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Old June 12th, 2013, 12:26 AM   #41
Cheyorow
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I think people will always be in love with their cars. Right now they just aren't affordable, but one day people will probably decide that they prefer driving around more than they do listening to twelve year old discussing their favorite alcohol and other obnoxious conversation. Generally, people have comfort zones and if they keep their comfort zone intact they will.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #42
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I think clogging up streets and polluting the air is far more obnoxious than the remote possibility of having to listen to twelve year olds discussing their drinking habits.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:47 AM   #43
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In some places the age of the car never left. Car ownership is as high as its ever been.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
From what I have seen is that cars are only really seen as bad in an environmental way. If there was a way to have cars that didn't make any pollution at all like the few electric cars there then maybe people would look at them in a more positive way
For me its not the pollution, I dont care that much about that. Its the space thay take, cars do not work in cities. At least not for everywone.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:30 PM   #45
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You dont care about pollution?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:57 PM   #46
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For me its not the pollution, I dont care that much about that. Its the space thay take, cars do not work in cities. At least not for everywone.
Well, in some cities, it is pedestrians who don't work. I recently saw a documental about Los Angeles, in which they stated that the city is indeed designed for cars, with parkings in almost all the buildings, but many areas lacking even sidewalks...
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 11:13 AM   #47
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You dont care about pollution?
Of course but thats not the big problem when it comes to driving in a city.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #48
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In the UK the age of road building might have gone (there are some things happening now though) but the age of the car hasn't ended at all, people just use overcrowded roads
The big attitude shift is among people who live in cities, for whom being without a car is a viable option.

For people who live in smaller towns, or in rural areas, it's much harder to get by without one. It's more expensive without one, and it's much slower to get anywhere.

And while people might see the benefits of public transport, nearly all housing developments being built on towns are on the outskirts of towns, where public transport options are minimal. A town of 100,000 people can't have trams and multiple train stations serving the area.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:51 PM   #49
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100,000 isn't small.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback View Post
And while people might see the benefits of public transport, nearly all housing developments being built on towns are on the outskirts of towns, where public transport options are minimal. A town of 100,000 people can't have trams and multiple train stations serving the area.
Really? Norrköping has a tram system of two lines that covers a good portion of the city. Coupled with that it has a commuter rail system connecting it and a number of other cities in the immediate area on a 20 minute frequency off-peak as well as standard national rail services. There are no larger cities around except Linköping, which is around 150,000 people so the commuter rail system serves quite small places.

It is perfectly possible to have such transport infrastructure in smaller places.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 10:20 PM   #51
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Really? Norrköping has a tram system of two lines that covers a good portion of the city. Coupled with that it has a commuter rail system connecting it and a number of other cities in the immediate area on a 20 minute frequency off-peak as well as standard national rail services. There are no larger cities around except Linköping, which is around 150,000 people so the commuter rail system serves quite small places.

It is perfectly possible to have such transport infrastructure in smaller places.
Is it privately run or subsidised?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #52
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Is it privately run or subsidised?
Subsidised of course. I don't think there are many privately run systems across Europe that are operating without subsidy. Are you trying to tell me that the bus systems in the UK are all profitable without subsidy, because I can tell you that none of them are to my knowledge. Even the tube isn't profitable!
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Old August 25th, 2013, 10:23 PM   #53
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Really? Norrköping has a tram system of two lines that covers a good portion of the city. Coupled with that it has a commuter rail system connecting it and a number of other cities in the immediate area on a 20 minute frequency off-peak as well as standard national rail services. There are no larger cities around except Linköping, which is around 150,000 people so the commuter rail system serves quite small places.

It is perfectly possible to have such transport infrastructure in smaller places.
Indeed. Trondheim in Norway have a small tram line covering a small, sprawling, unimportant part of the city, yet it seem to work with only 180.000 people (it had less than 50.000 when the line was built) and I doubt the line gives coverage to more than 10% of them. If anything the locals now want to extend it. If that thing can work then I see no reason why you should not be able to develop tram systems for well planned places at around 100.000 people.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #54
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Subsidised of course. I don't think there are many privately run systems across Europe that are operating without subsidy. Are you trying to tell me that the bus systems in the UK are all profitable without subsidy, because I can tell you that none of them are to my knowledge. Even the tube isn't profitable!
I'm suggesting that due to the way our nations differ in tax rates, the level of subsidy here is probably somewhat lower.

The overall point is that housing developments hear never seem to have public transport in mind. They keep building new estates on the edges of towns, where your life will be much harder without a car.

Deregulation in public transport has also created a system where there's no overlap between transport operators. To get to my old job, just 12 miles away, I'd have had to got a bus to the town centre, got a train to the next town, then taken another bus back in the direction I'd come from - and I'd need to buy three separate tickets.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 01:16 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback View Post
I'm suggesting that due to the way our nations differ in tax rates, the level of subsidy here is probably somewhat lower.

The overall point is that housing developments hear never seem to have public transport in mind. They keep building new estates on the edges of towns, where your life will be much harder without a car.

Deregulation in public transport has also created a system where there's no overlap between transport operators. To get to my old job, just 12 miles away, I'd have had to got a bus to the town centre, got a train to the next town, then taken another bus back in the direction I'd come from - and I'd need to buy three separate tickets.
But that is the fault of the network, not of the actual mode of transport that you have poor bus provisions. As for subsidies and tax rates - well, Sweden actually according to the latest Eurostat figures doesn't have a tax rate that different to the UK in terms of income tax. Corporate tax is also fairly low here comparatively, so I don't think that is the reason either.

If the UK allows car-centric developments, again, that is the fault of the government. It isn't a symptom of the actual population level of a settlement.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 03:42 PM   #56
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For people who live in smaller towns, or in rural areas, it's much harder to get by without one. It's more expensive without one, and it's much slower to get anywhere.
In rural Russia scooters (small motorcycles) are becoming popular. Some have cars as well, but some don't and live fine.

Quote:
A town of 100,000 people can't have trams and multiple train stations serving the area.
Without traffic jams a bus service is perfectly enough.

In Vladivostok traffic is awful, but in a nearby Artem, pop 100,000, roads are almost empty, and buses serve even remote streets every few minutes.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #57
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Really? Norrköping has a tram system of two lines that covers a good portion of the city.
It is perfectly possible to have such transport infrastructure in smaller places.
But, is that reasonable? tram lines should be expensive to maintenace... isn't it cheaper to use eco buses?
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Old August 26th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #58
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But, is that reasonable? tram lines should be expensive to maintenace... isn't it cheaper to use eco buses?
Not really. Trams have high CAPEX but not high OPEX. Once tram lines are up and running they are cheaper, but they require a higher cost outlay in their construction. Norrköping extended its tramway fairly recently with other expansions being explored.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #59
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For better or worse, the age of the car is just beginning.

In China, India, Africa, etc.
Completely agree.

This thread is very Western biased. It's easy for wealthy countries to say the age of the car is beginning to wane but that's because we have had the luxury of it for the last century.

Us Westerners do have a lot of nerve telling poorer countries that they should not embrace the car even though we did and continue to although Westerns do like to bitch about other countries defiencies but not our own. Now we are telling the poorer countries to shun the car due to their GHG even though on a per-capita basis none of them come even close to our emissions.

The age of the car is only just beginning as it moves from the few well heeled countries onto the masses of the planet's population.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #60
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But, is that reasonable? tram lines should be expensive to maintenace... isn't it cheaper to use eco buses?
You dont need to buy new trams as often as you need with buses. Until recently we had trams in regular service on suburban lines in Stockholm built in the 1940s.

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