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Old May 6th, 2018, 01:07 PM   #261
Kpc21
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The M6S 327 car (together with 10 805Na units) is being sold as decommissioned, for scrap. It has been used as spare parts donor and it's practically empty now. MPK leaves the bogeys for themselves.

Photo from 2012 by Łukasz Stefańczyk:



Other photos of this car - www gtlodz eu (add dots instead of spaces), enter its number (327) in the search field.

And here: http://phototrans.pl/15,139097,34.html
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Old May 7th, 2018, 12:01 PM   #262
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The two new Bogestras are already in Łódź:

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Old May 7th, 2018, 08:38 PM   #263
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There are media reports about them. What they say:

- 15 units will be brought to Łódź this year, there will be two new every month,

- the trams are in the MPK workshops in Tramwajowa street, awaiting obtaining the homologation, conversion of power systems (in Łódź we have -600 V DC, in Bogestra they had +750 V DC) and modifications of the passenger information system (to make it compatible with the one used in Łódź - produced by a Polish company R&G, not compatible with the German Ibis standard), they don't write about it, but probably also removing (and selling) the Scharfenberg couplings, which are not allowed in Poland for trams and most stops in the city is anyway too short for those trams to be used in sets of two,

- after introducing the first 4-5 units to traffic (so that they may do two trams at once), bigger modernization will start, it will include installing windows with big pieces which the passengers may open (nobody knows why but Germans always install windows with very small those parts which open, which results in that it's boiling hot in them in summer), installing ramps for wheelchairs in the doors, possibly also repainting them and, if it turns out to be feasible, installing direct doors from outside to the driver's compartments (it is necessary because we still have some track switches that have to be switched manually by the driver, the trams of this type in some German towns have those doors, so adding them should be doable),

- 5 of the trams (including one of those two which came now, the one with Sparkasse advert on it) will have to have the half-axles exchanged, but just now it can be used (even though in Bogestra they weren't using those trams because of that), they will also have to have the rims exchanged.

A video of a local TV station: http://tvtoya.pl/news/show/19039
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Old May 8th, 2018, 09:58 AM   #264
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Interesting that you have reversed polarity. Afaik on most tram networks the wire is + and rails -. I guess that it's actually better to have - on the wire as galvanic corrosion affects the plus side and thus instead "eats" grounded stuff which could be made much thicker.

Do you know why Scharfenberg couplers aren't allowed in Poland?

I guess that the reason for small windows is to reduce the risk of someone hanging out and getting hit by some permanent fixture nearby the tracks, i.e. a traffic sign or similar. Maybe it's also to stop people from jumping out of the tram if there is ticket inspection.

Isn't there any air condition in theese units? Of course that would cost more to install but would be far nicer than changing the windows.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 01:02 PM   #265
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Scharfenberg's couplings are used in Szczecin with Tatra T6A2 and KT4D.
They problem is they are not compatible with Albert couplers used in Łódź (and in Poland generally) – therefore to maintain the same couplings on the whole network different couplings are used.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 01:16 PM   #266
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No, they have no air conditioning. MPK said on Facebook that they will install air conditioning in the driver's compartment, but unfortunately not for the passengers.

The Cityrunner trams already had the windows exchanged to ones with big the part which opens because originally it was simply too hot in them in summer. At some moment, even a rule was introduced that those trams did not leave the depot above a specified temperature during the day (if I remember well, 25 degrees Celsius) because there were many complaints of the passengers that it's too hot in the trams.

The old Konstal 805Na were better in those terms because they have bigger opening parts in windows and also roof "windows" same as those which you see in buses. The roof "windows" are impossible to install in modern trams because they have a lot of electrical machinery placed on the roof and there is simply no room for that, while windows can be exchanged and this will be done.

Interestingly, even in case of the Ikarus 260/280 buses, those delivered to East Germany had windows with small opening pieces while those delivered to most of the Eastern Bloc had windows in which those pieces were big.

I think that with the risks of people hanging out through the window and being hit e.g. by a catenary pole it's exaggeration, in case of train carriages such windows were used for many years (to the moment of the introduction of air conditioning) and I haven't heard about accidents related to that. Also in a private car there is such a danger and nobody cares about it.

It's probably related to that Germans are simply less immune to draughts and they quicker get sick from being exposed to one Also the air conditioning in the public transport in Germany is always set to much less power than, for example, in Poland, not to mention the southern European countries. So that sometimes you don't even notice it's working.

I once watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9PQvsK5QI and from it comes my theory about the standards of windows and air conditioning in public transport in Germany.

Scharfenberg couplers are not allowed because they are a protruding part out of the vehicle and this is not allowed in road traffic.

The only city in Poland which uses them is Szczecin - in Tatra trams brought from Berlin. When they were doing their homologation, they applied for an exception from the rules and they got them. But Łódź is simply not planning to use those trams coupled so they didn't do it.

It's pity because you can see that trams on some lines, especially on two main routes, are overcrowded and they should be longer. But it would also demand rebuilding the platforms at the stops.

Concerning the reversed polarity, I don't know why it is so. If I am not mistaken, Łódź is the only city in Poland with reversed polarity in trams. Although I am not fully sure if it isn't so also somewhere else, in a smaller network.

---

Ok, I found out that apart from Łódź, they have reversed polarity in: Częstochowa, Elbląg, Grudziądz and Gorzów Wielkopolski. But all of those networks are small, only the one in Łódź is big and with reversed polarity.

Also most big tram networks in Poland use normal-gauge trams, Łódź is narrow-gauge.

Concerning the voltage itself, the standard in Poland is 600 V DC, even in the totally new network in Olsztyn they have 600 V; it's just the polarity that vary between the cities.
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Old May 20th, 2018, 12:03 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
I once watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR9PQvsK5QI and from it comes my theory about the standards of windows and air conditioning in public transport in Germany.
Oh, that is exactly how it's in Sweden. We have words with the same meaning, but instead of durschzug we have a word what litteraly would translate as "cross draught". If you open a window on a train you can be sure that some old lady will complain
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Old May 20th, 2018, 01:14 PM   #268
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But we also have a word for that in Polish and it literally translates to German as "Durchzug".

And while we are, seemingly, not so sensitive to draughts as Germans, it's also likely that an old lady may complain when you open a window on a train.

But if it's actually hot, most people will rather appreciate that.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 05:21 PM   #269
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And while we are, seemingly, not so sensitive to draughts as Germans, it's also likely that an old lady may complain when you open a window on a train.

To explain why german busses and trams have small windows it´s necessary to introduce another german word called: Gefährdungshaftung. Literally translated it means, that the operator is liable for any injuries as it´s open public transport and the operator should take into account any risk of injuries. You might say, that you can hold your arm, leg or whatever out of an open car-window as well and that people doing this in trams are stupid. Well, but in past german tram and bus-operators got seriously into trouble with law, as some persons have been injured by holding extremities out of that windows.


Maybe I could add something to the polartiy-thing. It seems to be somewhat philosophy for a civil-engineer like me. First. as MIa M said, for trams it´s probably better to have positive polarity at the overhead-wires.

Berlin U-Bahn small-profile-lines have positive polarity, too. Later they changed to negative polarity on big-profile-lines. An electric engineer explained it to me, as it´s easier to lead the DC back to the converter (AC/DC) station, because resistance (Ohm) in the rails is lesser than that in the overhead-wires or third-rail. But this only really makes sense, if you can garant, that current is lead back to the converter-station via isolated rails correctly. I suppose it´s more difficult, if tracks are street-running like trams are operated in much cases worldwide.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 07:14 PM   #270
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Btw IIRC the east germans changed polarity on their small profile line, to be able to run the trains via the large profile line (switching between lines at Alexanderplatz) to reach the only U-Bahn depot that ended up in East Berlin.

I think you might be onto something re polarity. The wehicle won't care which lead the largest voltage drop is in, but it might have something to do with galvanic corrosion. If the feeding point is properly grounded then due to voltage drop other parts of the rails will have a slightly positive polarity compared to true ground. Thus galvanic corrosion will be a controlled problem on the rail, and not an uncontrolled problem on various metal stuff in the ground nearby, like water pipes and even worse gas pipes. The rails are thick enough to be able to withstand some corrosion, they are probably specified with enough material on their bottom part to withstand corrosion during their planned life length.

I guess that the tram or rail companies would be liable for lots of damages otherwise.

Not sure how it's with water pipes and other metal stuff in the ground in Lodz though.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 08:46 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
To explain why german busses and trams have small windows it´s necessary to introduce another german word called: Gefährdungshaftung. Literally translated it means, that the operator is liable for any injuries as it´s open public transport and the operator should take into account any risk of injuries. You might say, that you can hold your arm, leg or whatever out of an open car-window as well and that people doing this in trams are stupid. Well, but in past german tram and bus-operators got seriously into trouble with law, as some persons have been injured by holding extremities out of that windows.
What if you just put signs next to the window that it's forbidden to stick limbs out of the windows?

Because I think I saw such signs on public transport in Poland, although it's not very common. I think here it would be anyway obvious that it's the fault of the passenger. It's not like in the US where you put a wet cat into a microwave to dry it, turn the oven on and the cat dies, then you discover that there is no warning about not putting cats into the microwave in the user manual, you can sue the oven's manufacturer and you may win.

And even if you have a small window, you maybe won't stick your head out of it, but it's still possible with your arm.

Anyway, this is the balance between two things:
- what if someone gets it by external items because the opening part of window was too big and invited him to stick his body out of it, which results with an accident,
- what if someone faints in the public transport vehicle because it was too hot inside because it wasn't possible to open the windows in a sufficient amount.
In this situation I feel sorry for you Germans that you must travel in such conditions on the public transport because of a stupid law of the "state thinks instead of the citizen" type. At least in the old, not yet air-conditioned vehicles. And I am happy that in Poland it's perfectly legal to install "correct" windows.

I don't think the water pipes in the ground in Łódź are metal, I know they used to make it of asbestos and now as asbestos is forbidden, they are made of a kind of plastic. But maybe they were metal before asbestos (after all, they had to be made out of some kind of material, there was no asbestos yet and the technology of plastic was also not developed so well as now) and if so, then there will probably still be many of those metal pipes in the streets.

I found a presentation on the materials for water pipes: https://www.kierunekwodkan.pl/Resour...e3eb73f5df.pdf

The mentioned materials are:
- wood - one photo from a museum, another of the old pieces of pipes - an obsolete technology, probably no longer used anywhere (although still used in 18th century), problems with leakages
- grey cast iron - not recommended, no longer produced - too brittle and problems with leakages
- ductile iron - many advantages, used currently in practice, problems: expensive, heavy, susceptible to corrosion if the protective shell gets damaged (I don't know if this shell also isolates the pipe electrically but it's not unlikely)
- steel - recommended for some special cases, must be protected against corrosion by painting inside and outside, the paint must be certified for contact with drinking water
- lead - not recommended, bad for health, used in the past
- asbestos - not recommended, bad for health, used in the past
- PVC - not recommended, not durable enough
- PE - recommended but there are problems with locating the leakages and it's not certain if it's not bad for health
- stainless steel - recommended but too expensive - used at nodes

There are four materials currently in use:
- for linear applications: ductile iron and PE
- at nodes: steel and stainless steel
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 09:22 PM   #272
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It's not like in the US where you put a wet cat into a microwave to dry it, turn the oven on and the cat dies, then you discover that there is no warning about not putting cats into the microwave in the user manual, you can sue the oven's manufacturer and you may win.

Well, here we are in Germany,too. It´s not a state-law it´s the lawyer. If someone falls on tracks because he is drunk we often have trouble beeing accused and have to prove that it was not possible to break (even if he/her falls direct before the train). But honestly until now transport-operators kept free from any penalty. The legal argumentation is the same as car against bike. Even if the cyclist did it wrong, car-drivers are accused at part because they simply have the more danerous vehicle.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 09:36 PM   #273
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Btw IIRC the east germans changed polarity on their small profile line, to be able to run the trains via the large profile line (switching between lines at Alexanderplatz) to reach the only U-Bahn depot that ended up in East Berlin.

Yes, they did so in 1977 and changed back in 1993, together with the reunification of U2.



Quote:
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The rails are thick enough to be able to withstand some corrosion, they are probably specified with enough material on their bottom part to withstand corrosion during their planned life length.

It´s not because the rails withstand galvanic corrosion better. He explained it to me, that electric-resistance on the way to subsbstation is lesser through rail and you have a controled point at the substation to handle galvanic corrosion better there with negative polarity. But this only works in a railway-like trackbed with good isolation. To my knowledge I would still prefer the positve polarity nowadays. At least I know not much cases because of galvanic corrosion on trams and metro here in Berlin, no matter which polarity.



Changing polarity is not a matter anymore in Berlin, although new small-profile trains are equipped with that switch. Devil liles in the details because we already have severe faults in tests. Modern trains are much more complicated, so switching polarity is a mess compared to have 2-voltage-switch operation like 600V to 750 V DC.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 01:36 AM   #274
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It makes some sense that the resistance is lower through the rails than through the catenary because rails are thicker than the catenary.

Although on the other hand, there are dilatation gaps in the rails which must be electrically bridged - and probably those bridges are the point about which most care must be taken to maintain this possibly low resistance path.

This is also important from the safety perspective, by the way - if the resistance on such bridge happens to be too high, not only it will be problematic for the trains to run at all, but there might be a difference of potentials on both sides of such a "resistor". When there is just a break... the train won't run at all (no current will be able to flow), but it will instead pull the voltage from the catenary to the rails, isn't it?

Looking at it from a different point - there are sometimes problems with a good electric connection between the catenary and the pantograph, e.g. if there is ice on the catenary. The ice is an insulator - in most cases, luckily, the voltage between the catenary and the pantograph is enough to cause an electric breakdown in it, which results with spectacular sparks (and melting down the ice), but you can hear from the work of the motors that the voltage they get is not too stable (because the resistance of the ice being melted and thus the voltage drop across it constantly change). So the resistance between the train and the substation through the catenary in some special cases (like ice on the catenary) might be not only quite high but also unstable, which rather doesn't happen with the rails (I assume much care is taken to keep those bridges at dilatation gaps in good condition since it's also a matter of safety).

And the connection between the train and the rails will be always good (as long as the train remains on the rails and the rails are still made of metal) thanks to the gravity.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 03:04 PM   #275
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This is also important from the safety perspective, by the way - if the resistance on such bridge happens to be too high, not only it will be problematic for the trains to run at all, but there might be a difference of potentials on both sides of such a "resistor". When there is just a break... the train won't run at all (no current will be able to flow), but it will instead pull the voltage from the catenary to the rails, isn't it?

Yes. It´s comparable to a typical problem occuring in autumn, if leaves from trees falling on the rails in such an amount and short time, that no current flows, but tram is under full-voltage. This happens not very often, but staff has to Keep in mind this danger.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 04:02 PM   #276
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The voltage drop doesen't care which polarity is used, it's the same.

So it must have something to do with galvanic corrosion.

With minus on the wire and plus on the tracks it saves the tracks but causes corrosions to nearby metal water pipes and the large ground at the substation.

With plus on the wire and minus on the tracks, i.e. the most common polarity, it causes corrotion to the tracks but everything else is saved.

P.S. the corrosion is of course only happening when there is enough moist in the ground to conduct enough current to cause the corrosion.

Btw the London Underground uses insulated rails for both plus and minus, i.e. a third and a fourth rail, to avoid corrosion to the tunnels which afaik are made of metal.

But I guess that the polarity mostly is an example of "this is how we always have done it, and we will conitnue to always do it this way"...


Btw re. a wehichle loosing it's ground throuhg the rails (in your case due to leaves): I've read a story about an electric shunter derailed somewhere around Stockholm Central, and to be able to easier get it on tracks again, the staff drove it directly on the macadam even though it had no contact to the rails, and this is with 16kV AC electrification! The person telling the story saw it from a distance, so maybe they had some ground wire from the shunter to the rails which he didn't see. Otherwise it seems really dangerous especially as staff were standing in the macadam nearby...
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 06:22 PM   #277
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So both in case of rails and in case of catenary, the cases of loosing good conductivity happen - at the rails because of leaves, at the catenary because of ice.

But those leaves (by the way, causing also other problems - with braking) are usually wet, so the problems with the current shouldn't be so big...

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Old June 5th, 2018, 10:47 PM   #278
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Update from Dąbrowskiego street:

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Przypadkiem przejeżdżałem obok X Kilińskiego - Dąbrowskiego, więc parę fotek uwieczniłem, bo zmiany delikatne zauważyłem.

Wlot od południa i sieć trakcyjne podczepiona pod nowe antracytowe słupy.




Podwieziono klocki do układania... Chłopcy będą mieć zabawę.


A tu będą kręcić film wojenny....
(don't ask me what were those photos taken with, I have no idea)

And a new renovation - Narutowicza street:

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Originally Posted by Polopiryn View Post
No to na dzisiaj Narutowicza, zaczynamy od Kopcińskiego.

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


Cdn ...
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Originally Posted by Polopiryn View Post
6.


7.


8.


9. Jak widać Radiostacja będzie zrobiona, jupi. Mogli tylko pociągnąć aż do Łuku .. :P


10.


Cdn ...
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Originally Posted by Polopiryn View Post
11.


12.


13. Nie wiem czy to starożyteczne, które zostaną użytę czy stare z krańcówki. Jednak wydaje mi się, że są to staroużetecze


14.


Fotorelacja wstawiona automatycznie.
The tracks are being renovated between Kopcińskiego street and the Radiostacja loop.
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Old June 6th, 2018, 01:10 AM   #279
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Building new hall in the Telefoniczna depot:

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Jedno zza węgła.
Budowa nowej hali w zajezdni Telefoniczna.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 01:27 PM   #280
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The second NF6D - the first one from the actual purchase of MPK after the test one - had its premiere on Monday:





The old and the new number:



As you can see, it seems that the German IBIS-compatible directional displays got adjusted to the R&G IBIS-incompatible system used in Łódź.

It probably also includes the on-board displays (they managed to do it in the first tram, the test one, even though the external ones got exchanged into original R&G ones), which is a kind of novice in Łódź, until now the on-board displays in the imported trams and buses were never used and the only ones in use in Łódź were fully R&G original.

R&G is a Polish company from the town of Mielec producing passenger information systems for the public transport.
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