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Old September 27th, 2019, 12:16 PM   #41
sefton66
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98m I make it from tallest elevation

This was planned to be 40 storeys pre planning
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Old September 27th, 2019, 12:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReissOmari View Post
What a nice end to the month! App is now in, we're looking at 6-30FL with the height of 95m (could be slightly more as the elevation drawings seem to be slightly off)




https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/...m/Menus/PL.xml

(on mobile so can't post renders right now)

Digbeth continuing to improve
Interestingly, it shows the entire block from M&S u to Waterstones as approved (i assume its an error) and various sites around Digbeth as being approved or in planning (Typhoo Wharf being one of them,.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 12:37 PM   #43
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The Stone Yard | High Street Deritend | Mixed-Use | 30fl | Prop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sefton66 View Post
98m I make it from tallest elevation

This was planned to be 40 storeys pre planning


40 storeys?? What happened?? I hope they do a one east side and increase the floor count
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Old September 27th, 2019, 12:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasaandoo View Post
40 storeys?? What happened?? I hope they do a one east side and increase the floor count
From the D&A document

Quote:
A 30 storey tower marking the corner of High Street and Alcester Street was viewed to be an appropriate height to mark the Gateway.
  • It was viewed that the length of the tower should be reduced to give more slender proportions.
Not sure entirely how making the tower shorter makes it more slender though
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Old September 27th, 2019, 01:50 PM   #45
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The more I read such rational the more arbitrary the decision making process seems. Define "appropriate", define "gateway". Was 30 storeys deemed appropriate in anticipation of towers steadily increasing in height towards the city core? Would a 40 storey tower not serve as the southern tip of a triangle marked by the Mercian in Westside and One Eastside?
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Old September 27th, 2019, 01:59 PM   #46
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If they saying this is a gate way tower I highly doubt the Irish’s centre tower is going to be tall
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Old September 27th, 2019, 03:32 PM   #47
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In part 3 of the D&A statement, an early diagram labels the neighbouring Irish Centre as 35 storeys.

The 2 tallest buildings in the current proposal are 30 and 15 storeys respectively. 41 & 27 storeys, and two 33 storey towers were previous considerations mentioned in the statement.

I do suspect something with more significant height than here will be proposed at the Irish centre site.

But I don't particularly think there needs to be much high rise development in this area, too much height, i.e. significantly above 100m, may be aesthetically detrimental to the neighbouring Digbeth conservation area.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 05:07 PM   #48
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The sixth tallest building to arrive this year. Fabulous stuff
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Old September 27th, 2019, 06:15 PM   #49
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Heights of all the blocks that I could find in the elevation docs:

30/16/10/9 fl | 98/40/35/28m
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Old September 27th, 2019, 06:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaciaDuster View Post
Heights of all the blocks that I could find in the elevation docs:

30/16/10/9 fl | 98/40/35/28m
The height of the 16 story building doesn’t look right. Those figures should suggest less than 2.5 meters per floor.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 06:55 PM   #51
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Bit of a throwback from me: The other side of the site was purchased by Gallagher Developments - remember me banging on about that?

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showp...postcount=5098

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showp...&postcount=627

Estates Gazette article from today:
https://www.egi.co.uk/news/tony-gall...to-birmingham/


Photo credit: ....erm, me.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 07:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasaandoo View Post
If they saying this is a gate way tower I highly doubt the Irish’s centre tower is going to be tall
Mate, we absolutely love you and your passion, but read the application

The Planning Statement by CBRE makes for some interesting reading. Notably on Page 63 of 75.

I'll quote:
"A circa. 47 storey residential tower is proposed at the Irish Centre site, the footprint of which will cover the site given the constrained island-type nature. It is envisaged that at ground-floor, there will be active commercial uses. At this stage in the design process, it is anticipated that this site could deliver around 450no, apartments, comprising a mix of 1-and 2-bed apartments"
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Last edited by PerpetualBrum; September 27th, 2019 at 08:44 PM. Reason: forgot to put in circa
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Old September 27th, 2019, 07:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerpetualBrum View Post
Mate, we absolutely love you and your passion, but read the application



The Planning Statement by CBRE makes for some interesting reading. Notably on Page 63 of 75.



I'll quote:

"A 47 storey residential tower is proposed at the Irish Centre site, the footprint of which will cover the site given the constrained island-type nature. It is envisaged that at ground-floor, there will be active commercial uses. At this stage in the design process, it is anticipated that this site could deliver around 450no, apartments, comprising a mix of 1-and 2-bed apartments"


Dammmmn PB dropping the knowledge, I hadn’t got to reading it but 47 stories now that what I’m talking about thanks PB for the info
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Old September 27th, 2019, 07:39 PM   #54
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Honestly.

You've got to ask what kind of moron's are put into play the issue with 'height' in the middle of an industrial area and train line.

This is EVERYTHING that's wrong with Birmingham's planning department.

It;s a shit show of inadequacies followed by contradictions spanking them on their arses every which way a developer turns.

They pretend to have a 'Big City' plan, yet what they don't seem to EVER do is actually look at the consistency of reducing development densities creating need for ever more land to be purchased, then built on and eventually sprawl progressing into suburban areas further down the line to match population growth.

This is everything that's wrong with this city.

It's a ******* nightmare for the city having the dimwitted 'tinpot' mentality city planners that we do.

As someone at the event mentioned the other day. The ideal density per square mile for cities is 6-8,000 people per sq mile.

Birmingham pisses about at 4,000 because developers aren't encouraged to do anything other than the norm.

Its frustrating as **** to be honest.

People have this stupid ideology that 'tall' buildings are bad.

They're not. The greatest cities in the world are built with tall building's. Large spaces, maximising land and densifying areas.

These same people who think 'tall' buildings are bad, are the same people who make objection's to new low level, low density housing development's in the green field next to them which is needed for the growing population.

There needs to be ZERO restriction's on height. There need's to be a further uplift on densities, or at least match the densities already set out, there need's to be encouragement for developers to be 'more' than what there is and not put these stupid ideology in place that thing's can be 'overbearing' or too 'tall' in such locations and then after that, they need to stop being so ******* slow in actually allowing developers to progress thier plans.

I mean look at this ******* timetable.

Pre-application Meeting 1 10th May 2018
Pre-application Meeting 2 13th August 2018
Pre-application Meeting 3 10th October 2018

October 2018 - Massing (design by others)
Planning feedback received highlighted that the
perimeter block arrangement lacked sufficient
permeability into the development. Separation
of the blocks was required to enable daylight
penetration through the site. The overall massing
was viewed to be too bulky

Pre-application submission - February 2019

The initial design proposed at the start of 2019, in response to
the feedback received in 2018 responded to the
requirement for further permeability. The proposal for
separate buildings clustered around two distinct courtyard
spaces was well received during planning consultation.
However further review of the height was required in light of
wider BCC urban design requirements and the emerging
Rea Valley SPD.
(WHAT THE **** DOES THIS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE EFFECT OF LIGHT WHATSOEVER - NOT ONLY THAT, THEY WERE ENCOURAGED TO CHANGE THE DESIGN TO PERMEATE MORE LIGHT, BY ACTUALLY UNIFORMING THE HEIGHT'S OF THE BLOCKS AROUND THE SCHEME)

Final pre-application planning submission to
BCC: 20/06/2019.


A 30 storey tower marking the corner of High Street and Alcester Street was
viewed to be an appropriate height to mark the Gateway.
It was viewed that the length of the tower should be reduced to give more
slender proportions.
a 26 storey tower at the corner of the new pedestrian link and High Street
could not be justified. A height reduction to 15 storeys was viewed to be a more
appropriate nodal point marking the pedestrian link. - (HONESTLY, WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT)
Block E to be reduced to 8 storeys storeys to relate better to the massing in Cheapside. (YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING)??
A 5 / 6 storey residential block to be provided at the corner of Green St and
Chapel House Street - (ACTUALLY CREATING LESS OPEN , GREEN SPACE AND PEDESTRIAN ROUTES)
Relocation of the community space/ Irish community facility away from the
junction of Chapel House Street and Green Street to Block C.

Final planning feedback received: 25/06/2019


Massing frozen further to direct feedback on 25th June 2019 received from
BCC:
Increase to 9 Storey on the corner of Green Street and Chapel House
Street was viewed to be acceptable due to the relationship with the
future proposed Connaught Square development.
6 storeys fronting onto Green street was viewed to be appropriate.
A reduction to a 10 storey shoulder height on the High Street

Public consultation Leaflet drop date: 15/08/2019



SO IN 14 MONTH'S - CAN ANYONE ACTUALLY CARE TO EXPLAIN TO ME, WHAT THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT HAS ACTUALLY ACHIEVED IN DITHERING AROUND WITH THIS APPLICATION? BUTTING IT'S NOSE IN, OFFERING RIDICULOUS SUGGESTIONS TO SHOW INPUT? TO HAVE A SAY? TO SHOW IT'S SOME HOW IMPORTANT?

14 MONTHS TO BE ENCOURAGED OT GO BIGGER, THEN HALF A YEAR LATER SHORTER, TO THEN BEING PETULANT ON OTHER BLOCK HEIGHTS?

IN EUROPE, This would take 3-6 month's. And I mean from pre-app to planning permission. Not nearly 2 years. I bet in Manchester and London it's also twice as quick as Birmingham. It's a bloody mess.


P.S

Now my rant is over, it's a decent development. Well done Court. Shame the densification of this area however is being restricted.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #55
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I love that some of the reasoning is based on "proposed" developments in Digbeth and the surrounding area. It's great that there's a little bit of forward thinking there but unfortunately nothing is actually getting built in this area. Just an ever increasing pile of proposals.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 08:19 PM   #56
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Once one kicks off it’ll hopefully be the spur the others need

Imagine driving through here with all the cranes if they all go up around the same time though
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Old September 27th, 2019, 09:19 PM   #57
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I will say, the timetable of 14 month will largely be down to the client. As you can see, the time taken between final submission and final comments was 5 days. I’d expect each of the other stages to have taken no more than two months from submission to comment and the two months is an extremely bad service.

In any case I think it’s worth reading the planning statement account of the pre-app:

Quote:
Feedback from Birmingham City Council has been received throughout the design process through formal pre-application engagement. The scheme has evolved dramatically since the initial stages, particularly in terms of massing, resulting in a reduction from four towers fronting the High Street in the original scheme, to one tower at the corner of Alcester Street and High Street and the massing reduced from continuous perimeter blocks to 7no. individual blocks. Table 6 sets out the height reduction from the original scheme to this current submitted scheme.

May 2018
The initial scheme, which was designed by a different architect to those now forming the current planning application, comprised two perimeter blocks of development, separated by the boulevard through the centre of the Site. Each block comprised two towers, with the lower (c. 23 storeys) marking the gateway to the boulevard. A 32 storey tower was proposed at the corner with Alcester Street and High Street, and a 29 storey tower at the corner of High Street and Chapel House Street.

A meeting was held on the 10th May and the proposals discussed. Overall, BCC considered that in principle, a development comprising residential uses with ground floor commercial uses would be suitable in this location. However, the scale of development is much greater than what BCC would consider acceptable on this particular site. This scheme comprised a total of 1,591 units (approximately 49% 1- bed, and 51% 2-bed).

August 2018
The project team reviewed the scheme in light of previous comments made. This included:

- The central towers either side of the pedestrian boulevard reduced from 24- to 15-storeys
- Building along Green Street reduced by one floor to six-storeys;
- Shoulder height of the main tower reduced by 4 floors to 11 storeys (1/3 of main tower).
- Reduction of apartment numbers from 1,591 to 1,365 (226 less).

BCC invited the project team to review the scheme in the VR room. This involved viewing a simplified version of the applicant’s scheme and a block massing scheme prepared by BCC. This meeting was held as a discussion regarding the scale and mass of the proposed development.

BCC presented a scheme which reduced some of the proposed heights and removed the tower at the corner of Chapel House Street / Alcester Street. The height of the blocks on Alcester Street, Green Street and Chapel House Street were reduced to reflect the development to the south of Green Street. The tower at the corner of High Street / Alcester Street and the shoulder blocks reflect the pattern of other developments (e.g. Lunar Rise, Connaught Square). 3no. 10-storey blocks are proposed on the High Street with an additional gap in the western section.

October 2018
In response to the comments made by BCC in the previous pre-application meeting and subsequent correspondence, the proposed design of the scheme evolved to primarily reduce the scale and massing. The number of towers on the Site reduced from 4no. to 2no., with the second tower (25 storeys) marking the junction of the pedestrian boulevard with the High Street, to mark both the new north south permeable route and the provision of a generous new public space with active frontages. The tower at High Street / Alcester Street is now 30 storeys. This also maximises the Site’s full potential and avoids creating a repetitive pattern of development if other sites are subject to the same criteria as discussed at the VR room review meeting.

The buildings along Green Street have been reduced to 5 storeys which becomes 6 storeys at the boulevard due to the sloping site. This increases the daylight / sunlight to the residents’ amenity gardens through lower building heights. The curved building at the corner of Chapel House Street / High Street has been reduced in scale but the curve retained to allow light into the properties should a tall building be introduced at the Irish Centre.

A meeting was held with BCC to discuss the revised proposals. Comments were raised by BCC in connection with the heights of the towers, but a solution or acceptable height was not discussed.

Apartment numbers reduced from 1,365 to 1,310 (55 less) at approximately 60% 1- bed and 40% 2-bed.

February 2019
Earlier this year, the applicant instructed Glancy Nicholls Architects to develop the scheme for the Bull Ring Trading Estate. Taking into consideration the previous pre- application advice provided by BCC, particularly regarding the support for a tall building at High Street / Alcester Street, and the breaking up of the perimeter blocks, the revised scheme proposed:

- G+40 storey block at High Street / Alcester Street
- G+26 storey block ‘node’ to the west of the boulevard at the High Street frontage
- Inclusion of boulevard
- G+10 storeys at the corner of Chapel House Street / High Street to allow the
potential redevelopment of the Irish Centre
- Breaks development up into 7no. individual blocks to reduce massing and increase permeability
- G+5 storeys at Green Street 976 apartments (48% 1-bed, 52% 2-bed; 382 less than previous)

Written feedback from BCC dated 26th April 2019 confirmed that the principle of the redevelopment of the Site comprising residential development with ground floor commercial uses would be suitable in the location. Support was provided that the applicant would likely be bringing forward both the Bull Ring Trading Estate site and the Irish Centre site.

The officer stated that in principle, tall buildings at the Irish Centre site and the corner of High Street / Alcester Street may be acceptable, however a secondary G+26 storey tower at the corner of the new pedestrian line and High Street cannot be justified. The tower at High Street / Alcester Street should be no more than 30-storeys, and its length should be reduced to give more slender proportions.

The officer stated that whilst BCC had no objections with the 10 storey shoulder heights along the High Street, it was noted that the 10 storey block at the corner of Alcester Street and Green Street (block E) should be reduced to 8 storeys.
Support was provided for the 15m wide pedestrian route through the Site between Digbeth High Street and Green Street, together with two private amenity areas and roof terraces. When compared to the original scheme, reducing the scale of the buildings will also let more light into the private courtyards, However, it would be advantageous if the scheme could also include apartments with private balconies.

No objections were raised in relation to the proposed ~5% parking provision, providing sufficient space is available for disabled and electric vehicles.
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Old September 27th, 2019, 10:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefton66 View Post
98m I make it from tallest elevation

This was planned to be 40 storeys pre planning
Sssssssssh dont tell Josh
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Old September 28th, 2019, 01:05 AM   #59
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Sssssssssh dont tell Josh
I'd be uneasy about it if other talls in the area had actually got built. I'm sure court will get this one done though. Fingers crossed.

I'm looking forward to see this 47 storey tower people have been on about. Must be at least 145m tall.
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Old September 28th, 2019, 01:09 AM   #60
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I think it looks great. A development that will have a positive impact on improving the area and adding to the gateway to the city.
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