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Old September 23rd, 2019, 04:14 AM   #181
Taller, Better
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Originally Posted by lezgotolondon View Post
America is doing well under Trump and is a much bigger country (more than 10x) therefore is easier for Canada to do well with the tech sector.
Actually it has taken hard work, planning and cooperation with immigration laws from the Federal Government. It is no "easier" for Canada to do well with the tech sector than it is for the UK, Italy or France. It takes hard work and determination to make a tech sector grown; nothing happens by magic simply because we are next to the USA. Don't forget high tech can settle anywhere in the world; its not the same as oil wells or steel mills.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 02:32 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
Actually it has taken hard work, planning and cooperation with immigration laws from the Federal Government. It is no "easier" for Canada to do well with the tech sector than it is for the UK, Italy or France. It takes hard work and determination to make a tech sector grown; nothing happens by magic simply because we are next to the USA. Don't forget high tech can settle anywhere in the world; its not the same as oil wells or steel mills.
You don't know Italy then
The tech sector there is one of the most underdeveloped among developed nations.

I cannot speak for France but speaking French is a big handicap.

The tech sector in UK is doing very well but the pay is lower and the cost of living in London is higher.
Nort America offers a better deal.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 05:37 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by lezgotolondon View Post
You don't know Italy then
The tech sector there is one of the most underdeveloped among developed nations.

I cannot speak for France but speaking French is a big handicap.

The tech sector in UK is doing very well but the pay is lower and the cost of living in London is higher.
Nort America offers a better deal.
I must agree on Italy, they think paying mid-developers 1500 euros per month is acceptable (they also think it's okay not to pay anything at all if you're junior ) And I'm talking cities like Milan and Rome, I'm yet to discover other exciting facts about Italian tech sector in other places. I did hear about something cooking in Torino (Turin) but I don't think they're there yet (we all know that this city is famous for and that is not exactly about tech)
That being said, Italy had pretty good Universities or so I've heard.

France has Sophia Antipolis which is a tech park near Nice. It generates some value, but companies are targeted mostly on European/internal market (which is not a huge market tbh). Nevertheless, they hire non-eu people and pay competitive wages (by EU standards which is like 3k euros a month before tax).

"tech sector in UK is doing very well"

And here I beg to differ, Ireland is doing very well, yes, but not the UK. Not even London. Wages are nothing near Toronto and cost of living is off the roof (~98k CAD for a senior dev with 40% taxes like everywhere else in the EU)
Name at least one UK-based company like Slack or Shopify or better yet U.S. subsidiary like IBM Canada; they have nothing alike not only in the UK but also in the whole EU. Not to mention the British risk loosing EU market if they choose no-deal Brexit, but that's another story.

I tend to agree that giant U.S. tech market beside plays a big role in Canada's tech wellbeing. Most tech companies exist in both Canada and the U.S. for a reason - both countries share the market, it's not like Shopify and their production offices only exist in Canada. Good trade agreements are very important here and U.S. is the most important trade partner if we're talking tech.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the location (it's probably a lot cheaper and easier to open up outsourcing office somewhere in Eastern European "outsoursing" or "outstaffing" country anyways). I'd say it's more of a cultural thing along with the aforementioned trade agreements. Companies operate in the same manner and have the same culture, in other words, you know what to expect if you open a subsidiary on the other side of the border.

Last edited by crumplescotch; September 23rd, 2019 at 09:40 PM. Reason: SAP-Canada is actually a German subsidiary
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:07 PM   #184
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I must agree on Italy, they think paying mid-developers 1500 euros per month is acceptable (they also think it's okay not to pay anything at all if you're junior ) And I'm talking cities like Milan and Rome, I'm yet to discover other exciting facts about Italian tech sector in other places. I did hear about something cooking in Torino (Turin) but I don't think they're there yet (we all know that this city is famous for and that is not exactly about tech)
That being said, Italy had pretty good Universities or so I've heard.

France has Sophia Antipolis which is a tech park near Nice. It generates some value, but companies are targeted mostly on European/internal market (which is not a huge market tbh). Nevertheless, they hire non-eu people and pay competitive wages (by EU standards which is like 3k euros a month before tax).

"tech sector in UK is doing very well"

And here I beg to differ, Ireland is doing very well, yes, but not the UK. Not even London. Wages are nothing near Toronto and cost of living is off the roof (~98k CAD for a senior dev with 40% taxes like everywhere else in the EU)
Name at least one UK-based company like Slack or Shopify or better yet U.S. subsidiary like SAP-Canada; they have nothing alike not only in the UK but also in the whole EU. Not to mention the British risk loosing EU market if they choose no-deal Brexit, but that's another story.

I tend to agree that giant U.S. tech market beside plays a big role in Canada's tech wellbeing. Most tech companies exist in both Canada and the U.S. for a reason - both countries share the market, it's not like Shopify and their production offices only exist in Canada. Good trade agreements are very important here and U.S. is the most important trade partner if we're talking tech.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the location (it's probably a lot cheaper and easier to open up outsourcing office somewhere in Eastern European "outsoursing" or "outstaffing" country anyways). I'd say it's more of a cultural thing along with the aforementioned trade agreements. Companies operate in the same manner and have the same culture, in other words, you know what to expect if you open a subsidiary on the other side of the border.
Are you Italian?

Most (literally) of the italian tech industry is based in Milan. Turin ha something but it's miles behind Milan (Although it's a much nicer and cheaper city to live in)

The cost of living in Dublin is crazy and very close to London while having slighty lower salaries.
Ireland is either Dublin or small cities in the middle of nowhere and awful weather.
Ireland is good for companies, not for employees.

3000€ gross a month as average is a joke in the UK/Dublin, you get much more, almost double.

Deliveroo, Revolut, Monzo are new London based companies doing very well. London has a MASSIVE presence of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook and so on.


Apple new HQ in London, currently under construction


Canada is competitive because it has cities with great quality of living that are much cheaper than their americans counterparts, Dublin and London.

There are only two remaining english speaking countries: Australia and New Zealand.
Both of them are extremely limited by their geographical position and also expensive.

Therefore in the world if you want to live in an english speaking country you have two best options:

- USA
- Canada if you want public healthcare, less shootings and don't mind about the colder climate.

Everything else is worse on many levels.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:14 PM   #185
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I think the point I was making was that it has nothing to do with it being "easier for Canada to do well with the tech sector" than any other country. It takes work and perseverance for a city or a country to do better. In this day and age of the internet, start ups can be anywhere around the world.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by lezgotolondon View Post

Therefore in the world if you want to live in an english speaking country you have two best options:

- USA
- Canada if you want public healthcare, less shootings and don't mind about the colder climate.

Everything else is worse on many levels.
I agree but this didn't just fall on our laps by chance. Canada and the US both had to do a myriad things very very well to build our economies/opportunities up to where they are now. In tech, the US got there first and has enjoyed the 'first mover' advantage ever since. Canada seems to have finally gotten there too but it was 40 years in the making; the seeds were planted way back in the 1980s.

In many ways being right next to the most dominant tech industry on the planet was a huge disadvantage. We had to go up against entrenched and staggeringly wealthy/powerful companies right on our doorstep. Despite doing everything right our best and brightest left for Silicon Valley shortly after graduation to help propel US tech even further ahead.

That still happens but the fact that Canada has managed to get where it has is very impressive imo. The odds were heavily stacked against us but our tech industry is now blossoming, Toronto is now experiencing brain gain, and Canada has even managed to develop a heavyweight in Shopify. I suspect Shopify won't be the only one either.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:58 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by crumplescotch View Post

I tend to agree that giant U.S. tech market beside plays a big role in Canada's tech wellbeing. Most tech companies exist in both Canada and the U.S. for a reason - both countries share the market, it's not like Shopify and their production offices only exist in Canada. Good trade agreements are very important here and U.S. is the most important trade partner if we're talking tech.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the location (it's probably a lot cheaper and easier to open up outsourcing office somewhere in Eastern European "outsoursing" or "outstaffing" country anyways). I'd say it's more of a cultural thing along with the aforementioned trade agreements. Companies operate in the same manner and have the same culture, in other words, you know what to expect if you open a subsidiary on the other side of the border.
Canada's location has been both an asset and a drawback. Canada benefits from having the same culture, extremely deep economic ties, and the same time zones a the US. That said, it's also hampered Canada's goal of developing a big domestic industry and big tech companies of its own.

There's a reason why Canada has such a large tech industry despite having practically no big tech companies. What talent US tech wasn't able to lure to the US was acquired nonetheless. If they couldn't lure Canadian companies to pack up shop and move to the US they simply bought what ever budding Canadian tech star that came along and then integrated it into their Canadian subsidiary. These Canadian firms became part of Google Canada, Microsoft Canada, Advanced Micro Devices Canada, etc.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 11:38 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
I think the point I was making was that it has nothing to do with it being "easier for Canada to do well with the tech sector" than any other country. It takes work and perseverance for a city or a country to do better. In this day and age of the internet, start ups can be anywhere around the world.
Absolutely not.

A lot of the success of a startup is determined by funding and connections and if you are based in one of the top tech cities in the world you get a huge advantage with being based in Silicon Valley being massive (Let's forget about asia, it's another world)

There are many expamples of competing startup or shitty startup that got hundres of milllions anyway just because they were located in the right place and managed to get the right press.

Other then that: if you need talent, you cannot start your company in a small village in the middle of mountains of inhabited plains.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I agree but this didn't just fall on our laps by chance. Canada and the US both had to do a myriad things very very well to build our economies/opportunities up to where they are now. In tech, the US got there first and has enjoyed the 'first mover' advantage ever since. Canada seems to have finally gotten there too but it was 40 years in the making; the seeds were planted way back in the 1980s.

In many ways being right next to the most dominant tech industry on the planet was a huge disadvantage. We had to go up against entrenched and staggeringly wealthy/powerful companies right on our doorstep. Despite doing everything right our best and brightest left for Silicon Valley shortly after graduation to help propel US tech even further ahead.

That still happens but the fact that Canada has managed to get where it has is very impressive imo. The odds were heavily stacked against us but our tech industry is now blossoming, Toronto is now experiencing brain gain, and Canada has even managed to develop a heavyweight in Shopify. I suspect Shopify won't be the only one either.
I don't think that the odds were stacked against you, you literally have the best situation in the world after the US that has had a natural advantage of being a big country and the major power of the last 75 years. (They managed to sabotage the italian tech industry very well in the 60s and we were doing wonderful things back then)



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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Canada's location has been both an asset and a drawback. Canada benefits from having the same culture, extremely deep economic ties, and the same time zones a the US. That said, it's also hampered Canada's goal of developing a big domestic industry and big tech companies of its own.

There's a reason why Canada has such a large tech industry despite having practically no big tech companies. What talent US tech wasn't able to lure to the US was acquired nonetheless. If they couldn't lure Canadian companies to pack up shop and move to the US they simply bought what ever budding Canadian tech star that came along and then integrated it into their Canadian subsidiary. These Canadian firms became part of Google Canada, Microsoft Canada, Advanced Micro Devices Canada, etc.
Canada has been a relatively small country for years, when the web was born it was below 30 million people plus having the population split across two languages makes it even smaller in many aspects.

The only country that has a massive tech industry in western worlds is the UK that is twice the size of Canada and is neighborning to other less developed industries not the US.

In the end, tech is hypercapitalistc and tend to create (de facto) monopolies, the big easily swallows the smaller fishes, this happens everywhere.
The big ones eat anything remotely interesting or threathning, that's one of the many reasons why governments should step in and break their monopolies.



I just remembered that Canada had Blackberry but they ****ed up almost as bad as Nokia.
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Old September 24th, 2019, 09:46 AM   #189
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Absolutely not.

A lot of the success of a startup is determined by funding and connections and if you are based in one of the top tech cities in the world you get a huge advantage with being based in Silicon Valley being massive (Let's forget about asia, it's another world)
Well, Toronto is not in the Silicone Valley, either; in fact we are a long way away and across an international border. But it started from nothing and worked it's way up. I'm saying you can be connected by internet in 2019 to anywhere in the world; its not the same as traditional industry like coal mining, or drilling for oil.

I don't really follow most of your reasons. Being next to the USA hasn't made Mexico a high tech power, has it? I think you put too much emphasis on that. The UK is DEFINITELY not next to the USA and it has done well. Asia is not next to the USA and it has done well.

Sorry, but to me all this:"Oh it's easy for you because you are next to the USA" stuff sounds like excuses for other countries not really having managed to capitalise on the exploding high tech scene. There was absolutely nothing "easy" about building a high tech industry in one of the more minor countries of the world. It just took hard work and
good planning.
If you snooze, you lose and that has nothing to do with being across the ocean from the USA.
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Old September 24th, 2019, 11:55 AM   #190
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Well, Toronto is not in the Silicone Valley, either; in fact we are a long way away and across an international border. But it started from nothing and worked it's way up. I'm saying you can be connected by internet in 2019 to anywhere in the world; its not the same as traditional industry like coal mining, or drilling for oil.

I don't really follow most of your reasons. Being next to the USA hasn't made Mexico a high tech power, has it? I think you put too much emphasis on that. The UK is DEFINITELY not next to the USA and it has done well. Asia is not next to the USA and it has done well.

Sorry, but to me all this:"Oh it's easy for you because you are next to the USA" stuff sounds like excuses for other countries not really having managed to capitalise on the exploding high tech scene. There was absolutely nothing "easy" about building a high tech industry in one of the more minor countries of the world. It just took hard work and
good planning.
If you snooze, you lose and that has nothing to do with being across the ocean from the USA.
I explained why the UK has done well before.

Mexico has not done well because is a country with a different culture, language and much bigger issues.

Yes, being next to the US can be a good thing but you have to behave in a certain way.

Not being close to the us can also be a good thing but it depends
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Old September 29th, 2019, 05:56 PM   #191
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I don't think that the odds were stacked against you, you literally have the best situation in the world after the US that has had a natural advantage of being a big country and the major power of the last 75 years.
My issue is with you framing it as something Canadians didn't work for but rather inherited simply for being located next to the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lezgotolondon View Post
Canada has been a relatively small country for years, when the web was born it was below 30 million people plus having the population split across two languages makes it even smaller in many aspects.

The only country that has a massive tech industry in western worlds is the UK that is twice the size of Canada and is neighborning to other less developed industries not the US.

In the end, tech is hypercapitalistc and tend to create (de facto) monopolies, the big easily swallows the smaller fishes, this happens everywhere.
The big ones eat anything remotely interesting or threathning, that's one of the many reasons why governments should step in and break their monopolies.

I just remembered that Canada had Blackberry but they ****ed up almost as bad as Nokia.
I find it odd that you view Canada as relatively small but not the UK. In a global context, the UK is a relatively small country as well. And the UK doesn't have a tech industry twice the size of Canada's. That speaks more to the UK perception of Canada being a minnow compared to it. Brits assume anything in Canada must be much smaller and it unfathomable that anything in Canada could be the same size .....or bigger.

I agree that in smaller economies like Canada and the UK governments need to step in and help nurture domestic industry. In a world of the big swallowing the small, we have no other choice. Btw, Nortel and JDS Uniphase are much bigger Canadian tech implosions than Blackberry. They were much bigger than Blackberry ever was and neither exist anymore. At least with Blackberry they've managed to re-invent themselves as a smaller tech company focused on software.
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Old September 29th, 2019, 06:48 PM   #192
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lezgotolondon: One doesn't hear much about UK tech on this side of the pond. How many tech workers does the UK have according to CBRE? What are the UKs 3 biggest tech companies by market cap? Domestic media in every country hype up their own country so it's always best to do your own digging. For comparison's sake CBRE published on June 16th, 2019 that Canada had 832,900 tech workers representing 5.3% of the nation's total workforce.

If I'm wrong I'd like to know but I would be surprised if the UK had 1,665,000 tech workers (using CBRE otherwise it's not an apples to apples comparison). I'd also be surprised if the UK's top 3 tech firms had double (or more) the market cap of Canada's 3 most valuable tech firms.


Canada's Biggest Tech Stocks by Market Cap @ 4:00pm Sept 27th, 2019

1. Shopify $45.78B
2. Constellation Software $27.77B
3. CGI $24.99B
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Old September 30th, 2019, 12:50 AM   #193
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My issue is with you framing it as something Canadians didn't work for but rather inherited simply for being located next to the United States.
I was not trying to say that.
But at certain levels and at certain times being located next to the US has been a big advantages, in other case could have been a malus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I find it odd that you view Canada as relatively small but not the UK. In a global context, the UK is a relatively small country as well. And the UK doesn't have a tech industry twice the size of Canada's. That speaks more to the UK perception of Canada being a minnow compared to it. Brits assume anything in Canada must be much smaller and it unfathomable that anything in Canada could be the same size .....or bigger.

I agree that in smaller economies like Canada and the UK governments need to step in and help nurture domestic industry. In a world of the big swallowing the small, we have no other choice. Btw, Nortel and JDS Uniphase are much bigger Canadian tech implosions than Blackberry. They were much bigger than Blackberry ever was and neither exist anymore. At least with Blackberry they've managed to re-invent themselves as a smaller tech company focused on software.
The UK has been about twice the size of Canada in the last decades and it's still cose to it.

I don't know if the UK has a tech industry that is twice the size of the canadian one but it may be. Plus Canada is doing a lot to make the tech industry work there in forms of tax breaks and so on, the UK? yes but in a more limited way because they don't need, they still are the top tech hub for Europe.

They may start pushing for this harder after brexit though some other countries like the Netherlands and the nordic ones are becoming more competitive at least at the moment.

I think that the bigger competitor may become Canada itself.
Between Sweden and Canada it's a no-brain decision, the only things that is stopping some (European) people is having to deal with visas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
lezgotolondon: One doesn't hear much about UK tech on this side of the pond. How many tech workers does the UK have according to CBRE? What are the UKs 3 biggest tech companies by market cap? Domestic media in every country hype up their own country so it's always best to do your own digging. For comparison's sake CBRE published on June 16th, 2019 that Canada had 832,900 tech workers representing 5.3% of the nation's total workforce.

If I'm wrong I'd like to know but I would be surprised if the UK had 1,665,000 tech workers (using CBRE otherwise it's not an apples to apples comparison). I'd also be surprised if the UK's top 3 tech firms had double (or more) the market cap of Canada's 3 most valuable tech firms.


Canada's Biggest Tech Stocks by Market Cap @ 4:00pm Sept 27th, 2019

1. Shopify $45.78B
2. Constellation Software $27.77B
3. CGI $24.99B
I don't know but:

London attracts more international tech workers than any other city in Europe
https://tech.newstatesman.com/busine...workers-europe

Quote:
While LinkedIn has not yet released raw data on the number of workers moving to London, statistics published by Stack Overflow in December suggest the total number of software developers in the city rose from 303,000 to 357,000 over the last year.
That's just software developers and people on Stack Overflow.
Many people are not software developers and/or not registered there.


https://www.governmentcomputing.com/...tech-employees
Quote:
The figures come as a surprise given that London ranks as the no.1 city for tech and digital experts and the UK sitting in the fifth position among the preferred countries for techies.
I bet that one of the other 4 countries is Canada: better pay, minor cost of living, better outdoors, different climate but not better (at least not for everyone)

Market cap is not a good way to measure tech companies, in particular starups. It's a bubble, things will be different in the future.
Good old revenue and profits are much more important.


Top british tech companies I know:

1. Sage
2. ARM
3. Revolut
4. Deliveroo
5. Shazam
6. Monzo
7. Just Eat
8. Seedrs
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Old September 30th, 2019, 05:02 PM   #194
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To be honest we have kind of gone off topic of Toronto - Waterloo Tech Corridor. We have veered toward the tech scene of UK or London in particular, which doesn't really have anything to do with the one here.
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Old September 30th, 2019, 11:55 PM   #195
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To be honest we have kind of gone off topic of Toronto - Waterloo Tech Corridor. We have veered toward the tech scene of UK or London in particular, which doesn't really have anything to do with the one here.
Wait, the corridor is not going from Toronto to Waterloo, London?
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Old October 1st, 2019, 03:01 AM   #196
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LOL! No, and not to London, Ontario, either!
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Old October 3rd, 2019, 12:17 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
LOL! No, and not to London, Ontario, either!
it's so annoying when I get London, Ontario in the forms suggestions!

Somebody from the Tech Corridor must be lobbying for it!
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Old October 13th, 2019, 11:22 PM   #198
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Really well researched video:



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My Life Thus Far.... Toronto and beyond
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Old November 3rd, 2019, 01:56 AM   #199
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From the New York Times:
http://archive.is/8EADh


Opinion
How Toronto Reined In Big Tech

Its deal with Sidewalk Labs harnesses private “smart city” planning to the public interest.

By Shoshanna Saxe and Matti Siemiatycki

Dr. Saxe is an assistant professor of civil and mineral engineering at the University of Toronto, where Dr. Siemiatycki is the interim director of the School of Cities and an associate professor of geography and planning.

Nov. 1, 2019


This week Toronto won a major fight against Big Tech. But unlike the battles underway in Washington, it wasn’t over digital domains like online privacy or ad sales; rather, it was over something deep out of the city’s industrial past: its waterfront.

Sidewalk Labs, a sister company of Google, had proposed rebuilding a chunk of land east of downtown in exchange for using Toronto as a beta test. In pushing back against that plan, Toronto reached a compromise that lets Sidewalk go ahead, but firmly under public control — setting a precedent for how governments around the world can harness the potential for “smart cities” without letting Big Tech dictate the terms......



read it all here:
http://archive.is/8EADh
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