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Old May 15th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #21
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The Magic Clock pub Queen Square.

http://www.artinliverpool.com/images...-clock-300.jpg





During the postwar years, homosexuality was still illegal in England, however if it remained 'discreet' then gays were often tolerated especially in Liverpool, still a big international metropolis. The local police were aware of the type of people who frequented the Magic Clock and the other little hideaways in Queen Square that amounted to a gay village, but unless public order was breached then the police and locals left the gay community alone. Apparently it was a very quaint little pub, with stained glass windows and an ornate bar, and Brian Epstein was a regular. Queen Square looked like a European style square then, prior to it all being swept away in the disastrous redevelopment of the late 60's Having gone through another redevelopment in the 90's the area is unrecognizable to those earlier times, and the gay community has moved to Stanley Street which in a more open and tolerant era proudly proclaims its existence, back in the 50's of course the danger of being caught and put on trial for your sexual orientation was real and it could be said that only those who were comfortable with their sexuality went to these bars, for most Scouse gay men back then a life in the navy or priesthood was the more likely vocation.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #22
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Excellent, Medi. That's what I started this thread for. The contemporary and the historic. Btw, I'll be featuring Everton soon, so you Reds better start doing some research because you can't expect me to cover Liverpool
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Old May 16th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Medi73#! View Post
The Magic Clock pub Queen Square.

http://www.artinliverpool.com/images...-clock-300.jpg





During the postwar years, homosexuality was still illegal in England, however if it remained 'discreet' then gays were often tolerated especially in Liverpool, still a big international metropolis. The local police were aware of the type of people who frequented the Magic Clock and the other little hideaways in Queen Square that amounted to a gay village, but unless public order was breached then the police and locals left the gay community alone. Apparently it was a very quaint little pub, with stained glass windows and an ornate bar, and Brian Epstein was a regular. Queen Square looked like a European style square then, prior to it all being swept away in the disastrous redevelopment of the late 60's Having gone through another redevelopment in the 90's the area is unrecognizable to those earlier times, and the gay community has moved to Stanley Street which in a more open and tolerant era proudly proclaims its existence, back in the 50's of course the danger of being caught and put on trial for your sexual orientation was real and it could be said that only those who were comfortable with their sexuality went to these bars, for most Scouse gay men back then a life in the navy or priesthood was the more likely vocation.
Are there any, exclusively, Lesbian bars or clubs in Liverpool? Or, indeed, any at all?
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Old May 16th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #24
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Are there any, exclusively, Lesbian bars or clubs in Liverpool? Or, indeed, any at all?
Hi Jane, interesting question. The answer is not really, the former pacos on stanley street changed hands and I think it opened as a lesbian bar for a whilr, I think that failed and its changed hands numerous times with a lesbian couple running it at one time. I think the armistead project have social facilities for women but apart from that I dont think there's much in the way of exclusively lesbian bars in Liverpool but there may be in Manchester. Of course lesbians intermingle in most gay bars like the Lisbon but I always feel they are underrepresented in society.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #25
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Quote by Winston Churchill on homosexuality “It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it. ”
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Old May 16th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #26
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Hi Jane, interesting question. The answer is not really, the former pacos on stanley street changed hands and I think it opened as a lesbian bar for a whilr, I think that failed and its changed hands numerous times with a lesbian couple running it at one time. I think the armistead project have social facilities for women but apart from that I dont think there's much in the way of exclusively lesbian bars in Liverpool but there may be in Manchester. Of course lesbians intermingle in most gay bars like the Lisbon but I always feel they are underrepresented in society.
There are two explicitly lesbian bars in Manchester city centre, an unofficial one in Chorlton (forget the name) and a few occasional lesbian nights at non-lesbian venues. Even London has very few though, so I doubt Liverpool's lack of them is representative of anything other than a reduced market for dedicated social spaces for the lesbian community.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 04:13 PM   #27
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There are two explicitly lesbian bars in Manchester city centre, an unofficial one in Chorlton (forget the name) and a few occasional lesbian nights at non-lesbian venues. Even London has very few though, so I doubt Liverpool's lack of them is representative of anything other than a reduced market for dedicated social spaces for the lesbian community.
There used to be a bar on Stanley Street called Bar Du Faye (sp?) which I think was a lesbian bar. It closed about 4ish years ago.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #28
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The Orange and the Green


Firstly, even though sectarianism is largely a thing of the past in Liverpool,residues remain. So I have proceeded with caution. I refrained from making any value judgements about either side and have omitted the most unsavoury actualities. What is written here has largely been gleaned from two sources;

Sectarian Violence - The Liverpool Experience,1819-914, Frank Neal, Manchester University Press, 1988

Democracy and Sectarianism; Political and Social History of Liverpool, P.J.Waller, Liverpool University Press,1981


Both of the above are well respected academic studies of the subject. The books complement each other and with a combined total over 800 pages,make an in depth study.
These are the only works worth consulting on the subject in my opinion. Where this issue has been referenced elsewhere, it is usually a heavily sanitised and almost nostalgic version of events. Typical of this type would be the Lost Tribes of Everton and Scotland Rd, by a local hack in the employ of the Post & Echo. The book is no more than money chasing populist pap in my opinion. I'm not quite sure what the purpose of the book is,apart from the obvious,monetary gain. Although I suspect the intention is to induce the reader into a dewy-eyed nostalgia trip for the 'good old days' They would be the days of TB, slums, poverty and segregated communties I presume.

Nowhere in England approaches Liverpool for its history of sectarianism in this respect at least, Liverpool is unique. Even today the city remains,as it has been for over a century,the stronghold of the Orange Order in England. In most towns and cities in England in which the Orange Order has a presence, there will be one band, sometimes in the larger cities two, the Liverpool area has nineteen, Bootle, has more Orange Order members and bands than Manchester.
Liverpool is the Orange Order in England.

The first Orange Order march in Liverpool took place in 1819,it was promptly by sections of the large and growing Irish Catholic population. Ironically, the Orangemen were brought onto the streets to march in response to a large St Patrick's day parade by the Catholics. By the 1820's sectarian violence in the city had become routine and the religious division would soon become a political one too.

In the 1840's 'No Popery' politics arrived in the city,as the Liverpool Tories,the Anglican church and the Protestant working class forged an alliance. This pernicious manipulation of the Liverpool working class by the Tories would continue for another hundred years. Throughout the rest of the 19thc the Irish Catholic population would be demonised and subjected to, what can only be described as attempts to de-humanise them by Protestant politicians and the local press. The following is typical of the poisonous propaganda the Irish Catholics had to contend with, and this, from the supposedly Liberal, Liverpool Mercury newspaper;

It is not to be forgotten that much,very much of the Irish misery lies quite beyond the reach of 'remedial measures' of any government,being seated in the character of the Irish people. No government can change the idiosyncracies and habitudes of a nation and convert a slothful and reckless race into a thrifty,industrious and peaceful people.
The article goes on to claim that the Scots Irish of Ulster were superior to the 'pure' Irish.

The constant denigration of the Irish character, served a purpose,the intention was to deepen divisions between the working class.
Marx had noted;
The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of living.......this antagonism is kept alive by the pulpit and the comic papers, in short, by all means at the disposal of the ruling class.

The early 20thc was the nadir in relations between the two communties. Clergy from both sides were being stoned in the streests. Riots were becoming more serious and parts of the inner districts were starting to resemble religious ghettoes. In 1909, the Times reported;

The Roman Catholics have swept the Protestants from Scotland Rd and the Protestants have swept Netherfield Rd clear of Roman Catholics. It is almost incrdeible to regard in a great English city but these clearances are effected by actual violence.

In 1910 a public inquiry was held into a riot that had occurred in 1909. After the First World War the situation eased but violent clashes between Catholics and Protestants would continue up until the Second World War.

Meanwhile the die had been cast politically, Protestant working class -Tory, Catholic working class- Irish Nationalist or Labour. The Scotland Rd/Vauxhall area had elected an Irish Nationalist MP(the only one ever in Britain) in 1885, T.P. O'Connor, he was re-elected 5 times sitting as an independent after 1918.

Sectarianism in Liverpool wasn't confined to the inner districts by any means. Niether was it exclusive to the working class,the middle class mightn't have paraded around Woolton and Allerton banging drums,nevertheless,they were active participants behind the scenes. Rabid bigotry would not have continued as long as it did if there had been any resistance to it, ,there wasn't. The fact is,very many of those in positions of power were the beneficiaries of the sectarian divide.

Finally, in the 1950's steps were taken. Whether this was political expediency or even gerrymandering, nobody knows, but between 1955 and and 1970 most of the Everton district was flattened, other parts of the inner city were buldozed at the same time, the populations were decanted as far away as Winsford.

The last vestiges of overt sectarianism in Liverpool went in the early 1970's when a councillor for the Protestant Party( Yes, the Protestant Party) in Everton lost his seat.

The Orange and the Green, a folksy euphemism for inter-faith conflict, however it makes it more palatable to the public it's in.

Sectarianism played a major role in the life of Liverpudlians for well over a hundred years. It impacted on where people lived,sometimes where they worked and even who they could marry.
This is our history and the story should be told.

The Orange Lodges returning home to Liverpool from their 12th July celebrations in Southport in 2012

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Old May 16th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #29
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The Orange and the Green

I think these images come from Keayman's site http://inacityliving.piczo.com/


A tenement in the Scotland Rd area in the 1950's. I'm not sure what the celebrations are for, possibly a new parish priest.




Sectarian graffiti on a tenement building in the Scotland Rd area in the late 1960's. Incidentally the 'rebels' are a reference to Protestants. This type of graffiti was common in the Catholic areas of the city up until the early 1970's.




Celebrations at the opening of the Roman Catholic Cathedral. The Bullring tenements have since been converted into student accommodation.





Bells and Smells; A Catholic Childhood


I was brought up a Roman Catholic and I look back at my Catholic childhood with great fondness. I was born in 1961 in Bootle. The terraced street where we lived was predominantly Catholic, all my friends were Catholics. Nuns were both Head and Deputy Head of the primary school I attended. The nuns were probably feared more than they were liked by both children and parents alike! However, they were totally dedicated to the interests of the children they had been given the responsiblity to see educated. In this respect there were exemplars !

I became an Altar Boy when I was about 9 or 10, I absolutely loved it, loved especially serving at the winter,midweek night masses. I would arrive at an empty church, still in semi darkness with the statues casting long shadows and the flickering lights of the candles,it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up today.

I remember the great Catholic rituals of First Holy Communion and later Confirmation into the Roman Catholic Church. Seen through the eyes of a nine year old,it was a safe, comforting,devotional world, wholly Catholic.

I can't remember any emnity between local children about religious affiliation at that stage, although there was open hostility from Catholics towards the Orange Lodge, whose parades passed close by our home. By the time I was 12 or 13 however I was made aware of what bigotry was about. This was due to the anti Irish comments my Dublin born mother was periodically subjected to, something that went on well into the 1970's.

About the same time, early 1970's my dad would take one of my brothers and me to mass at the cathedral every other Sunday. I can't remember the route he took there but on the way home he would always drive down Netherfield Rd in Everton. This road, nearly a mile long, was a riot of Protestant graffiti. The walls were covered with Union flags and other Loyalist insignia, with lots of pledges of loyalty to the Belfast Protestants. But there were also murals, the main of course featured a triumphalist King Billy astride a white horse. Incidentally, all of this overtly sectarian daubing remained untouched well into the late 1970's , in fact it only disappeared when the area once again fell victim to the bulldozer.

My First Holy Communion photo.

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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:20 AM   #30
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I'd have thought the 'pray-for-rebels' would be reference to republicans in the struggle?
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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:32 AM   #31
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The Orange and the Green

I think these images come from Keayman's site http://inacityliving.piczo.com/


A tenement in the Scotland area in the 1950's. I'm not sure what the celebrations are for, possibly a new parish priest.




Sectarian graffiti on a tenement building in the Scotland Rd area in the late 1960's. Incidentally the 'rebels' are a reference to Protestants. This type of graffiti was common in the Catholic areas of the city up until the early 1970's.




Celebrations at the opening of the Roman Catholic Cathedral. The Bullring tenements have since been converted into student accommodation.





Bells and Smells; A Catholic Childhood


I was brought up a Roman Catholic and I look back at my Catholic childhood with great fondness. I was born in 1961 in Bootle. The terraced street where we lived was predominantly Catholic, all my friends were Catholics. Nuns were both Head and Deputy Head of the primary school I attended. The nuns were probably feared more than they were liked by both children and parents alike! However, they were totally dedicated to the interests of the children they had been given the responsiblity to see educated. In this respect there were exemplars !

I became an Altar Boy when I was about 9 or 10, I absolutely loved it, loved especially serving at the winter,midweek night masses. I would arrive at an empty church, still in semi darkness with the statues casting long shadows and the flickering lights of the candles,it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up today.

I remember the great Catholic rituals of First Holy Communion and later Confirmation into the Roman Catholic Church. Seen through the eyes of a nine year old,it was a safe, comforting,devotional world, wholly Catholic.

I can't remember any emnity between local children about religious affiliation at that stage, although there was open hostility from Catholics towards the Orange Lodge, whose parades passed close by our home. By the time I was 12 or 13 however I was made aware of what bigotry was about. This was due to the anti Irish comments my Dublin born mother was periodically subjected to, something that went on well into the 1970's.

About the same time, early 1970's my dad would take one of my brothers and me to mass at the cathedral every other Sunday. I can't remember the route he took there but on the way home he would always drive down Netherfield Rd in Everton. This road, nearly a mile long, was a riot of Protestant graffiti. The walls were covered with Union flags and other Loyalist insignia, with lots of pledges of loyalty to the Belfast Protestants. But there were also murals, the main of course featured a triumphalist King Billy astride a white horse. Incidentally, all of this overtly sectarian daubing remained untouched well into the late 1970's , in fact it only disappeared when the area once again fell victim to the bulldozer.

My First Holy Communion photo.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...-of-money.html
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Old May 17th, 2013, 07:13 AM   #32
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I'd have thought the 'pray-for-rebels' would be reference to republicans in the struggle?
Possibly could, although I'm inclined to think it's a religious reference. 'Rebels' meaning members of the breakaway churches, praying to bring them back into the 'fold'. Btw, the reason I showed this picture is to illustrate the fact that graffiti can still be sectarian and sometimes provocative even when religious.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 07:16 AM   #33
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Good link there,Medi.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 04:26 PM   #34
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Firstly, even though sectarianism is largely a thing of the past in Liverpool,residues remain. So I have proceeded with caution.
I don't think you have to scrape the surface too much to get a reaction with many people, I'll probably include myself in that. It's a fascinating subject but a very emotive one, it's definitely residing though as you say. Stunning pictures again.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 06:51 PM   #35
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I don't think you have to scrape the surface too much to get a reaction with many people, I'll probably include myself in that. It's a fascinating subject but a very emotive one, it's definitely residing though as you say. Stunning pictures again.
Fine post, Paul.
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Old May 18th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #36
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Are there any, exclusively, Lesbian bars or clubs in Liverpool? Or, indeed, any at all?
Although not exclusively gay, Jupiters on Hackins Hey has a large lesbian following. There are also the 'Girls Go Down' club nights which take place at various venues about town, although they may have taken a break as they seem to come in fits and starts. As for a fully lesbian venue, no...the city is ripe for one.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #37
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A Priest Prepares the Altar for Mass at St Anthony's RC Church,Scotland Rd,Liverpool, 19 05 2013

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Old May 19th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #38
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I've never been inside there, that's really impressive.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 09:05 PM   #39
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I've never been inside there, that's really impressive.
It is very impressive. I was visiting the crypt there today,it has catacombs from the 1830's when the church was founded.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #40
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It is very impressive. I was visiting the crypt there today,it has catacombs from the 1830's when the church was founded.
Can anyone go down there, I've always wanted to see them?
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