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Old June 12th, 2019, 04:42 PM   #22061
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At this stage trying to untangle the Phase 1 hybrid bill and other processes is no longer sensible. It's important to serve Staffordshire by HS2 trains, even just at a political level, for what's in the grand scheme of things very little marginal cost. The operational flexibility for future engineering works for example will also be valuable.
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Old June 13th, 2019, 10:07 AM   #22062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cle View Post
Would they be limited to 110mph? Are there any stretches of straight which are now 125, or only EPS?
Wouldn't be too hard to swap out the linespeed authorities and put a general 125mph board up, EPS could remain as is.

However there are very few suitable sections. Rugby to Coventry, Norton Bridge to Crewe, Crewe to Wilmslow (on the alternate Manc route), Preston to Lancaster. None of which will save much time, especially with a cl 91 and its overweight mkIVs. Saying that, lets replace the DVT with a 2nd cl 91 loco
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Old June 13th, 2019, 11:56 AM   #22063
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The passive Liverpool turnoff at the same place as the Manchester turn off.
"The Secretary of State is minded to include passive provision for junctions to enable future Northern Powerhouse Rail services to travel from London to Liverpool and Manchester to Liverpool, using HS2."

Changes to Phase 2b visualisation web site:
https://hs2gis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/...53717fb4dd5aba

.
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Old June 13th, 2019, 12:28 PM   #22064
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That appears to be a triple-decked junction. The Liverpool line branches first and flies over, the Manchester line branches second and dives under, all in one box structure. Should be quite a sight!

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Old June 13th, 2019, 12:37 PM   #22065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sesquip View Post
That appears to be a triple-decked junction.
Reminds me of
https://www.discoveringbritain.org/a...e-bridges.html


On the HS2 website, I want to view the other passive junction, the one on the Manchester spur. But it seems to just link to the main line map. Does the same thing happen to you?

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Old June 13th, 2019, 12:47 PM   #22066
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The passive Liverpool turnoff at the same place as the Manchester turn off.
Is that surprising when HS2 runs perpendicular between the two?
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Old June 13th, 2019, 01:04 PM   #22067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10 View Post

On the HS2 website, I want to view the other passive junction, the one on the Manchester spur. But it seems to just link to the main line map. Does the same thing happen to you?

.
They're on pages 2 and 3 of the same PDF as the London-Liverpool junction:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...gh_Legh_wm.pdf

No detail of the grade separation though.

EDIT 1: A bit of puzzle-solving from the embankment/cutting markings on the plans: The Man-Liv (towards Liv) line will fly over the Manchester spur at Blackburn's Brook (where the spur already crosses on a viaduct). Provisions for the foundations of the viaduct ends are marked on the plan. It'll then be on the level as it crosses the main line (which is in cutting). Provision for this overbridge is marked on the plan.

EDIT 2: I think the Man-Liv line will be wrong-side running as it crosses the main line. The Down (from Man) flies over the spur as a whole and lands on the RH side of the Up line (from Liv):

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Old June 13th, 2019, 02:42 PM   #22068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sesquip View Post
They're on pages 2 and 3 of the same PDF as the London-Liverpool junction:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...gh_Legh_wm.pdf

No detail of the grade separation though.

EDIT 1: A bit of puzzle-solving from the embankment/cutting markings on the plans: The Man-Liv (towards Liv) line will fly over the Manchester spur at Blackburn's Brook (where the spur already crosses on a viaduct). Provisions for the foundations of the viaduct ends are marked on the plan. It'll then be on the level as it crosses the main line (which is in cutting). Provision for this overbridge is marked on the plan.

EDIT 2: I think the Man-Liv line will be wrong-side running as it crosses the main line. The Down (from Man) flies over the spur as a whole and lands on the RH side of the Up line (from Liv):

I'm being thick here...but what is the purpose of the cross-over and junction on the HS2 Mcr Branch to the Mid-Cheshire Line on page 3? Is it to access a maintenance depot?
Can't think what it would have to do with NPR Mcr-Lvpl, though I appreciate the relevance of page 3 generally as it has the very end of the Mcr passive provision turn-out (mostly on page 2) towards Lvpl on future NPR.

EDIT: On zooming in I can see 'Ashley MB-R' - is this ballast and rail maintenance siding with classic access from Mid-Ches and access onto HS2?


The triple-deck box on page 1 (HS2 main line Liverpool and Mcr junctions) looks complex, but does seem to show fast turn-out alignments on both lines (230kph, to match the line speed of the Mcr branch).
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Old June 13th, 2019, 02:54 PM   #22069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewcastleOwl View Post
EDIT: On zooming in I can see 'Ashley MB-R' - is this ballast and rail maintenance siding with classic access from Mid-Ches and access onto HS2?
Yep. On the summary map in the consultation doc, it's labelled "Construction railhead and maintenance facility at Ashley"
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Old June 13th, 2019, 02:55 PM   #22070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sesquip View Post

What software are you using for your excellent images?


Would anyone care to show with an image overlaid on a map everything we know about the newly proposed route into Liverpool, please?

And is there still a Warrington station? Close enough for passengers to interchange with Bank Quay? (Sorry if I haven't been paying attention.)
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Old June 13th, 2019, 03:03 PM   #22071
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I'm using Autocad. And thanks for the compliment

The Liverpool route (via Warrington) is part of NPR and I don't think there's anything in detail yet.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 01:34 AM   #22072
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Today the 2018-19 rail usage stats were published by the ORR, showing an unprecedented total of 1.756 bn journeys made.

This report shows how these totals have risen since 1994/95.

http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/display...a-14c56cf85a63

Of interest to me in the context of HS2 is the rise of long-distance operator passenger numbers since 2009/10. Many of the economic calculations that underpinned the high BCR of the scheme were based on that year as a base line and a conservative assumption of a 2.5% compounded annual increase in passenger numbers.

So with hindsight we now know that the 9-year rise from 111.6 to 144.8 million journeys equated to a rise of nearly 30%. A yearly increase of 2.5 % would have meant a lower total of 139.4 million, so the assumption of conservative growth has been shown to be correct.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 01:48 AM   #22073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Wouldn't be too hard to swap out the linespeed authorities and put a general 125mph board up, EPS could remain as is.

However there are very few suitable sections. Rugby to Coventry, Norton Bridge to Crewe, Crewe to Wilmslow (on the alternate Manc route), Preston to Lancaster. None of which will save much time, especially with a cl 91 and its overweight mkIVs. Saying that, lets replace the DVT with a 2nd cl 91 loco
The blanket 110mph limit on the entire WCML for non-tilting stock has no logical basis - it was adopted by Railtrack to keep other operators off the fast lines to prevent disruption to the WCML franchise. TPE are about to introduce 125mph trains, so I bet it will be rescinded even before HS2.

There is more straight or gently curved track than you mention, for example Tring to Leighton Buzzard (8.75 miles). Also it is likely than any WCML trainsets would be shorter than the current ECML formations, so the power/weight ratio would be much higher.

I had the same idea some time ago about using a 91 on each end, effectively recreating the 1980s British Rail concept of the electric HS2. Would probably require a reduction in the maximum power draw when both locos were powering.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 02:11 AM   #22074
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Originally Posted by CdBrux View Post
Or EVERYONE can simply ignore the guy. He seems to crave attention so don't give it to him at all. Simply don't engage. If you look back again if no-one replies to him he seems to go quiet for a bit
No he doesn't go quiet, not at all. This time he went off and started his 'upgrade the existing lines for 160mph' gibberish on the Birmingham forum - which of course provoked a number of posters on there to start trying to reason with him. So they wasted their time because they had no knowledge of his cynical use of these forums to promote general confusion and dissent against HS2. He has done the same in the past on the Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield forums.

I don't know how many times I have to say this - John Burns is not motivated by the same things as your typical internet troll. He is not very interested in debating or annoying individuals, his agenda is to keep spamming HS2 threads with the same repetitive nonsense. The reason he does this is most likely because he is involved with the StopHS2 pressure group and is essentially following orders.
Quote:
From http://stophs2.org/news/7221-ways-stop-hs2

Join in the discussions on the internet to tell people why you think HS2 is a bad idea. As well as comments on Stop HS2 articles, some newspaper articles allow comments (there’s a list on the side of the page of some of the most recent articles, or join our facebook page.

Write letters to your local news media and to the national press.
The character 'John Burns' is diligent in doing all the things that I've highlighted to disparage HS2. This forum is only ever a small part of his online output.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 10:59 AM   #22075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
The blanket 110mph limit on the entire WCML for non-tilting stock has no logical basis - it was adopted by Railtrack to keep other operators off the fast lines to prevent disruption to the WCML franchise. TPE are about to introduce 125mph trains, so I bet it will be rescinded even before HS2.

There is more straight or gently curved track than you mention, for example Tring to Leighton Buzzard (8.75 miles). Also it is likely than any WCML trainsets would be shorter than the current ECML formations, so the power/weight ratio would be much higher.

I had the same idea some time ago about using a 91 on each end, effectively recreating the 1980s British Rail concept of the electric HS2. Would probably require a reduction in the maximum power draw when both locos were powering.
I thought the 110mph blanket was a legacy from the cl 86, 87 and 90 days where the motive max limit was 110mph. I was unaware that there had been a decision to prevent raising the limit where possible. Seems like a bizarre choice considering that 100mph EMUs were using the fasts right from the off.

I agree there are a few more bits, and to really use them to much effect it would require a better power to weight ratio than cl91 can provide.

I think the WCML power supply (which afaik is quite up to date) would cope with a doubled ended cl91 consist, at least the occasional one anyway. Wouldn't draw much more power than a double headed cl90 on a freightliner - which have a short-term max output nearly the same as a cl91.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 04:28 PM   #22076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Today the 2018-19 rail usage stats were published by the ORR, showing an unprecedented total of 1.756 bn journeys made.

This report shows how these totals have risen since 1994/95.

http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/display...a-14c56cf85a63

Of interest to me in the context of HS2 is the rise of long-distance operator passenger numbers since 2009/10. Many of the economic calculations that underpinned the high BCR of the scheme were based on that year as a base line and a conservative assumption of a 2.5% compounded annual increase in passenger numbers.

So with hindsight we now know that the 9-year rise from 111.6 to 144.8 million journeys equated to a rise of nearly 30%. A yearly increase of 2.5 % would have meant a lower total of 139.4 million, so the assumption of conservative growth has been shown to be correct.
Would it be more useful to look at the growth of the WCML and ECML operators in the context of HS2 assumptions as opposed to all long distance?
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Old June 14th, 2019, 05:39 PM   #22077
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Would it be more useful to look at the growth of the WCML and ECML operators in the context of HS2 assumptions as opposed to all long distance?
It would be, but I don't have the historic figures broken down in the same way for the West Coast and East Coast operators. And EMT figures for the MML always include a lot of local and regional services. I recall reading last year that the 2017-18 passenger growth figure for Virgin trains West Coast was an impressive 4.7%. The East Coast operation was not so impressive however.

This Virgin Trains puff-piece implies the West coast operation has done much better than the national average (although of course a percentage of those journeys will be classed as short-distance).

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about...ecords-2856338

Quote:
April 04 2019. Virgin Trains has broken new passenger records after nearly doubling rail industry growth levels.

Nearly 40 million journeys were made over the last year (2018/19) on the route connecting London to major cities such as Manchester, Birmingham, Preston and Glasgow, a 3.1% increase on the previous year and up by nearly 10m compared with six years previously.

In the last financial year, there were 39.5m journeys, nearly triple the 14m in 1997 when Virgin took over the West Coast route.
So up from 30m in 2012/13 to 39.5m in just six years - which is well over a 5% rate of annual growth. HS2 is above all a WCML relief line and 11 of the 17 trains an hour from London are intended to replace the classic WCML express services. So the consultants who in 2010/2011 estimated the original business case clearly understated the future growth levels that justified the building of HS2.

The question now is how will growth on the WCML until late 2026 (when HS2 opens) be accommodated? Indeed will it be stifled due to demand outstripping supply?
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Old June 14th, 2019, 06:00 PM   #22078
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The Tory leadership race has seen several candidates making hostile remarks about HS2 - Esther McVey and Andrea Leadsom in particular.

Oh dear - both of those moaners failed to secure enough votes to get past the first stage.

What a shame, never mind!

The previous SoS for Transport visiting the Bombardier works in Derby on Tuesday weighed in about HS2 just before the first round of voting took place.

Quote:
Sir Patrick McLoughlin has called on all the Tory leadership candidates to back HS2

Former Transport Secretary Sir Patrick McLoughlin has said whoever wins the Tory leadership race must back HS2.

The MP for Derbyshire Dales has said that his message to all 10 candidates who have put themselves forward to lead the party is: if they want to be Prime Minister, they must support HS2.

Sir Patrick, who was Transport Secretary from 2012 to 2016, said: “Our rail industry is of vital importance to the UK economy and as demand grows, the Government must ensure its ambition continues to grow with it.

“HS2 is a prime example of rail being put at the heart of our economic strategy. As Transport Secretary I was proud to back HS2, and every candidate running to be the next Prime Minister should back it as well.

“This is a crucial project which is delivering jobs, connectivity, and enhanced capacity for the rail network. Frankly, I think it would be mad to consider scrapping it.”
Full article here: https://www.business-live.co.uk/econ...-next-16410451

EDIT: Jeremy Hunt and Sajid Javid are backing HS2 and NPR. Johnson will too, as mentioned before he is usually for grand infrastructure projects. 'High' flyer Gove is to my mind the only one who still poses a real threat.
https://www.business-live.co.uk/econ...build-16414627

Quote:
Two candidates in the race to become the next Tory leader have confirmed they will continue building the HS2 high speed rail line if they win the right to become Prime Minister.

Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt said he would "back and deliver HS2" as well as Northern Powerhouse Rail, another planned new rail line.


And Bromsgrove MP and Home Secretary Sajid Javid claimed he was "100 per cent committed to delivering" HS2 and also backed Northern Powerhouse Rail.
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Old Today, 05:21 PM   #22079
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Phase 2A finally nearing an end at Committee stage...

https://services.parliament.uk/bills...andscrewe.html

Quote:
The Bill has now been referred to a Public Bill Committee which is provisionally due to meet on Tuesday 25 June 2019 and to conclude proceedings on Tuesday 2 July 2019.
Will time be granted in parliament for this bill before the summer recess or more likely delayed until after the party conferences in the autumn ?
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Old Today, 10:11 PM   #22080
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Phase 2A finally nearing an end at Committee stage...

Will time be granted in parliament for this bill before the summer recess or more likely delayed until after the party conferences in the autumn ?
They were talking about getting it through the remaiining Commons stages before Parliament rises for the summer recess (report and third reading are more or less a formality - for the phase 1 bill, both took only a day or so for the public parts.) Thence the hope is to commence the Lords stages after the recess with view to concluding with Royal Assent before the end of the year or early 2020.

To me. the latter seems something of a tall order - just 3 months to complete all Lords stages, though for phase 1 the Lords remit was a more limited than the Common and their Lordships did keep a tighter grip on petitioning to prevent it becoming an endless moan-a-thon.

One can't help but observe then the next tranche of Brexit hysteria will be occurring at about the same time.

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