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Old July 17th, 2019, 03:54 PM   #5981
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Originally Posted by mmcd View Post
Lol, how you don't see the irony in your posts....
Hope you enjoyed your holiday, Mike. Shame it wasn't longer.

How's the seething obsession with Manchester going? How many times have you mentioned it in your posts today?
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Old July 17th, 2019, 05:05 PM   #5982
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I'd like to see a dramatic reversal of new towns with people going back to living in city boundaries. I see little point for example in Killingworth expanding so much when the rail line which passes beside it doesn't serve it.



Manchester on a map is scary to look at when I try to think just how much new transport infrastructure it needs to serve each and every part of its sprawl. I think in an ideal world the north would be full of near equal compact cities each clustered around transport hubs. Like the sort of city I'd expect to come across in the Netherlands. Cities that are compact enough to not need too much in the way of tram lines to serve all of its parts. Even more ideally with very little in the way of suburbs but instead a mix of land use throughout the metropolitan areas to discourage any one area from feeling isolated from the rest and the problems which come from that feeling of being cut off from the rest of the area.

Whilst the Netherlands might be the platonic ideal of what our cities should look like, the kind of reverse engineering necessary to achieve that isnít politically or economically feasible; all we can really do is encourage the right kind of growth going forward. Some of that will be bringing transport to housing, and some of it housing to transport. Itís not going to involve complete demolition of low density settlements.

Itís also worth remembering that a lot of our Ďsprawlí is quite old and has established infrastructure and communities. Greater Manchester for example sprawled out along its valleys, canals and railway lines in the 19th century and then filled in the gaps later. That doesnít mean that additional infrastructure isnít needed, but a lot of the cityís transport problems are a result of infrastructure poorly optimised for modern needs rather than its complete absence. Put bus lanes on major arterial roads and transform railway lines into light-rail metro and most of GM could have a minimal acceptable standard of rapid transit at relatively low cost. Obviously the minimum standard isnít what she should be aiming for, but itís probably the only feasible way of dealing with our lower density areas in the short-medium term. The Leigh busway shows what can be achieved in dispersed communities.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 06:33 PM   #5983
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Is there any other country where they've had a similar low density/urban sprawl problem and been able to overcome that to provide quality public transport? That light rail metro comment made me think of Kalrsruhe. I'm not sure if that is an appropriate example though? Closer to (my own) home I'm keen to see what solutions can be offered up for the North East's problems. I feel near certain that some sort of larger scale express light rail network might work best on routes outside of the current boundaries of the Tyne & Wear metro. On the Blyth & Tyne line for example. I'm not sure what speed would be required but I think there are light rail vehicles which can do 120 kph but for local lines being able to consistantly maintain 50-80 kph whilst by-passing traffic black spots would probbaly be enough.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 07:43 PM   #5984
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Is there any other country where they've had a similar low density/urban sprawl problem and been able to overcome that to provide quality public transport? That light rail metro comment made me think of Kalrsruhe. I'm not sure if that is an appropriate example though? Closer to (my own) home I'm keen to see what solutions can be offered up for the North East's problems. I feel near certain that some sort of larger scale express light rail network might work best on routes outside of the current boundaries of the Tyne & Wear metro. On the Blyth & Tyne line for example. I'm not sure what speed would be required but I think there are light rail vehicles which can do 120 kph but for local lines being able to consistantly maintain 50-80 kph whilst by-passing traffic black spots would probbaly be enough.
I'm not very familiar with the rail network around Newcastle, but TfGM appear to believe that a lot could be achieved with tram-trains in this part of the world. Current plans are for the existing passenger lines to Wigan, Warrington Central, Glossop, Marple, Hazel Grove, and between Stockport-Altrincham and Rochdale-Bury to be converted to light-rail vehicles running frequent services. Between this and NPR that would free up capacity through the city centre for more frequent services on the remaining local lines. In Merseyside it would probably make more sense to run additional local services onto Merseyrail tracks and in Newcastle similarly to make use of the Metro tunnels through the city centre, but I think in most of our cities a reasonable amount could be achieved making better use of our existing local rail (and road) infrastructure first.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 09:14 PM   #5985
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We could definitely do with making better use of the ECML through Durham and Northumberland. It passes near Ferryhill (population 8,942) and Spennymoor (20,503), Brandon (8,749), through Framwellgate Moor (6,112), Chester-Le-Street (24,227), Birtley (8,367) which is well placed to serve parts of Washington and as a park and ride for Stanley and Consett corridors, Team Valley which is well sited to serve parts of south Gateshead, Heaton/Coast Road east of Newcastle which is well sited to serve parts of North Tyneside, Killingworth (9,746), Cramlington (44,216) and Morpeth (14,017). Only Chester-Le-Street, Cramlington and Morpeth have stations and are served infrequently. If HS2 related ECML upgrades deliver anything of use to the region, allowing for a twice hourly Middlesbrough to Morpeth stopping service with a bunch of new stations would be very valuable. If passing loops are to be created between Northallerton and Durham then these would be a good place to add stations?
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Old July 18th, 2019, 01:43 AM   #5986
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Leeds is quite a big city without any suburban metro/tram, without any "urban"(local) stations (apart from Cross Gates). Probably Burley Park was the only new station to be opened on the Harrogate Line within the urban sprawl of inner Leeds and that was in the 80s. There are no former railway lines which pass through the suburbs which could be resurrected under light rail. Leeds have had numerous light rail bids (following road corridors) rejected by Central Government. During the late 90s Leeds opened a guided bus route to Alwoodley. I don't know if that succeeded or expanded since.

What can cities like Leeds which have companies quite well spread throughout the district do to improve their transport system? I know there's the inner ring road and the M621 loop but the roads are not adequate either. With HS2 and NPR coming, surely there should be something in place before then?

While Leeds will quite rightly rejoice getting the HS2 captive services, they're still way behind in their resolve to improve their internal transport issues.

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Old July 18th, 2019, 02:18 PM   #5987
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Hope you enjoyed your holiday, Mike. Shame it wasn't longer.

How's the seething obsession with Manchester going? How many times have you mentioned it in your posts today?
You brought it up this time

Deluge of rants and arguments taking over the thread in 3, 2, 1.....
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Old July 19th, 2019, 03:07 PM   #5988
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You brought it up this time

Deluge of rants and arguments taking over the thread in 3, 2, 1.....
Ha ha no rants. Just VDB being frightened of Liverpool talking itself up again. Silly.

Interesting read though on the thread over the last few days! The Liverpool threads are funnily enough discussing a similar topic about how to define Merseyrail so the vision for it's future is more coherent, how we more quickly re-open mothballed stations and lines.

I guess as each of the cities discussed on this thread are not within the M25 progress will be glacial for the most basic of transport needs.
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Old July 19th, 2019, 11:18 PM   #5989
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TFGM seems to be doing a good job with Metrolink....

Quote:
Study of light rail finds Manchester Metrolink one of best in the world

The system was rated as fifth best in the large cities category, scoring 66 out of 100 based on ten separate criteria.

These were tram corridor potential; speed and urban integration; multimodal integration; pricing and ticketing; use of resources; tram service offer; reliability, accessibility, security; tram ridership; tram economic viability and public transport dynamic.

Metrolink was praised for its off-peak frequency, pricing and ticketing, use of resources, economic balance and tram ridership dynamic.

The comparative study, which looked at 32 tram systems from across the World, was published by Eurogroup Consulting this week and identified several systems operated by Keolis among the best performing.
More here: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.co...-best-in-world
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Old July 20th, 2019, 12:02 AM   #5990
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Sorry I'm not finding a more appropriate thread, but a minor query:

I am stopping in Liverpool city centre overnight. Why is Moorfields station on the first floor?? You go up stairs, a ramp or an escalator, only to go down again.

Anyway, at least it is getting a new high-quality pavement frontage just now, with the road closed off. But it is a shame it couldn't have been built into the grand, still-retained frontage of Exchange station just up the road, or given a proper street entrance.

Just Treasury parsimony in the 1970s towards Liverpool, I suppose.
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Old July 20th, 2019, 09:17 AM   #5991
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Sorry I'm not finding a more appropriate thread, but a minor query:

I am stopping in Liverpool city centre overnight. Why is Moorfields station on the first floor?? You go up stairs, a ramp or an escalator, only to go down again.

Anyway, at least it is getting a new high-quality pavement frontage just now, with the road closed off. But it is a shame it couldn't have been built into the grand, still-retained frontage of Exchange station just up the road, or given a proper street entrance.

Just Treasury parsimony in the 1970s towards Liverpool, I suppose.
I could be wrong mate but I think there is some sort of electrical substation there what you go up over and down the other side of. Someone else may say something totally different though!
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Old July 20th, 2019, 11:38 AM   #5992
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Burnham calls for Manchester tube system as he blasts HS 'sprawl'

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ilway-for-city


http://noturningbacknpr.co.uk/wp-con...h-download.pdf
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Old July 20th, 2019, 03:09 PM   #5993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10 View Post
Sorry I'm not finding a more appropriate thread, but a minor query:

I am stopping in Liverpool city centre overnight. Why is Moorfields station on the first floor?? You go up stairs, a ramp or an escalator, only to go down again.

Anyway, at least it is getting a new high-quality pavement frontage just now, with the road closed off. But it is a shame it couldn't have been built into the grand, still-retained frontage of Exchange station just up the road, or given a proper street entrance.

Just Treasury parsimony in the 1970s towards Liverpool, I suppose.
It's a hangover from this.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...story-14077266
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Old July 20th, 2019, 03:38 PM   #5994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10 View Post
Sorry I'm not finding a more appropriate thread, but a minor query:

I am stopping in Liverpool city centre overnight. Why is Moorfields station on the first floor?? You go up stairs, a ramp or an escalator, only to go down again.

Anyway, at least it is getting a new high-quality pavement frontage just now, with the road closed off. But it is a shame it couldn't have been built into the grand, still-retained frontage of Exchange station just up the road, or given a proper street entrance.

Just Treasury parsimony in the 1970s towards Liverpool, I suppose.
You'll like this one. At the time - in common with a lot of other cities around the UK - Liverpool had grand plans for a series of major urban motorways and a car-centric city centre. Part of this was a proposal for "Streets in the Sky." The idea was to completely separate pedestrian traffic from vehicle traffic by creating a series of elevated walkways criss-crossing the entire city:



The design of Moorfields is a reflection of this. When constructed, it was supposed to plug into a network of above ground pedestrian walkways linking key parts of the city centre. Ultimately, this network of pedestrian sky streets was not constructed, so we are left with the utterly bizarre situation whereby one needs to go upstairs in order to access an underground metro station!

The Liverpool Echo did a decent article on it a while back:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...story-14077266

My understanding is that Lark Lane Red is correct about the presence of a substation, which has prevented this anomaly from being rectified during subsequent reconstruction.

Also, completely agree it should have been built into the retained frontage of the old Liverpool Exchange station on Tithebarn Street. My hope is that this can still happen one day. The Exchange site is one of the only places in Central Liverpool with potential space for 400m platforms capable of hosting captive HS2 units. It is my preferred site for a HS2/NPR terminus, given the availability of land, the proximity of the CBD and Liverpool Waters, and direct connections with both the Northern and Wirral lines, making for excellent onward public transport connections across the Liverpool City Region.

Moorfields has an entrance on Old Hall Street. It is liked to the main entrance by a pedestrian tunnel underneath Tithebarn Street. At its western end, it runs adjacent to the old Exchange Station frontage. If the Exchange site was ever reused for HS2/NPR, it would be relatively straightforward to plug the existing complex into a newly constructed terminus, which would probably incorporate the retained Exchange frontage.
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Old July 20th, 2019, 06:02 PM   #5995
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I can't see where HS2 is going to 'bulldoze through central Manchester' or how an above ground HS2/NPR station will turn “half of central Manchester into a railway station”? I definitely agree with the underground option and would like to see all HS2/NPR platforms in one subterranean complex (and larger scale all of Manchester's central railways sank). But there seems to be some pretty wild claims made there.

Cities such as Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Liverpool, etc should be allowed to ensure new lines work best for them and be able to raise funds to help pay for it. New underground lines and underground hub stations would be great for cities that have been made into inter-city dead ends whose future depends on linking to as many other cities as seamlessly as possible.
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Old July 21st, 2019, 09:51 PM   #5996
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The City of London tried similar "walkways in the sky", and there's an overlong documentary on Youtube or somewhere about their "pedways". Only the ones around the Barbican survive, I think.

I've 'done Liverpool' in a few spare hours this weekend.

I found the walkway under Churchill Way, and a Concrete Association Award plaque, dated 1971!

It is not obvious where they have put plastic netting under the flyovers to catch bits of concrete and where they have not, since it all looks the same.

Anyway, are there equivalent plans of say, Manchester and Leeds, where complete motorway ring roads were planned, that anyone wants to contribute?
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Old July 21st, 2019, 10:48 PM   #5997
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Northern considering options for more new trains
RailMagazine.com
15th July 2019

Quote:
As the first CAF Class 195 diesel and ‘331’ electric multiple units enter traffic with Northern, the operator is already discussing the possibility of ordering more new trains to meet a potential capacity challenge.

Senior Northern sources told RAIL on June 28 that the operator believes the new trains will entice more people onto its services, and that within two years - once all 101 new trains are in service - there could be overcrowding.

Asked by RAIL if it would be better to wait for the next Northern franchise before ordering new trains (it is due to begin in 2025), the source said: “Waiting for the new franchise would mean trains not entering traffic in 2028 or 2029.”
This is clearly nothing but excellent news!
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Old July 21st, 2019, 11:25 PM   #5998
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the 1970's built Skywalks in central Leeds went from Infirmary st. across Park Row/City Square to Mill Hill. They were demolished in the mid 1990's
https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/15519269195
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Old July 22nd, 2019, 12:57 AM   #5999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Furry Animal View Post
You'll like this one. At the time - in common with a lot of other cities around the UK - Liverpool had grand plans for a series of major urban motorways and a car-centric city centre. Part of this was a proposal for "Streets in the Sky." The idea was to completely separate pedestrian traffic from vehicle traffic by creating a series of elevated walkways criss-crossing the entire city:

The design of Moorfields is a reflection of this. When constructed, it was supposed to plug into a network of above ground pedestrian walkways linking key parts of the city centre. Ultimately, this network of pedestrian sky streets was not constructed, so we are left with the utterly bizarre situation whereby one needs to go upstairs in order to access an underground metro station!

The Liverpool Echo did a decent article on it a while back:

About 20 years ago when I visited Liverpool, I tried exiting Lime Street and ended up on walkways and concrete footbridges to a nearby concrete shopping centre. Would these walkways have been part of that incomplete masterplan?
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Old July 22nd, 2019, 01:01 AM   #6000
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the 1970's built Skywalks in central Leeds went from Infirmary st. across Park Row/City Square to Mill Hill. They were demolished in the mid 1990's
https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/15519269195
I used to study in Leeds from the mid 80s. I remember having to cross Park Row via a high footbridge. I didn't realise that it was part of a longer overhead walkway. Wish I had explored the area more.
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