timber Yard should have been refused, but have NEVER said I want to 'keep dusty surface car parks all around the gay village until the end of time just so that we can keep the status quo'
I refer you to post 2187 ??? So what did you mean becouse I am friggin confused ??
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 03:10 PM   #2214
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I refer you to post 2187 ??? So what did you mean becouse I am friggin confused ??
Lol, well none of us are mind readers - when you said 'leave the area exactly as it is' it seems you were thinking of 'dusty car parks' whereas I was thinking of the built environment.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 03:19 PM   #2215
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No disrespect Djay, but as I said before, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 03:54 PM   #2216
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No disrespect Djay, but as I said before, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
None taken but there is not loss of respect in admitting you are wrong and changing your position when presented with evidence.

I can see you have strong feelings about the subject but in this situation you are unfortunately wrong as you've misinterpreted what is happening.
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Old September 3rd, 2019, 03:58 PM   #2217
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None taken but there is not loss of respect in admitting you are wrong and changing your position when presented with evidence.
Totally agree, but I haven't been presented with any evidence that makes me think I am wrong or have any need to change my opinion.

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I can see you have strong feelings about the subject but in this situation you are unfortunately wrong as you've misinterpreted what is happening.
What can I say. We have both looked at the facts and formed our viewpoints, however I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that you are wrong. Clearly your feelings on this are stronger than mine.
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Old September 3rd, 2019, 04:20 PM   #2218
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Ok but you said it hadn't declined so lets leave that one there now you admit it has.
No, for clarity you said -

Quote:
the Gay Village is falling on it's arse
to which I said -

Quote:
I don't recognise your description of the scene as 'falling on its arse'
to which you replied -

Quote:
It is definitely in decline. Anyone can see that. The area isn't as strong as it was in the early noughties. I don't know the reason for this but it's plain to see. And it's not just an issue for the Gay Village, Broad Street has suffered similar decline.
followed by me saying -

Quote:
The gay 'scene' has declined from it's heyday, that's true, but has remained relatively stable now for some years. I don't see 'perpetual' decline. All of the bars in the area are being maintained to a high standard and attract decent crowds, especially at the weekends. It's a shame to be so dismissive about the scene, as that is basically an argument used to ignore the concerns being expressed and expedite the demise of the 'village'.
So nowhere did I say it hadn't declined - You suggested it had declined and was 'still' declining. I agreed it had declined, but disagreed it was 'still' declining.
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Old September 3rd, 2019, 04:27 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by LocalVernacular View Post
No, for clarity you said -



to which I said -



to which you replied -



followed by me saying -



So nowhere did I say it hadn't declined - You suggested it had declined and was 'still' declining. I agreed it had declined, but disagreed it was 'still' declining.
Fair enough.
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Old September 14th, 2019, 11:20 PM   #2220
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Another one to put on your "jokers" list. I have lost count how many times this car park has been closed and then re-open. Lol

Oh well it will keep some in the so called gay village happy. BOOM BOOM BOOM all night long.

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