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Old July 15th, 2019, 12:35 AM   #4141
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Lots of talk about lack of rolling stock. Is the substantial number of new trains ordered already then?
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Old July 15th, 2019, 01:04 AM   #4142
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Lots of talk about lack of rolling stock. Is the substantial number of new trains ordered already then?
It has been tendered, but not awarded yet.

If I remember correctly, it was over 30 new trains.

Some will be standard gauge only, others will be dual gauge. Top speed required, 330km/h.

Aside from that, new locos have been tendered too, with the goal of recycling certain Talgo trainsets that are now unused or underused (and which will need a retrofit).
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Old July 15th, 2019, 01:25 PM   #4143
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As for now, yes. There is an important lack of rolling stock, so running extra trains is difficult.

That said, the new high speed services to Granada are doing very well, particularly the Barcelona-Granada and vv ones.

I agree with the first part of the sentence (September services to Malaga/Seville), but the second part (reorganisation of services to Madrid and Barcelona) I haven't heard of.
Can you link a source to that?
Is rolling stock is used efficiently in Spain? In any case, if they had enough high speed EMUs, it would be nice to organise a very frequent Granada-Seville service. I am talking about a train every 30' during the day and every 15' at peak hours. Those trains would serve many large towns along the way and connect with any long distance AVE service at Antequera. This scheme would provide much more long distance options for Granada, albeit with a transfer, and revolutionise regional transportation across Andalusia. It would also make an expensive infrastructure a lot more useful.

And please don't tell me that Cordoba-Seville is congested: LZB must allow for a train every 5' at the very least.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 01:33 PM   #4144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think Spain built its HSR network at 1/3 of Italian prices per km of new infrastructure.
Bearing in mind that in the French and Italian cases they have not taken into account the most expensive tunnels... approximately 1/3.


The European aid has been essential for high speed, otherwise we would only have one long-distance train per destination, empty and losing a lot of money.


Speaking of money, I will explain later because it is complex, but the operation of high-speed trains in Spain earns money if capital amortisation and interest are not taken into account. From the Court of Auditors:
Quote:
In 2017 64.7% of the HSR were profitable, while only 19.5% of the conventional long distance services had a positive result.
The contracts awarded and already in execution for new HS trains are:

15 S-106 Talgo 330 kmh fixed gauge (10 prepared for France)
15 S-122 Talgo 330 / 330 kmh variable gauge
13 S107 Talgo 330 / 330 kmh variable gauge (renovated from the current train hotel 220 kmh)

Now there are 227 trains for more than 240 kmh.

All of them announced for 2020 but I don't think they are even finished; hopefully they will enter commercial service in 2021.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 05:37 PM   #4145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think Spain built its HSR network at 1/3 of Italian prices per km of new infrastructure.
I do not know data but I have read the most expensive part is when crossing city areas. If is a motorway, they avoid them. If it is a railway, they must approach to city centre. Thus the most expensive part of any project are those few kilometres inside a city.

That's why nowadays there aren't so many tunnels in new stations.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 07:17 PM   #4146
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Aside from that, new locos have been tendered too, with the goal of recycling certain Talgo trainsets that are now unused or underused (and which will need a retrofit).
Are really all S252 loco's fully used on these kinds of services ? I know that most of them have broad gauge bogies and therefore can't be used on the HSLs, but it seems certain sub-series are able to swap bogies and therefore can be made to run under standard guage.

If so, then an order of Vectrons or Stadler stuff may be needed. Unless they want backward-compatible fixed-length trainsets, then Talgo powercars are the only option.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 08:00 PM   #4147
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So building HSL is just a political decision, which can be understantable as the old lines are really slow and could not attract much passenegrs anyway.
But do really all lines need to be at HSR standard (i.e. 250+ km/h design speed) ? Many lines in Europe have the same problem (slow because of capacity issues or difficult tracing), but not all are replaced or improved by constructing a full-blown HSL..

In that respect, countries like Denmark are setting the example: build a new classic line for 200 km/h running to replace or free capacity on the old line. In most cases such line can also be used by conventional trains instead of having to use purpose-built HSR stock, and travel times are broadly comparable with full HSR on < 300 km runs with multiple stops. Added bonus is a much lower construction and maintenance cost, plus lower operating standard (no need for crazy <17t axle-load limit, no eddy-current brake needed etc).

The case for HSR only improves on 300+ km non-stop runs, but except for France and some specific corridors in Germany, Italy and Spain this doesn't make sense in most of Europe where each medium-sized city wants its direct TGV/ICE/AVE stop.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 08:08 PM   #4148
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
So building HSL is just a political decision, which can be understantable as the old lines are really slow and could not attract much passenegrs anyway.
But do really all lines need to be at HSR standard (i.e. 250+ km/h design speed) ? Many lines in Europe have the same problem (slow because of capacity issues or difficult tracing), but not all are replaced or improved by constructing a full-blown HSL..

In that respect, countries like Denmark are setting the example: build a new classic line for 200 km/h running to replace or free capacity on the old line. In most cases such line can also be used by conventional trains instead of having to use purpose-built HSR stock, and travel times are broadly comparable with full HSR on < 300 km runs with multiple stops. Added bonus is a much lower construction and maintenance cost, plus lower operating standard (no need for crazy <17t axle-load limit, no eddy-current brake needed etc).

The case for HSR only improves on 300+ km non-stop runs, but except for France and some specific corridors in Germany, Italy and Spain this doesn't make sense in most of Europe where each medium-sized city wants its direct TGV/ICE/AVE stop.
The geometric profile of most legacy Spanish railways was bad to begin with. The terrain did not help either. Distances in Spain are longer than in Denmark or Germany. Construction costs are lower. In that context, it makes sense to build brand new high speed lines instead of making haphazard upgrades on legacy lines. And since one is building brand new lines, it makes sense to do so at full specs.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 08:39 PM   #4149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btrs View Post
In that respect, countries like Denmark are setting the example: build a new classic line for 200 km/h running to replace or free capacity on the old line. In most cases such line can also be used by conventional trains instead of having to use purpose-built HSR stock, and travel times are broadly comparable with full HSR on < 300 km runs with multiple stops. Added bonus is a much lower construction and maintenance cost, plus lower operating standard (no need for crazy <17t axle-load limit, no eddy-current brake needed etc).
Just a small correction: not all HSR require purpose-built rolling stock. In Italy eddy-current brakes are not allowed at all, and since years every new (major) line is built with 22,5t axle-load (UIC60 rails) regardless of it being HS or not. Therefore the only technical requirements to run on Italian high-speed lines are ERTMS L2 and 25 kV AC capabilities, which is something that some regions are starting to plan for part of their fleet (e.g. Sudtirol, Tuscany). ETCS/ERTMS is becoming the standard anyways, and 25 kV is just an additional option when ordering a modern engine or EMU.

Of course a high-speed line would see a dramatic drop in capacity if heavily used by regional or freight trains, and the infrastructure owner is not so eager to go in this direction; plus you are right about maintenance costs and the general analysis. I just wanted to point out that a high-speed line is not necessarily a closed system requiring special rolling stock. To my knowledge only the French system was built with steep slopes that pose heavy constraints to the weight and acceleration of the trains.
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Old July 16th, 2019, 11:49 AM   #4150
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Quote:
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The case for HSR only improves on 300+ km non-stop runs, but except for France and some specific corridors in Germany, Italy and Spain this doesn't make sense in most of Europe where each medium-sized city wants its direct TGV/ICE/AVE stop.
Take a look at a map of Spain, there are huge distances between many of the main cities. The nearest large city to Madrid is Valladolid, and that's 160km away. In other directions it's even further. Spain needs faster trains much more than more densely populated countries as the settlement pattern is quite different - most of the middle is empty, with the population around the coasts.
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Old July 16th, 2019, 11:52 AM   #4151
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The case for HSR only improves on 300+ km non-stop runs, but except for France and some specific corridors in Germany, Italy and Spain this doesn't make sense in most of Europe where each medium-sized city wants its direct TGV/ICE/AVE stop.
Take a look at a map of Spain, there are huge distances between many of the main cities. The nearest large city to Madrid is Valladolid, and that's 160km away. In other directions it's even further. Spain needs faster trains much more than more densely populated countries as the settlement pattern is quite different - most of the middle is empty, with the population around the coasts.

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Old July 16th, 2019, 11:58 AM   #4152
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Quote:
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The geometric profile of most legacy Spanish railways was bad to begin with. The terrain did not help either. Distances in Spain are longer than in Denmark or Germany. Construction costs are lower. In that context, it makes sense to build brand new high speed lines instead of making haphazard upgrades on legacy lines. And since one is building brand new lines, it makes sense to do so at full specs.
Agree, but I think RENFE is not using this wonderful infrastructure at its full potential, and by a long way. Basically, HSR is used in Spain as a substitute for air travel (or rail travel over the traditional line for Madrid-Valencia). There are some exceptions (i.e. Madrid-Zaragoza), and some induced demand, but this is the rule for most corridors. It probably made sense to substitute air travel in the Madrid to Barcelona corridor as the airports at both ends need capacity for international flights. Not in other cases.

RENFE or other operators should go much farther and use the network for regional travel in areas of high population density such as Andalusia, Catalonia, Galicia or the coastal strip of Valencia. There are many large towns in these areas currently underserved by just a handful of trains going only to Madrid. Passenger number can and should increase dramatically.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 09:05 PM   #4153
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It shows the start of tests on the section between Zamora and Pedralba, which will be the next to open on this line.
]
Is that the Seneca trainset?
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Old July 18th, 2019, 07:59 PM   #4154
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Is that the Seneca trainset?
No, that's the Talgo BT.
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Old July 19th, 2019, 11:15 PM   #4155
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It has been tendered, but not awarded yet.

If I remember correctly, it was over 30 new trains.

Some will be standard gauge only, others will be dual gauge. Top speed required, 330km/h.
Do you mean the 30 Talgo AVRIL ordered in 2016-2017, of which the first units should be delivered next year ?
https://www.talgo.com/en/communicati...-its-new-avri/
I haven't heard about another tender for high-speed stock from Renfe.
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Old July 21st, 2019, 11:23 PM   #4156
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That said, I suspect that a lot of these numbers you mention are "project car". You won't ever find such arguments against any road infrastructure. Only when it's trains.
There are worse examples within motorways.

The AP-41 is a tolled motorway which was built parallel to the toll free A-42 (which is also shorter than AP-41 for most destinations). Basically no section of AP-41 has more than 1.000 vehicles a day (usually a motorway is justified from around 25.000 vehicles a day).

And the nearby CM-43 is very likely also nearly empty.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/40.0252/-3.8856

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopista_Madrid-Toledo

Vera-Cartagena section of AP-7 also has very low traffic, I used it during holidays a decade ago, and sometimes there were minutes between vehicles in the other direction.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/37.4092/-1.6311

(on a side note, I was in one of the towns on the coast between Vera and Almeria: it had only a single bus trip per day to Almeria...)

******************

Wandering around AP-7 on OSM I found this tunnel, it doesn't seem to be of railway origin, anyone knows more?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.04520/-1.87528

https://www.google.ch/maps/place/Tan...5!4d-1.8808734
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Old July 21st, 2019, 11:44 PM   #4157
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About that tunnel, I bet it is for waters.

I have another example.

Look at the entrance of this tunnel

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50...8!4d-1.4144344

and exit

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50...8!4d-1.4144344

in the local tourism office they point it to know and they say it is possible to cross, providing it hasn't rained and it is 600ish m withouth light (straight on, you will see starting or end of tunnel and it is wide enough. I bet, two cars could cross inside)

Reason for that tunnel...
This is Daroca down gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1126...7i13312!8i6656

and upper gate
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1142...7i13312!8i6656

I have read it is the widest middle age street that remains as it was nowadays. Reason, it was so wide... because it is really a creek. When heavy raining all waters went through main street, thus so wide, thus down gate quite bigger than upper gate.

They had so many problems that they built that tunnel. It is just for storms, and nowadays, it remains operating. This is, any storm in the area will go through that tunnel.

Really.... it is so close to road (nowadays I cross via A-23, but I have crossed through that point for decades) and so unknown!!!!



BTW, Daroca HAD railway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1042...7i13312!8i6656

Santander-Mediterraneo company. Line Calatayud-Teruel-Sagunto
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Old July 29th, 2019, 08:01 PM   #4158
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News | High speed line Monforte del Cid-Murcia

Test runs have started.

On the images a class 100 AVE at Beniel station (Murcia, on the border with Alicante).

Images taken on July 24 at 09:00. There were also tests on July 18.

Looks like the section between Monforte del Cid junction and Orihuela station, including Elche AV station will open soon. No exact date yet.
The section between Orihuela and Murcia can't open yet as it's far from ready.

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All images by smontero.









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Old July 29th, 2019, 08:14 PM   #4159
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News | High speed line Murcia-Almeria

This picture is almost nothing apparently...

...but these are preliminary works on the section between Pulpi and Cuevas del Almanzora, in Almeria. They have recently started.

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Old August 1st, 2019, 12:15 AM   #4160
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SNCF and Alstom announced today an order for 12 additional TGV Euroduplex Océane (similar to the 55 ordered in 2013 and 2017, of which 40 are already in service) trainsets for delivery in 2020-2021.
https://railcolornews.com/2019/07/31...-speed-trains/
https://www.railjournal.com/passenge...duplex-trains/

In 2022, SNCF will thus have a total of 230 TGV Duplex trainsets (not including Ouigo which should then have 34 for low-cost services, and Lyria which will have 15 dedicated Euroduplex sets for services to Switzerland) and less than 85 single-deck sets (plus 26 used to Belgium and Switzerland).
At this moment, the first of the 100 new generation "TGV2020" will enter service.
This was posted in the thread dedicated to high speed rail in France. I'm wondering how many high speed trainsets (AVE + Alvia) are there in Spain. The network is longer in Spain, but I have a suspicion there are actually more trains in France. Am I right?
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