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Newcastle Metro Area For Newcastle, N Tyneside, Gateshead, S Tyneside, South Northumberland


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Old November 19th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #61
Smash17
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Originally Posted by johnnypd View Post
Actually I think there is an intrinsic advantage to above ground stations with the qualities of space and light and historic or cutting edge architecture. No matter how good you make a subterranean addition it's never going to be that great. An eldon square under the platforms would be, to me, a criticism and not a compliment. I don't like eldon square. i dont want to see it replicated at central station.

As for the Gare du Nord addtion, the best bit of that - the escalators, is only sunken and not completely covered therefore has space and light. even then it is not as nice as the historic trainshed. And once you get to the covered bits it is ordinary at the best of times and claustraphobic at rush hour.

Don't get me wrong, I am in support of an underground section with extra facilities but i really am against the entire concourse being moved underground. The station is fine as it is (we don't yet need extra platforms) apart from the issue of an extra entrance which should be on the south side, with tunnels under the platforms and a bigger concourse linking in with the Metro, with extra ticketing, shop and info facilities. that shouldnt mean getting rid of the existing above ground facilities though as the two should complement one another. Those coming from the neville street entrance can use the existing stuff and those from the south or Metro would be more inclined to use the new facilities.
I'm with Johnny here. The last thing the city needs is another Eldon Square being built. Natural light is something you should use if it's available. Putting significant parts of the station underground would be a crying shame and one that would be regretted for years to come. Think of Sunderland Station when they chose to remove the roof to build extra things on top, they've regretted that decision to this day.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #62
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reckon Wilf was having a laugh at the use of the word 'spruced'

Whoooosssh! That one went straight over my head.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 11:29 PM   #63
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I disagree that it is poor, i use it all the time and can see little wrong with it for current needs (apart from the southern entrance as already stated). If i had a choice between the current set up or a main underground concourse i'd take the former and actually think the latter would make the station worse rather than improve it. as for cluttered - it is cluttered in the old photos taken above - actually more so! I don't think it is terrible simply because the sheer space of the train sheds overwhelms amy small stalls set up relatively discreetly against walls or alongside the bridge. And again, it's a more spacious situation than an underground space lined with shops.

The only thing I would like to add is a small food store such as a Simply Food such as the one in Edinburgh, which could fit into the space currently used by Newcastle Hero as there is simply no need for two pubs and the centurion is bigger and better. alternatively a larger underground space could be built, but again, i wouldnt want it to be made the main concourse but complementary.
It is a poor layout and is far too congested in it's main area. It's typical of UK railway stations - take a nice basic station and clutter it to death with cheap nasty looking ticket offices, stalls, etc and put no thought into where people go so everyone is getting in each others way.

You have to think to the future and Central Station is poorly equipped to deal with any sort of advances or progress.

This underground passageway idea would improve things dramatically. People can still go on the platforms you know - but they'll get there from below. I really don't get this attitude so many people have of things which are well used elsewhere in Europe. It's almost like you don't want to see the station improve just so people can have nice views when they're buying a ticket or grabbing a burger. Maybe we should shut down the Metro because for about 15 minutes you don't get to see any daylight? You even seem to be suggesting because the station was cluttered a long time ago it's ok that it is now.

Last edited by Salif; November 19th, 2009 at 11:35 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 11:40 PM   #64
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I'm with Johnny here. The last thing the city needs is another Eldon Square being built. Natural light is something you should use if it's available. Putting significant parts of the station underground would be a crying shame and one that would be regretted for years to come. Think of Sunderland Station when they chose to remove the roof to build extra things on top, they've regretted that decision to this day.
Eldon Square was just a vague description of the shopping centre beneath Gare du Nord. I seriously don't think Newcastle Central will ever become a 35 track mega station with mass underground complexes beneath it.

Again you've used the Sunderland example - yeah they built on top of it so it's completely different. What's being talked about here is putting passenger facilities into a passageway beneath the platforms. People can still see the light when they go up to wait for their trains.

It wouldn't ruin anything, it would infact greatly improve the overall experience of the platform areas. There would be no over bridge, hanging signs, nasty looking ticket office to spoil the views.

As I said before, Sunderland and Birmingham were botch jobs where no thought at all was given to the railway part of the station. I can't think why you have decided this scheme is automatically the same just because they want to dig down a bit? It's just a passageway for people to walk through. There's nothing wrong with going underground you know.

Last edited by Newcastle Historian; January 29th, 2014 at 07:42 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 11:49 PM   #65
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just a passageway for people to walk through. There's nothing wrong with going underground you know.
Yes, but that's precisely not what you're arguing. You're saying, basically, that all the reasons people use a station, other than actually boarding the train, should take place in a new underground concourse.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:11 AM   #66
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Yes, but that's precisely not what you're arguing. You're saying, basically, that all the reasons people use a station, other than actually boarding the train, should take place in a new underground concourse.
No, I'm saying in a station where space is at a premium like Newcastle Central then it is a very good solution.

Ideally the station would have loads of space in front of it where all shops and ticket offices could be located with a nice glass roof and tunnels or bridges merely used for reaching platforms.

Personally I'd have thought that portico should have been designed as a concourse running the full length of the station with lots of glass and natural light and entrances at either side. Then as suggested before it could be 'dug out' so Gare du Nord style so you descend whilst still enjoying the natural light.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #67
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I wasn't arguing for the Metro to be shut down - merely pointing out how I feel your reasoning would apply.
That was my point - it's ridiculous to characterise my argument like that.

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Because this whole objection to going underground seems bizarre to me. And what's this about an underground mall? I suggested an underground concourse with shops (not a mall), ticket office and toilets linking into the metro concourse and two new entrances. You seemed to have turned that into some sort of underground city just becaused I cited Gare du Nord as an example of how things can work.
No i think i have a reasonable idea of what an underground concourse at Central would be like. Mall is simply a prejorative term on my part referencing not the scale of the concourse but the interiority of it.

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And you're absolutely right I'm inflexible, I think about things and then when I've decided which option I prefer I stick with it and argue to the death in favour of it. Might not be a popular way to be but that's who I am and I prefer that to sitting on the fence and just watching things not happen.
What I am getting at is that you seem to think we have this huge problem with an underground concourse or whatever, saying nonsense like 'it's not like you're descending to the fiery pits of hell' makes out like there is this irrational kneejerk reaction against underground facilities.

but in fact if you look back at what Andrew has suggested you will see that basically everyone in the thread has said it was a good idea. we already have a very limited underground concourse for the Metro with a couple of shops down there, and i think it would be great to extend that, put some mainline ticket machines down there, some extra shops, and build a tunnel linking it to the south side of the station and even a couple of platforms.

However i don't agree that everything currently above ground, excepting actually getting on trains, should be removed and placed underground. I think this would make for a poorer passenger experience.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #68
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In fact something like this might work http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ion_inside.jpg
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #69
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In fact something like this might work http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ion_inside.jpg
now that i can agree with.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:30 AM   #70
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That was my point - it's ridiculous to characterise my argument like that.


No i think i have a reasonable idea of what an underground concourse at Central would be like. Mall is simply a prejorative term on my part referencing not the scale of the concourse but the interiority of it.



What I am getting at is that you seem to think we have this huge problem with an underground concourse or whatever, saying nonsense like 'it's not like you're descending to the fiery pits of hell' makes out like there is this irrational kneejerk reaction against underground facilities.

but in fact if you look back at what Andrew has suggested you will see that basically everyone in the thread has said it was a good idea. we already have a very limited underground concourse for the Metro with a couple of shops down there, and i think it would be great to extend that, put some mainline ticket machines down there, some extra shops, and build a tunnel linking it to the south side of the station and even a couple of platforms.

However i don't agree that everything currently above ground, excepting actually getting on trains, should be removed and placed underground. I think this would make for a poorer passenger experience.
I'm too lazy to separate different points like that so I'll just do it this way if you don't mind:

1) No characterisation intended - I can't say I've ever heard of someone characterising someone's argument.

2) Fair enough - but Mall to me has always suggested something of a very grand scale. And up until now I presumed everyone else did as well.

3) I do get this impression there is somewhat of a bad reaction to putting things underground, can't change that - I just read things as I see them.

What I believe is that this is a great opportunity and should be more then just a passageway. I would love to see Central Station as clutter free as possible because I think without that ticket office, over bridge, hanging signs, kiosk, etc it would look stunning. I think there is a lot to be gained from separating areas of the station like that.

As long as the platforms have natural light I don't think you lose anything.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:34 AM   #71
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now that i can agree with.
Could have something like that either side of the portico and 'glass up' the gaps of the portico to complete the job. Then have everything in that area with access to underground or over ground passageways leading to the platforms.

Or even have it beneath street level - not underground but a step down if that makes sense?

Then it would integrate with the metro concourse.

Would literally be a window onto the city for visitors - get a good look before you step outside.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #72
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What I believe is that this is a great opportunity and should be more then just a passageway. I would love to see Central Station as clutter free as possible because I think without that ticket office, over bridge, hanging signs, kiosk, etc it would look stunning. I think there is a lot to be gained from separating areas of the station like that.

As long as the platforms have natural light I don't think you lose anything.
I too think the Central should be decluttered, but this need not be at the expense of losing all light and commerce from the concourse. There are long ranges of offices on the interior of the station that certainly don't appear to be overused, and surely some of these could be converted to accommodate small cafes, an M&S Simply Food, maybe a rival fast food place to BK, and one or two other shops, with perhaops one or tow 'cabins' for florist, etc. The Central doesn't have huge traffic figures so facilities to match ManPicc or Leeds aren't really necessary, and wouldn't have too much visual impact. BUT - and here I think I disagree with Salif - these things are part and parcel of travel and part of the life of the station, and we'd be losing something by hiding them away.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:41 AM   #73
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And I like the idea of the port cochere continuing to serve its original purpose!
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #74
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^Sounds good to me.

I also think there's room for more platforms to the west side of the station where the covered carpark currently is. These could be used as terminating stops if the west end line is ever re-instated.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 01:04 AM   #75
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Eldon Square was just a vague description of the shopping centre beneath Gare du Nord. I seriously don't think Newcastle Central will ever become a 35 track mega station with mass underground complexes beneath it.
Me neither but the station doesn't really need any new retail space, there's enough room overground as it is. As mentioned, a little M&S and perhaps another fast food joint could come but what would you actually want down there?

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Again you've used the Sunderland example - yeah they built on top of it so it's completely different. What's being talked about here is putting passenger facilities into a passageway beneath the platforms. People can still see the light when they go up to wait for their trains.
The point about Sunderland station was that they choose to have a significant portion of the station (yes the trains rather than the concourse but that makes little difference to my point) and their station is massively worse off in this way. Your suggestion of everything bar the trains underground would mean people would spend a large portion of their time underground which completely wastes the whole station.

The whole underground thing would be a massive load of hassle for little gain. There's enough room on the concourse at present, it's just that everything is poorly located.

Last edited by Newcastle Historian; January 29th, 2014 at 07:42 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 10:17 AM   #76
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For what it's worth, I personally don't think a great deal needs to change to Central Station. I'm not a massive fan of the ticket barriers, but it's hardly the end of the world, and the cluttered kiosks, and the ticket office could do with being consolidated into 1 scheme where they all work together. I have no problem with there being a few kiosks, it would be very easy to create an open empty space which people would use like a tunnel, just to get to the platforms. How very dull. Personally, I like the footbridge, and think it adds a little to the drama of the station. I do think an entrance from Forth Street would be a good idea, and, what with there beingtunnels under the station already, and these being turned into retail units, it would have made sense to me, to take one of these as an arcade/concourse section, with access to some of these shop units, and an entrance to the Metro, and through to Central. This would be trickier now, as all of the backs of the shops are in the centre. I saw somewhere the plans of the tunnels under there, I think it was in the planning application for the Sleeperz Hotel.
On other points, I actually don't mind the drop off/ taxi situation as it is. It makes for a busy, bustling entrance to the station, and is far better than having some kind of underground version like Euston Station London (at least they used to have this, I remember from family trips there when I was younger).
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Old November 20th, 2009, 10:31 AM   #77
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And you're absolutely right I'm inflexible, I think about things and then when I've decided which option I prefer I stick with it and argue to the death in favour of it. Might not be a popular way to be but that's who I am and I prefer that to sitting on the fence and just watching things not happen.
Oh excellent, see I thought this was a discussion forum, not one for people to come on all angry and ranting about their opinions and how everyone else's doesn't matter. Everyone else on here listens to other people's opinions whilst putting their's across, and for the most part, are prepared to be proved wrong, or have their minds changed. I know that's the case with me, I have on a number of occasions made suggestions, only to have it pointed out to me why they're not ideal, and have changed my opinion. Well if you refuse to listen to other people's opinions, I don't see why anyone should waste any time lsitening to yours.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:55 PM   #78
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I too think the Central should be decluttered, but this need not be at the expense of losing all light and commerce from the concourse. There are long ranges of offices on the interior of the station that certainly don't appear to be overused, and surely some of these could be converted to accommodate small cafes, an M&S Simply Food, maybe a rival fast food place to BK, and one or two other shops, with perhaops one or tow 'cabins' for florist, etc. The Central doesn't have huge traffic figures so facilities to match ManPicc or Leeds aren't really necessary, and wouldn't have too much visual impact. BUT - and here I think I disagree with Salif - these things are part and parcel of travel and part of the life of the station, and we'd be losing something by hiding them away.
I think saying it was being hidden away is not the right term - if this passageway was all it could be it would be the hub of the station for passengers until you go up to the platforms rather then some hidden area. Of course natural light is ideal.

Not too sure what the state of those offices are but yeah it would seem prudent to take full advantage of them.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #79
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And I like the idea of the port cochere continuing to serve its original purpose!
Seems a bit wasted as an over-elaborate taxi rank/drop off point. Don't think it would be possible (viable) to extend the structure itself to make it as it was originally intended to be. But a Gare du Strasbourg style glass frontage running the full length of the station would look class I think
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Old November 20th, 2009, 01:05 PM   #80
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Me neither but the station doesn't really need any new retail space, there's enough room overground as it is. As mentioned, a little M&S and perhaps another fast food joint could come but what would you actually want down there?



The point about Sunderland station was that they choose to have a significant portion of the station (yes the trains rather than the concourse but that makes little difference to my point) and their station is massively worse off in this way. Your suggestion of everything bar the trains underground would mean people would spend a large portion of their time underground which completely wastes the whole station.

The whole underground thing would be a massive load of hassle for little gain. There's enough room on the concourse at present, it's just that everything is poorly located.
1) How about some local shops which sell things unique to Newcastle?

I certainly think we could do with another food outlet as you say.

2) Sunderland is a botch job, it's the mistakes that you learn from - this will never happen to Newcastle Central thankfully. I don't think it would waste the station because you are going to get to enjoy the main part of it when waiting for your train. And without anything getting in the way of your view. If you're just there for the shops then yeah it would be a pretty subterranean experience. But even then a well planned underground environment needn't be a bad thing.
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