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SNOW CENTRE - The Middlesbrough 'Subzero' Snow Centre | Middlesbrough (Middlehaven) | Various | Cancelled

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#1 ·
Middlesbrough Snow Centre plans 'to make major step forward' next month
By James Cain, The Gazette, 21st December 2015



While there’s not much chance of a white Christmas this year, all-year-round snow could be on the way as plans for a ski centre / snow centre take a major step forward. A planning application for a multi-million pound facility in Middlesbrough will be submitted in the new year following a public consultation, it was confirmed today.

The project, by Teesside-based company Cool Runnings, will involve a £30m private investment and create around 350 jobs. It has also be announced that Gravity Trampoline Parks will open a centre as part of the development. The proposed leisure hub, to be built in Middlehaven next to Middlesbrough College, received overwhelming positive feedback from the public, those behind the project say. "Many responses were from people across the wider North-east, who currently must travel to Castleford or Manchester. Among the more than 1,000 response included comments from a Middlesbrough man who said the proposals were “fantastic, exactly what the area needs, something different and interesting that will kick start the area and allow kids to embrace a great pastime”. A woman from Durham added: “I think this would be great for the North-east” and a woman from Washington saying “The North-east needs this. Bring snow to Middlesbrough. Can’t wait for the plans to become a reality.”

Rachael Howson, of Cool Runnings, said: “We are delighted with the responses we have received from the public consultation. Both in terms of volume and content, it has shown there is a real appetite for a development such as this. “We have been asked how things are progressing with the project and we are happy to report that a lot of work has been going on behind the scenes and we expect to submit an outline planning application early in the new year.”

Read More - http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/middlesbrough-snow-centre-plans-to-10634057



Planning application for MSC due in early 2016. It's also been announced that it'll include a trampoline park with related leisure facilities.

I just can't get over how tall this thing is.

I think I'm gonna have to ask Santa for a wider camera lens...


;)

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#3 ·
Plans submitted for the new ski centre in Middlehaven:

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/middlesbrough-snow-centre-ambitious-30m-11618570

Hopefully it gets approved and hopefully work will start early next year.

Might need its own thread.

There were so many things in that article I didn't know it would have, like the terrace and ice bar (an ice bar in Middlesbrough! Man, I love this town).

God, I could be on the wrong side of 30 by the time this is finished...
 
#4 ·
Plans submitted for the new ski centre in Middlehaven:

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/middlesbrough-snow-centre-ambitious-30m-11618570

Hopefully it gets approved and hopefully work will start early next year.

Might need its own thread.

There were so many things in that article I didn't know it would have, like the terrace and ice bar (an ice bar in Middlesbrough! Man, I love this town).

God, I could be on the wrong side of 30 by the time this is finished...
I don't want to be a downer on this - I am a mod for the forum but spend most of my time in the Newcastle section. I have many of the documents on this [some very oddly worded with the assumptions based on football fans - no I am not sure why either].

Frankly I d forget it. I work in the field, consulting on a number of these projects all over the world and though I would love to see it [as an enthusiast and there would almost certainly be a few quid in it for myself or colleagues] but as an expert there's no way that it can be made to stand up as is.

To make an indoor ski centre have any chance of flying - at least of this sort you need in the order of 4 mil within 1hr+ drive time.

The problem the NE has, and Boro is not the only proposal for the region over the years [I ve worked on a number inc Ncl city centre and there have been proposals for inter alia Widdrington, Dalton Park, Gateshead, Sunderland and so on....] is a simple one of numbers [set to one side the amount of 'disposable cash in the region].

Look at the 'drive circle':

  • Nothing to the east [sea],
  • nothing much to the west [Hexham and Carlisle].
  • Much further south than 'boro and you re into Castleford catchment territory [so strike much of the Leeds-Bradford conurbation out unless they build something simply stunning* - which costs even more so bigger numbers needed to sustain.. and so on],
  • north of Newcastle - only sheep and Morpeth
.
Soooo......on the back of an [ONS] envelope

  • Tyne and Wear 1,093,400
  • County Durham 892,600
  • Northumberland 311,000
  • Teeside 376,633

So a tad over 2.5mil

I d like it to fly, but I just can t make it stack up. The primary reason is population in the NE [Tyne-Teeside because of its location really only has significant catchment in the Ncl - Boro corridor].

Now you can knock those numbers about a bit but nowhere near enough to make it fly.

Obviously the travelling distances increase if the facility becomes significantly 'better' [bigger, better snow etc etc] than the competition; think of the former SSAWS in Tokyo, Ski Dubai or the proposed [though unlikely] Snoasis. However [as they have all found] there is also an inbuilt problem - up to about 120-150m the user no's [sliders, not snowplay] and costs increase directly in proportion to length. In simple terms a 60m slope will get about half the visitors of a 120m one. Ask the operators of Amneville which went broke about 6 weeks ago. Tokyo closed years ago despite being in the biggest city in the biggest ski market in the world [there were also some tech and energy cost issues too in the case of Tokyo].

Go much above 120-150m [though it depends a bit on width etc] and the user numbers graph still rises but much less steeply. However the other graph showing the costs of building and running the facility steepens markedly. To date no one has made the 'centre parcs' version of a snowdome stack up enough to start cutting turf, and lots have tried.

If we assume a ski/snowboard facility as opposed to a snowplay then there are [broadly] 3 models:

'Centre parcs'. A centre which has a snow facility as its hub/driver and relies on income from long stay secondary spend in hotels, restaurants etc. Not been successful anywhere and the closest to being built in the UK [Snoasis] is almost certainly a non starter.

'Shopping centre'. The Xscape centres are by far the most successful model by in effect building a shopping and leisure centre with a rather costly [ski slope] roof.

'Stand alone'. The stand alone will not generate enough income to survive. Think of Chill Factore, Manchester which has terrible financials, despite being at the junction of a chunk of motorways in an area way wealthier than the NE.

Accounts have just been filed for the year to October 31, 2009 which showed a marginal growth in sales to £7.5m (2008: £7.4m) but continuing pre-tax losses of £1.1m. Its net debt increased by £1.2m to £33.9m and its liabilities outweighed its assets by more than £14m.

Mr Evans, who joined Chill Factore in 2008, said that Chill Factore's parent company still enjoyed the support of its bank, RBS - to whom it owes more than £25m.
If Trafford Park with an easy 6 mil+ catchment without even trying, isn t profitable then the lil' old North east with a best case 2.56mil won t support it 'nuff said. Glasgow does work with a smaller catchment than Trafford Park but the central belt has a much higher skier density than the rest of the UK - it's a very different market.

The only way this might get built is with big local authority input [and given the current climate I d be stunned]. Five years ago a an odd deal where land was given for the facility plus other land and consent to build [say] flats might have flown, but not right now.

It might be possible to make a small, primarily snow play facility work, with a focus on tubing, snowplay etc, perhaps with introductions to ski and snowboarding [novice lessons are very profitable].

As far as a 'ski slope' goes, unless they can find a way of making snow out of sweetie wrappers [or similar] it s a non starter.

I see lots of rather beautifully drafted proposals like this; they very rarely happen. They are often used as a phase two taster. Get planning consent for the whole site, shunt the snowdome into phase two, kick into long grass blaming economic conditions.

*I accept that it's harder to measure the castleford effect but it s certainly the case that you can't count on people from their catchment coming - you'll get way fewer than if Castleford wasn't there.
 
#9 ·
Welcome to the forum - it's going to be handy I think that you're in Middlehaven a lot. I keep hoping we'll hear more "Urban Pioneers" announcements - small scale developments - which seem to have gone quiet. I think we're all hoping they'll break ground on the snow centre before too long.

I think if the college developed more residential courses - needed student accommodation - it would really help the development. Don't know if they will?

Thank you, I'm excited to see the area develop. I can already tell I'm going to enjoy it here.
 
#11 ·
#12 · (Edited)
Delighted to see this approved and pleased to see the tight timescales for the build. It will be a huge step forwards for our area in terms of attracting visitors from further afield!
I received this press release today:

WINNING BID TO SEE ICE FACTOR GROUP EXPAND INTO
ENGLISH SNOWDOME MARKET

The owner of Scotland’s only indoor snow sports facility has further underlined its expertise in the adventure tourism market after winning a bid to operate a new £30 million indoor snow dome planned for Middlesbrough in NE England.

Ice Factor Group, the independent owner of Snow Factor Braehead to the west of Glasgow and also of Ice Factor Kinlochleven, the world’s largest indoor ice climbing facility (20 miles south of Fort William) has been chosen by Teesside based Cool Runnings (NE) Ltd as the operator of the new snowdome.

On Friday (31 March), the long anticipated development received planning approval from Middlesbrough Council. Operation of the facility could potentially generate Ice Factor Group over £5m in additional annual revenues.

To be located on a seven-acre site in Middlehaven and scheduled to open at the earliest by 2019/2020, the giant snowdome is expected to incorporate a ski / snowboard slope, ice-climbing walls and ice-bar. It’s part of a major tourism attraction and regeneration project for the former industrial area for which iconic futuristic architect Will Alsop has created a compelling vision. The £500m plan has the backing of the UK Government’s regeneration agency, English Partnerships and One North East. Ice Factor Group will operate the snow facility on a long lease.

Jamie Smith, the mountaineer and entrepreneur who opened Ice Factor Kinlochleven in 2003 and acquired Snow Factor Braehead in 2011, believes his team’s successful bid to operate for the first time outside Scotland underlines the strength of his business model. Said Smith: “Ice Factor Group is really pleased to be confirmed as the operator of the Middlehaven facility. As a near identical set-up to our Scottish operations, it’s a development that will benefit from all of the finely tuned and proven business processes that we’ve put in place over six years of trading at Snow Factor Braehead.

“I’m proud of our track record. When we acquired the Braehead site, it had accumulated several million pounds of losses. Our expertise has helped to transform the Snow Factor Braehead business from one of the worst performing indoor snow resorts in Europe to one of the best.

“It is also encouraging that in addition to our successful bid to operate in Middlehaven, Ice Factor Group is continuing to receive serious enquiries from developers throughout Europe and further afield, seeking to apply our expertise to maximize the footfall and operational efficiency of new build and existing snowdomes.”

Employing 137 staff, Snow Factor Braehead has thrived on its ability to give winter sport enthusiasts of all ages and ability the chance to have fun and learn / hone their skiing, snowboarding and ice-climbing skills year-round on real snow.

The facility, named Best Family Day Out at the 2016 Scottish Entertainment & Hospitality Awards, includes a 168m long main and 50m long teaching slope, four tows, ice-climbing walls, a pool of qualified ski / snowboard instructors, Scotland’s only permanent ice bar and a Bavarian styled Bier Halle and Restaurant.

Smith, who notes over 70,000 customers purchased a lift pass for Snow Factor Braehead last year and over 40,000 learned how to ski or board, believes the continued success of his Scottish operations and plans for a further operation in England, highlights the enduring and growing appeal of the adventure sports market.

“A decade ago, skiing and snowboarding indoors on real snow was possibly perceived by many as a gimmick. Today I believe Snow Factor Braehead is increasingly recognized as a significant Scottish snowsports destination and player in our strong adventure tourism sector.

“Year round, we are giving tens of thousands of people the opportunity to enjoy the thrill and fun of snow-sports and we now look forward to delivering similar success in England.”
Per previous postings, this is a field I know very well and the facility is not sustainable unless there is significant external funding* [council, planning gain from land perhaps]. There is not a large enough population within the drive circle to make this viable.

I'd love it to happen as even if we set to one side the sporting merits I, or colleagues would be likely to make a buck but.....

Planning is not funding and before getting too enthusiastic the real questions are if funding is in place. Cool Runnings is a dormant company with one director set up in 2014. The associated companies show one with a balance sheet in the red [circa 350k in assets but greater liabilities], the only other company in the loop is run by the father of the sole director of Cool Runnings and whilst its returns show it's doing 'ok', it;s nowhere close to the having the 30mil+ needed to make this fly.

'Professionally' I have quite a lot of non public domain information on the project and I ll start to take it seriously when they start digging holes.

To stress I would like it to happen but I don't believe it will as presented [sorry].

*I don't mean investment, I mean the sort of funding you don't have to pay back. Build it and you have have that plot of land to build 500 houses and we'll give you an easy ride on planning.
 
#18 ·
Sorry to be doom and gloom as it would be great if it happened but if the Sunderland project wasn't viable then this being located so much closer to Castleford Xscape makes it even less viable? Has to be just over an hour from boro to there as it's only a hour and 45 on the weekend from Sunderland.
 
#19 ·
It's a redundant argument, though.

From Sunderland city centre to Castleford is nearly 95 miles, that's 1 hour and 40 minutes in a car on a good day, that's £16 in petrol. It's nearly three hours on a train that'll cost you anywhere from £30 to £50. And if we're talking buses, we're talking five changes over eight hours. Logically, the only ways to get from Sunderland to Castleford are train or car.

From Middlesbrough city centre to Castleford is 70 miles, that's 1 hour and 10 minutes in a car, on a good day, that's £12 in petrol. It's 2 hours on a train at £40, with one change. And if we're talking buses, we're talking six changes over six hours. Logically, the only ways to get from Middlesbrough to Castleford are train or car.

Let's look at the options. You can spend over two hours in a car at a cost of £32 in petrol plus £23 for an hour's trip on the slopes (Castleford's prices). Or you can spend six hours on a train costing you £100 plus £23 for an hour's trip on the slopes.

It's obvious that only 10 to 20 percent of the users of a snow centre would have regular access to or own a car, therefore, the only option for the people of Sunderland to go to a snow centre would be a train, thus proving the viability of the Sunderland snow centre had nothing to do with the closeness of Castleford. It's too far away for it to be an issue. Plus, with Newcastle literally 10 minutes up the road, it makes next to no sense to plonk a huge snow centre on its door rather than in the living room. It's like being given an option to build a snow centre at the heart of London or Watford and you choose Watford...

Now let's look at Middlesbrough. Two hours in a car at a cost £24 in petrol or four hours on a train at £80. Middlesbrough has a population of over 150,000 people, all with access to the city centre at a cost of £2.50 on a bus. Given the option of £103 to Castleford (train + 1 hour on the slopes) or £28 to Middlesbrough (day pass + 1 hour on the slopes), which do you think they're gonna go for? Not to mention the fact that 700,000 people live within 30 minutes of the new snow centre at Middlesbrough. 30 minutes in a car is lot cheaper than the trip to Castleford, plus you can travel almost anywhere in Teesside with a £5 day pass on Stagecoach, only a little more to get to Hartlepool.

This is an impoverished area; people always choose the cheapest option because if you don't, you won't have dinner for a few days. You are building a snow centre for 700,000 people that cannot get to Castleford.

It's a no brainer in terms of viability, plus, there's a real health boost going on in Teesside at the moment with all kinds of sporting facilities proving extremely popular.

Just look at the thousands of school children using MSV. All those schools will, most certainly, be taking their kids to the snow centre because, trust me, when I was in school, the farthest we could afford to travel to was Darlington. Once. In six years.

I think MSC should flourish...
 
#20 · (Edited)
Great post but not sure where youve got your facts and figures from, to make a snow centre viable I'm sure there is a requirement to have approx 4m residents within a hour and a half drive or somthing to that effect, it's all on the Sunderland stadium village thread and is totally applicable as it's what's required to make any snowcentre viable regardless of its location. If only 10-20% of users travelled there in their car how would they get their equipment there? At castleford there is something like 2000 parking spaces if I remember correctly so I'd imagine it's much higher than 10-20%.

Newcastle pubs was immensely informative on the stadium village thread as he will probably be on here now but I'd have a look at that thread over on the Sunderland forum and start at the beginning as there's hords of info on there, sadly it's all pie in the sky!

EDIT: just read post number 4 from NP!
 
#22 ·
I think it's safe to assume that the snow centre will offer patrons skiing equipment, much like with bowling alleys...

Middlesbrough is a student city, first and foremost. The developers have said that they expect most of the traffic to be footfall from the 20,000+ students that Teesside University has and the 10,000+ students the huge college next door has. Not to mention the 10,000+ the new city centre CCAD College will have, only minutes away. On top of that, the council is improving the surrounding road network, plus a new bridge, and bus operators are in talks to provide links to the new centre, so yes, the developers most certainly believe footfall from pedestrians will be the main users of the centre. Remember, the train station is minutes away as will be the new bus station.

We have to remember that the developers have clearly stated that the main slopes, the main attraction for the centre, will not allow under 18s, so I'm fairly sure the majority of users will be that 18 to 40 bracket out for a day of fun on the slopes. The hardcore sports enthusiasts who own their own skiing equipment will only make up a small number of the patrons.

Middlesbrough is a working class town and the centre's operators have said time and time again that we will not be priced out of it. The working classes, that bracket of 18 to 40, mostly will not own a vehicle and indeed, the tiny car park out the back of the centre testifies to that fact, probably mainly used by the workers.

Families will be restricted to the junior slopes, by far not the main attraction here. It will be used almost exclusively by the working classes as it is just a bit of fun. The developers have said time and time again, students will get discounts as will schools.

You've gotta remember, this centre will have four slopes, two junior and two adult. All considerably larger than that on offer at Castleford. It will have more attractions, too, with a skydiving arena, trampoline park, ice climbing walls, regular climbing walls, a soft play area, an ice bar, and over 10 restaurants and the like. At best, this centre will turn over £6 million a year, especially considering the eateries will be high end and extremely posh (like Hudson on the other side of the dock), but the thing about Middlesbrough is that we always operate at a loss.

If we don't take gambles and risks, the town stagnates and falters. We have to take the risks to generate the income. Just look at the Middlesbrough Institute of Modern Art. It operated at an eye-watering loss for the first seven to eight years of its life, only breaking even in recent years and only in the last year or two started making a profit. The snow centre will be no different. It'll operate at a loss for a few years but if they hit that multi-million pound turnover that the developers themselves have said they're aiming for, it'll be making a profit within a decade. It's an investment, not a golden duck with promises of million pound golden eggs for generations to come.

You also have to consider the wider impact of this development. It will increase foot traffic into Middlehaven, a largely empty area. Developers will look at plots of land and the huge snow centre nearby and think, 'Hey! If I built an apartment block, I bet quite a few of the patrons of that snow centre will buy one!' And they will! But they'll need a supermarket next door. And a post office. And then some other developer will come along and build his own apartment block to compete with the other one. It could have a snowball effect.

It's a gamble, but providing the Teesside and Tees Valley conurbation with a facility better in every single regard than the one at Castleford at a much better price and considerably closer, is a risk worth taking.

It could be a white elephant, but in life, if you don't throw the dice you'll be that poor sap standing in the sidelines watching the entire world flourish whilst you wither and wilt away...

90% of Middlesbrough and the wider area is working class, and believe me, I grew up in one of those areas. The developers have no choice but to make this for the people otherwise it will fail.
 
#23 ·
I think it's safe to assume that the snow centre will offer patrons skiing equipment, much like with bowling alleys...
Yes they will, it will be at an additional cost

Middlesbrough is a student city, first and foremost. The developers have said that they expect most of the traffic to be footfall from the 20,000+ students that Teesside University has and the 10,000+ students the huge college next door has. Not to mention the 10,000+ the new city centre CCAD College will have, only minutes away. On top of that, the council is improving the surrounding road network, plus a new bridge, and bus operators are in talks to provide links to the new centre, so yes, the developers most certainly believe footfall from pedestrians will be the main users of the centre. Remember, the train station is minutes away as will be the new bus station.
Snow centre clients do not in the main use public transport to access the facilities. If they really imagine that they are going to reinvent the demographics of the sport then I wish them luck and hope they can but....

We have to remember that the developers have clearly stated that the main slopes, the main attraction for the centre, will not allow under 18s, so I'm fairly sure the majority of users will be that 18 to 40 bracket out for a day of fun on the slopes. The hardcore sports enthusiasts who own their own skiing equipment will only make up a small number of the patrons.
If they don't allow skiers <18 to use the slope [I assume they mean unsupervised] they will go bust. A sizeable % of skiers at indoor snow centres are enthusiasts, partly because of the high cost per hour.

Middlesbrough is a working class town and the centre's operators have said time and time again that we will not be priced out of it. The working classes, that bracket of 18 to 40, mostly will not own a vehicle and indeed, the tiny car park out the back of the centre testifies to that fact, probably mainly used by the workers.
These projects cost circa £30 mil upwards, I am involved with one that is costing close to €500mil. The snowsports capacity [depends a bit on length and balance of use, width etc etc] but it's likely to be no more than 200 on the snow side at any one time. That, combined with energy cost etc means you have a rate per hour you have to charge.

Families will be restricted to the junior slopes, by far not the main attraction here. It will be used almost exclusively by the working classes as it is just a bit of fun. The developers have said time and time again, students will get discounts as will schools.
Families, whatever the developer says won't and can't be restricted to nursery slopes, if they are it will be a 'brave' new business model never before tried in the last 100+ years of skiing [indoor and out]. They will use yield and demand management dato to offer discounts but this will not be £5 an hour - look at what other similar slopes charge

You've gotta remember, this centre will have four slopes, two junior and two adult. All considerably larger than that on offer at Castleford. It will have more attractions, too, with a skydiving arena, trampoline park, ice climbing walls, regular climbing walls, a soft play area, an ice bar, and over 10 restaurants and the like. At best, this centre will turn over £6 million a year, especially considering the eateries will be high end and extremely posh (like Hudson on the other side of the dock), but the thing about Middlesbrough is that we always operate at a loss.
I'm not sure they are massively bigger than Castleford, though with any sence they will focus on wdth, not length as that maximises income. Speak to any indoor slope developer [and I do, regularly] ask them what thy would do differently and they almost invariably say shorter, flatter, wider.

If we don't take gambles and risks, the town stagnates and falters. We have to take the risks to generate the income. Just look at the Middlesbrough Institute of Modern Art. It operated at an eye-watering loss for the first seven to eight years of its life, only breaking even in recent years and only in the last year or two started making a profit. The snow centre will be no different. It'll operate at a loss for a few years but if they hit that multi-million pound turnover that the developers themselves have said they're aiming for, it'll be making a profit within a decade. It's an investment, not a golden duck with promises of million pound golden eggs for generations to come.

You also have to consider the wider impact of this development. It will increase foot traffic into Middlehaven, a largely empty area. Developers will look at plots of land and the huge snow centre nearby and think, 'Hey! If I built an apartment block, I bet quite a few of the patrons of that snow centre will buy one!' And they will! But they'll need a supermarket next door. And a post office. And then some other developer will come along and build his own apartment block to compete with the other one. It could have a snowball effect.

It's a gamble, but providing the Teesside and Tees Valley conurbation with a facility better in every single regard than the one at Castleford at a much better price and considerably closer, is a risk worth taking.

It could be a white elephant, but in life, if you don't throw the dice you'll be that poor sap standing in the sidelines watching the entire world flourish whilst you wither and wilt away...

90% of Middlesbrough and the wider area is working class, and believe me, I grew up in one of those areas. The developers have no choice but to make this for the people otherwise it will fail.
It might work but looking at the current marketplace it will be significantly riskier and any real snow indoor centre built in the UK to date [and to my direct knowledge only one of them is making 'real' money - - Hemel if you re curious]
 
#26 ·
Newcastlepubs - why do you think the developer is building this project and what will be the commercial model for the operator do you think?

In terms of Middlehaven I think many of us are excited by this but speaking for myself I just don't have your industry information.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I have some information that I can t share here in detail. I can say that one person 'closely involved' with the developers is a skiing enthusiast [which is not always a good thing when you look at projects from a purely commercial perspective]

I ve no doubt that the plan is for the development to make money, but on every 'test' that I apply leaves me wondering what the actual plan is.

For all sorts of reasons given here [and on a previous failed attempt in Sunderland] Middlesboro' doesn't have the catchment to make this fly in the format suggested, nor does Newcastle [and I was also well paid to look at various proposals there, and Gateshead..].

There might be some planning gain deals going on that are not in the public domain, but on the information I have been supplied with so far they are relying on 'bums on seats' and that's not going to work.

I love enthusiasm and I have it in bucket loads regarding my home city but facts are facts and as stated this is no more viable (no matter which way it's looked at geographically) than any other proposal brought forward to date. As you've said If they're going to pump £30m into it then it needs to be a success, the question that then comes is where is the finance coming from as the company isn't exactly established or cash rich?

It's also important to note that students pay a heavily discounted rate, I'm sure I remember it was around £30 per day at Castleford so they generate much less income than families etc.
I would be asking:

1. Is the developer putting their own £30 mil into this [they are not]
2. Do they have the funds in place?
3. Who are the funders for this and/or who do the developers see as funders?

Assuming that it is city and VCs then they won't be wearing rose tinted specs, they will be hardnosed in their calculations.

The local council will be ecstatic that there is a landmark proposal as it makes the Middlehaven redevelopment much more interesting than [no disrespect] brownfield site gets new lease of life, but soon the developers will be at the point where they need to attract investors and that is not going to be easy.

I d probably conclude and say forget my postings.. check out google for snowdome proposals that have not happened, there are lots and many/most are in territory more fruitful than the NE. Oh and remember Dalton Park...a better site. It s common to see a proposal like this attached to a large development [usually leisure and retail, sometimes with housing] as a hook to pull other tenants. Then people start looking at hard numbers and it then gets gently moved into 'phase 2'.

By all means be excited but ask hard questions, investors will..
 
#27 ·
Nail on head.

Most of what I've said has come directly from the developers. There is absolutely no way they would pump £30 million into a project such as this, in a town such as Middlesbrough instead of a city like Newcastle, if their motivations weren't altruistic. Time and time again they've said they're doing this to benefit Middlesbrough and the wider community, and to kickstart a regeneration boom in Middlehaven. I know they're the 100th company to say that they're gonna do that, but there's real hope for optimism here.

They want to make a profit. They will. It's as simple as that. It might take 'em a decade, as with MIMA, but there's no reason they shouldn't at least give it a go.

It might be a gamble but if you don't take a risk, you don't get anywhere in life. And the developers clearly feel it's a risk worth taking.

Only time will tell if it's a success.
 
#29 ·
It's good to know your data is well sourced HC. I'm very conscious that everyone with Boro at heart almost desperately wants this to be a success. I know we're all still trying to be objective.

I don't think private capital has ever come easy - certainly not in my lifetime. I know it's an assumption but I can only assume the investors have worked out the business case with care. I'm hoping that's not wishful thinking but it seems a lot to risk without a robust plan.
 
#28 ·
I love enthusiasm and I have it in bucket loads regarding my home city but facts are facts and as stated this is no more viable (no matter which way it's looked at geographically) than any other proposal brought forward to date. As you've said If they're going to pump £30m into it then it needs to be a success, the question that then comes is where is the finance coming from as the company isn't exactly established or cash rich?

It's also important to note that students pay a heavily discounted rate, I'm sure I remember it was around £30 per day at Castleford so they generate much less income than families etc.
 
#30 ·
Sup Sup - Cards on the table - I really want this project to be a success. But at the same time my questions are genuine and not meant to be leading in any way....

What do you feel is in it for the investors? Boro has had public money for projects, but has found private investment hard to attract (outside of university accommodation) so what's driving this project do you think?
 
#34 ·
Update. In my inbox this morning:
MILLIONS of new visitors and hundreds of new jobs – Middlesbrough’s snow centre development is set to help transform the town’s city ambitions into a reality.

The £30m Middlehaven development – the work of private Teesside company Cool Runnings (NE) Ltd - recently received unanimous backing from Middlesbrough Council’s planning committee allowing it to take a major step forward.

Rachael Howson, of Cool Runnings (NE) Ltd, said: “We are delighted that planning permission has been approved and would like to thank everyone who has worked on the proposals so far. We are extremely excited to be moving into the next stage of the development process and we are aiming for an opening date of September 2019.”

It is estimated that when up and running the snow centre could attract 2.25m visitors a year and will create 350 jobs.

Middlesbrough Council has recently unveiled its own plans to invest £74m in order to attract up to £700m of private sector investment and create thousands of new jobs and new homes with the ultimate aim of cementing Middlesbrough’s place as the city centre of a prosperous Tees Valley region.

The snow centre’s place within Middlesbrough’s wider regeneration has been welcomed across the town with Cool Runnings themselves pointing to “massive spin-off benefits”.

Speaking to Love middlesbrough, Middlesbrough College Principal Zoe Lewis said: “Middlesbrough College is very excited about this development and the huge possibilities it affords Middlehaven and the wider Tees Valley. We have worked closely with the developers to maximise the benefits of the site and the co-location next to the College and its 15,000 students and 1000 staff. I know our students are extremely excited for it to open and I have no doubt it will attract visitors from far and wide and bring in further investment into what is fast becoming a leading education and leisure destination.”

Damon Roberts, General Manager of Middlesbrough’s Jurys Inn, said: “I think it’s very positive for the town. It should bring much needed leisure business, bringing people in from outside the region. We would expect some of those would want to stay overnight. It also helps Middlehaven and keeps that moving forward.”

Carli-Jayne McNaught, owner of the Olde Young Tea House on Grange Road and Hit The Bar on Bridge Street East, said: “There’s nothing like that around so for our area to get it is great and it’s the perfect place to put it. I want to see that area on the up because it’s really nice up there. I think it will absolutely boom in the next few years, that’s why we wanted to be there with Hit The Bar – there’s loads of scope over that side of town.”
Stephen Brown, Senior Partner at Middlesbrough-based commercial property consultants Dodds Brown, said: “The approval of the snow dome is fantastic news and will prove to be not only a catalyst for development within the Middlehaven project but also in the wider area. It clearly demonstrates the ambition of Middlesbrough Council and their determination to bring investment to the area. I cannot wait to give it a go!”

Soon after the planning application was approved it was announced that Ice Factor Group who run two successful snow centres in Scotland, were in talks to become the operators of the Middlehaven facility.

Jamie Smith, the mountaineer and entrepreneur who opened Ice Factor Kinlochleven in 2003 and acquired Snow Factor Braehead in 2011, believes his team’s successful bid to operate for the first time outside Scotland underlines the strength of his business model.

He said: “As a near identical set-up to our Scottish operations, it’s a development that will benefit from all of the finely tuned and proven business processes that we’ve put in place over six years of trading at Snow Factor Braehead.

“A decade ago, skiing and snowboarding indoors on real snow was possibly perceived by many as a gimmick. Today I believe Snow Factor Braehead is increasingly recognised as a significant Scottish snowsports destination and player in our strong adventure tourism sector.

“Year round, we are giving tens of thousands of people the opportunity to enjoy the thrill and fun of snow-sports and we now look forward to delivering similar success in England.”
 
#36 ·
I feel like that a lot of the time but fingers crossed. I know some posters threw doubt on the economics, but this project is so transformational I hope a way is found.

I got to the Boro v Augsburg game and the program has a section saying it will be 48 weeks for the new bridge to be constructed. I think they construct this before starting on the snow centre - so we might need to be a bit patient yet.
 
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