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Old July 20th, 2019, 03:12 AM   #601
skganji
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There is a story mentioned in the puranas, in which the torture of the demon brothers named sunda and upasunda had increased. They were received that they could only be killed by each other. For his destruction, Brahma created an amazing beauty of the world from the best things of the world. And when they saw him, they fought together to find him, and they were killed by each other.

(according to another story, the daughter of tilottama kashyap and ariṣṭā, who was a brahmin in the previous birth, who was cursed to be apsara in the crime of taking a bath. According to a second story, it was a woman named kubjā who got vaikunta from her penance. )

Keeping an awesome fact in front of you. Even though the story of sunda upasunda and tilottama is found in the Vedic Scriptures, it is also found in the (so called Vedic) civilization of Sindhu-Saraswati. Statistical was surprised to see a seal-Seal of 2500 years of 0 BC. This means clear. Sindhu-Saraswati civilization was also vedic.

Also posting a picture of the story that was opened in a temple in Cambodia for vinōdana.

Indus Seal with Tilottama, sunda and upasunda



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Old July 21st, 2019, 09:07 PM   #602
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i have also made some similar connection regarding the indian art and some indus seals, the motifs seem to have reappeared in the historical periods.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 08:30 PM   #603
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Indus script is logographic as per the latest research reveals.



https://www.thehindu.com/society/his...le28787527.ece

So far, inscriptions from the ancient civilisation have remained an enigma
A majority of the Indus Valley inscriptions were written logographically (by using word signs) and not by using phonograms (speech sounds units), claims a recent research paper published in Palgrave Communications, a Nature group journal.

The paper, titled Interrogating Indus inscription to unravel their mechanism of meaning conveyance, points out that the inscriptions can be compared to the structured messages found on stamps, coupons, tokens and currency coins of modern times.

Discovered from nearly 4,000 ancient inscribed objects, including seals, tablets, ivory rods, pottery shards, etc., the Indus inscriptions are one of the most enigmatic legacies of the Indus Valley civilization which have not been deciphered due to the absence of bilingual texts, extreme brevity of the inscriptions, and ignorance about the language(s) encoded by Indus script.

“This article mainly focuses on understanding how Indus inscriptions conveyed meanings, rather than on deciphering what they conveyed,” Bahata Ansumali Mukhopadhyay, the author of the paper, told The Hindu.

For the study, Ms. Mukhopadhyay has used the digitized corpus of Indus inscriptions compiled by well-known epigraphist and Indus scholar Iravatham Mahadevan. She studied it using computational analyses and various interdisciplinary measures.

Analysing the brevity of the inscriptions, the rigid positional preferences maintained by the signs of the inscriptions, and the co-occurrence of restriction patterns demonstrated by certain classes of Indus signs, she infers that such patterns can never be phonological co-occurrence restrictions. Phonological co-occurrence restrictions refers to two or more sound units that cannot be pronounced together. “A very compelling, nearly unassailable proof of the logographic nature of Indus inscriptions comes from the co-occurrence restriction patterns maintained within them,” the paper states.

In the publication that runs into 37 pages, Ms. Mukhopadhyay classifies the signs into nine functional classes. Based on various archaeological evidence, she further claims: “The inscribed seals and tablets were used in some administrative operation that controlled the commercial transactions prevalent in the trade-savvy settlements of the ancient Indus valley Civilisation. These inscriptions can be compared to the messages found on stamps, coupons, tokens and currency coins of modern times, where we expect formulaic texts that encode certain type of information in some pre-defined ways, rather than freely composed narrative.”

A common perception among some scholars is that the Indus script is logo-syllabic, where one symbol can be used as a word sign at one time and as a syllable-sign at another. This method, where a word-symbol also gets sometimes used only for its sound value, is called the rebus principle. For example, you can combine the pictures of a honey bee and a leaf to signify the word “belief” (bee+leaf). According to Ms. Mukhopadhyay, though many ancient scripts use rebus methods to generate new words, the inscriptions found on the Indus seals and tablets have not used rebus as the mechanism to convey meaning.

The researcher said that the popular hypothesis that the seals were inscribed with Proto-Dravidian or Proto-Indo-European names of the seal-owners does not hold water. It is not that no other Indus scholar has proposed the logographic theory before. Mr. Mahadevan himself tried to read these inscriptions logographically for decades, just that the logographic theory was not articulated well enough. Ms. Mukhopadhyay said her current work could serve as a basis in future for the deciphering of the script.
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Old September 6th, 2019, 08:49 PM   #604
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Another slap on the face of Aryan Immigration theory .

An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry from Steppe Pastoralists or Iranian Farmers. Another slap on the face of Aryan Immigration theory .





Our analysis of data from one individual from the IVC, in conjunction with 11 previously reported individuals from sites in cultural contact with the IVC, demonstrates the existence of an ancestry gradient that was widespread in farmers to the northwest of peninsular India at the height of the IVC, that had little if any genetic contribution from Steppe pastoralists or western Iranian farmers or herders, and that had a primary impact on the ancestry of later South Asians. While our study is sufficient to demonstrate that this ancestry profile was a common feature of the IVC, a single sample—or even the gradient of 12 likely IVC samples we have identified—cannot fully characterize a cosmopolitan ancient civilization.

Source : https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(19)30967-5
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Old September 9th, 2019, 08:09 AM   #605
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amusing thing is the ''hunter gatherers'' according to DNA study forming complex societies, more reason why DNA study should be taken with a grain of salt and how the naming of genetic groups fail to fit the profile.

as mark kenoyer stated that the common method of body disposal was cremation and not burial, so that would eliminate any chance of making any final conclusion based on DNA studies in south asia as well.

the report only mntions mitocondrial DNA and not y chromosomes which is the male part, the report is half genetics.

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Old September 9th, 2019, 10:52 AM   #606
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what kivisild said twenty years ago, seem to confirm the rakhigarhi DNA model



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/

this is also kivisild's analysis

Quote:
Kivisild et al. (2003): "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup."[11]
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Old September 10th, 2019, 08:31 AM   #607
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the report/research paper only focuses on maternal lineage/mtDNA and not paternal lineage/ Y DNA, surprised to see why paternal lineage is missing from the analysis, and based on half assed report, it is making pretty wide conclusions and generalizations.

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Old September 10th, 2019, 03:56 PM   #608
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https://www.harappa.com/answers/ther...if-not-why-not

Quote:
I am aware of two major initiatives to analyze DNA from Indus civilization skeletal material. First I would like to say that there are different kinds of DNA that can potentially be harvested from skeletal material. The nuclear DNA is the DNA that codes for the proteins that contribute to who we are and what we look like. The mitochondrial DNA is actually a single-stranded genome we inherit solely from our mothers. It exists in the mitochondria of the cell and numerous copies can be present so it is more often preserved in prehistoric material. This kind of DNA is really useful for looking at the origins of people, their migrations over time, and the relationships between communities because it is only passed down through the mother’s line and it does not recombine the way nuclear DNA does when we inherit it from both parents. Mitochondria DNA can tell us about women’s migrations. There is also a type of DNA that can tell us about male migrations, it is a part of the nuclear genome that is on the Y-chromosome. That DNA is only inherited from fathers.

So, back to the question of what kinds of DNA work is being done on Indus skeletons. Currently, Dr. Vasant Shinde is working on an analysis of mitochondrial DNA from 4 individuals excavated at Rakhigarhi. The DNA of 2 male, 1 female, and 1 child’s skeleton was compared with samples from a large number of people in South and West Asia. The work has not been published yet so we cannot speculate on the results
the mother lineage is being used to claim that there is no ''steppe'' ancestry and indo european people migrated later BS. The ''steppe ancestry'' will be shown in the male lineage and not female lineage.

kivisild report already proved way back that there was little change in indian DNA from mother's lineage in 12000 years.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...YwMDUxNzIwMgS2
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Old September 11th, 2019, 12:14 PM   #609
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based on matching U2 clade with the eleven individuals from ''central asia'' it has been decided that there was no ''steppe ancestry'' in south asia in indus valley people

Quote:
The individual we sequenced fits as a mixture of people related to ancient Iranians (the largest component) and Southeast Asian hunter-gatherers, a unique profile that matches ancient DNA from 11 genetic outliers from sites in Iran and Turkmenistan in cultural communication with the IVC. These individuals had little if any Steppe pastoralist-derived ancestry, showing that it was not ubiquitous in northwest South Asia during the IVC as it is today.
so not based on actual DNA from rakhigarhi but from eleven individuals from central asia and iran who have been ''matched'' it is concluded that there was no ''steppe ancestry''

probably again making assumption and generalizations based on repeated assumptions and nothing else.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(19)30967-5
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Old September 11th, 2019, 08:47 PM   #610
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This finding crashes all previous brain-fart conjectures from Western Cabal of people migration of races research pretenders and origin of language. Time to recall the esteemed positions held in high places and "fire" the gang of so-called experts. What a sham and untold horror these people unleashed on the world with faulty claims and a media chorus of followers.

First ancient DNA from Indus Valley civilization links its people to modern South Asians

Quote:
Researchers have successfully sequenced the first genome of an individual from the Harappan civilization, also called the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC). The DNA, which belongs to an individual who lived four to five millennia ago, suggests that modern people in India are likely to be largely descended from people of this ancient culture. It also offers a surprising insight into how farming began in South Asia, showing that it was not brought by large-scale movement of people from the Fertile Crescent where farming first arose. Instead, farming started in South Asia through local hunter-gatherers adopting farming.

The IVC, which at its height from 2600 to 1900 BCE covered a large swath of northwestern South Asia, was one of the world's first large-scale urban societies. Roughly contemporary to ancient Egypt and the ancient civilizations of China and Mesopotamia, it traded across long distances and developed systematic town planning, elaborate drainage systems, granaries, and standardization of weights and measures.
Dr. Niraj Rai interview:

https://youtu.be/U__2851gcR4

Quote:
Rai, who addressed the media, also spoke in favour of an ‘Out of India’ migration theory (OIT) -- their paper says Iranians and Indians had a common ancestor over 10,000 years ago. “There was a separation from that ancestor population and from that separation we have two groups. One is local and another gave four populations….(Iranian). In fact, we share some kind of ancestry with the Iranians but the ancestral population could be South Asian. We are finding the ‘Out of India’ theory, this proves it because in Shahr-i-Sokhta and Gonur (in Iran) scientists in the west have analysed 25 individuals and they have found that 10-12 individuals show different kinds of ancestry…. When we generated Rakhigarhi data and compared it, these two match completely; the same ancestral gradient. This is giving a hint of OIT. More results are required but at this moment we can certainly say that OIT is probably there,” he said.

“Multiple lines of evidence suggest that the genetic similarity of I6113 (the Rakhigarhi DNA) to the Indus Periphery Cline (close to the Indus Civilisation) individuals is due to gene flow from South Asia rather than in the reverse direction.”
Even Harvard's Reich meekly submits (down from his high-horse tactics) to actual proof instead of previous concoctions. BTW these esteemed universities bully others into submission since they have all the high tech gadgets and raw material of the world's gene DNA. India is coming up with its own lab equipment at Birbal Sahni Institute.



1) Indians are mostly descendants of Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization (SSC).
2) No major contribution from Steppes neither genetic wise nor material culture wise.
3) The Indus Valley people were indigenous & had horse-chariot technology circa 2500 BCE
4) By then, they had also independently invented & practiced agriculture for 1000s of years
5) The Indus Valley people were moving into Central Asia and Iran at that time
6) Since it was the "mature Harappan phase", they had a sophisticated civilization. Cities + a huge population + complex society!
7) They would have had a sophisticated language to support all of this
Oh, by the way: there is no South Indian component to the Rakhigarhi DNA. Only Andamanese. So, the language they spoke was certainly not Tamil or Munda or any Witzel-inspired nonsense. Most likely it was Sanskrit or proto-Sanskrit.

What a massive fall for the mule-ears and wheetzelers and other assorted criters peddling out-of-rear conjectures and holding fort on the world stage.
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Old September 11th, 2019, 09:43 PM   #611
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the indians arguing that the research paper is actually in their favour and debunks aryan migration are living in their delusion, and probably the people like niraj and shinde are empowering such delusion to keep the ball rolling and keeping indians esp left wing people and the govt happy.

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Old September 11th, 2019, 11:15 PM   #612
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The paper amusingly refutes the anatolian indo european hypothesis by using the same genetic argument which has also been used in support for dravidian origin theory of the indus valley civilization. The irony in the paper can be easily observed.





it should be noted that still today none of the anatolian turkic language speaking people have been noted distinguishing turkic genetic contribution after entire turkey was turkified in the past thousand years, so contrary to the claims made by this paper there are very big evidences of not any genetic influx accompanying the new language group, same goes to the iranians who have very little R1a contribution and predominant iranian farmer J haplogroup contrary of the claims of this paper.

The entire india was flocked by iranian and turkic people during the islamic era, but do indian people observe persian or turkic ancestry according to the claim made by this same paper?

the paper also states the R1a was not brought by the huns or the kushans, which means it goes for the aryan theory, if it wasn't it would not state max muller's 1500 BC date for R1a entry.

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Old September 11th, 2019, 11:26 PM   #613
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One indirect benefit of this paper is that it will massively discredit the dravidian origin theory of the indus valley civilization and it may also help disbandoning aryan migration theory itself because if dravidians are placed later, their migration will now be placed virtually at the same time period of the aryan or indo european migrations or even later which is not possible so the analysis of the paper is in direct conflict with the dravidian and aryan theories without realizing it.

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Old September 12th, 2019, 10:59 PM   #614
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The following article is in very easy to understand for common people. It is time to reject the European arrogance and deceit from Indian Society.


Research showed the Vedic culture was developed by indigenous people of South Asia,” Shinde asserted.

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...ry-759635.html

In a major challenge to the popular “Aryan Invasion” theory, an Indo-US team of researchers on Friday presented scientific evidence from the Harappan era to argue that such a large-scale migration from central Asia to India never happened.
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Old September 14th, 2019, 04:53 AM   #615
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Even evidence from the Harappan era rejects Aryan Migration Theory. Isn't it because of the arrogance and deceit of few European so called scholars this rubbish theory survives ?. Time to dust bin this Aryan Invasion theory from Indian text books.
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Old September 14th, 2019, 06:37 PM   #616
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I've noticed that both the proponents and opponents of this AIT/AMT use this wrong word Aryan lavishly which is a clearly a doctored word.

For the supporters of AIT, it is very well evident as to why they are so enthusiastic to spread the notion of AIT/AMT.

When the opponents of of AIT/AMT say that Indians are not the descendants of Aryan people, it kind of gives an impression that there exist(ed) a group of people called Aryan in some foreign land who are "originally' from their so-called "native land" called Steppes or some region in Central Asia-Europe.

Now, what we have to strongly oppose is the misappropriation of the word Arya (which is a vedic word) and the orchestration of the idea that there existed a group/race called Aryan in some part of the present day Europe/Central Asia.
Same is the case with the British invented racial classification called "Dravidian", which is another European invented term that is widely used by people with certain (un)hidden agenda.

The fact is there never existed a group anywhere in the Steppe/Central Asian region who used to call themselves Arya, let alone Aryan. There is no proof for this.

Now even if the present population of India is a mixture of multiple groups/waves of people who might have come to this region that
we call the Indian subcontinent over several thousands of years (including the 'undisputed' migration of the modern humans from Africa and their descendants from different regions who underwent genetic changes based on various environmental/ecological/geographical factors as well as their food habits), the word Arya originated in India from a group of people whose ancestors (could be multiple) who had settled at least many 1000s of years ago, here who gave rise to a particular culture which we can call the culture as described in the Vedas which was composed in India.
Similarly, Sanskrit is a language that whose origin and development took place in India whether or not it belongs to some language family. It is the same as child's identity is different from his/her parents. A child is not the same as his/her parents.

Let me explain this in a different way. Both the automobile and the ICE were invented in Europe. But it is said that the first kind of some Automatic transmissions was invented in Brazil/Canada. It is also believed that the wheel was first invented in the erstwhile Mesopotamia. Now every modern automobile runs on wheels. Just because wheels came first before the invention of Automobiles, ICE and automatic transmission and the fact that every automobile runs on wheels, is it correct to say that all these inventions came from Mesopotamia?

This is the nature of this evil lie called the AIT/AMT. It is made to create a whole lot of confusion, starting with the doctored word Aryan which was rendered a racial meaning. Now there are European words like Ire (of Ireland), Aries etc. but these have nothing to do with Arya as the word Arya is Indian in every sense.

Linguists, archaeologists and geneticists have together created a mess. A lot of guess work goes into all these theories.
It is not possible to trace all the way back to the origin of all of these culture and language and firmly chronicle the events of the past several thousands of years. This proto-Indo-European thing itself is a bullshit invention. Even the south Indian languages have a lot in relation with Sanskrit.

Let me explain how a confusion can be created. In Tamil (the "numero uno" "Dravidian language"), there is a word called Vanakkam (which is a way to greet or you say while welcoming someone).
Vanakkam and Welcome kind of sound very close. Does this mean Tamil originated from some Proto-European-"Dravidian" language.
Similarly, The number 1 (one) in English is 'Onnu or ondru' in Tamil (O in Onnu sounds O in 'Oh').

By the way, this "Dravidian" language classification was created by a European Christian missionary called Robert Caldwell. :/ Surprised?

Even the south Indian languages like Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada etc. have a significant Sanskrit ancestry. In that case how could these linguists assert that Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada belong to the so-called Dravidian language family when Sanskrit is classified under the so-called Indo-European Family?

These days, anyone can come up with any kind crap based on any kind of stupid guess work and call it any bullshit name. That is what many of these linguists have been doing, something that started with a language study became a linguistic-racial/genetic-archaeological-cultural-religious commotion.
And what should be done with those people who use this pandemonium called AIT/AMT to propagate their vested interests?

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Old September 14th, 2019, 07:55 PM   #617
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Quote:
Let me explain how a confusion can be created. In Tamil (the "numero uno" "Dravidian language"), there is a word called Vanakkam (which is a way to greet or you say while welcoming someone).
Vanakkam and Welcome kind of sound very close. Does this mean Tamil originated from some Proto-European-"Dravidian" language.
Similarly, The number 1 (one) in English is 'Onnu or ondru' in Tamil (O in Onnu sounds O in 'Oh').

By the way, this "Dravidian" language classification was created by a European Christian missionary called Robert Caldwell. :/ Surprised?

Even the south Indian languages like Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada etc. have a significant Sanskrit ancestry. In that case how could these linguists assert that Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada belong to the so-called Dravidian language family when Sanskrit is classified under the so-called Indo-European Family?

These days, anyone can come up with any kind crap based on any kind of stupid guess work and call it any bullshit name. That is what many of these linguists have been doing, something that started with a language study became a linguistic-racial/genetic-archaeological-cultural-religious commotion.
And what should be done with those people who use this pandemonium called AIT/AMT to propagate their vested interests?
a Hungariar linguist also created a list of words which were common between dravidian and indo aryan languages, and those words were not borrowed words, and the timeline of those linguistic development happened ''Before'' the alleged aryan or indo european migration, i think the linguist name was Harmatta.

The theory was immediately rejected based on aryan migration hypothesis.

As i have already pointed out, how the same genetic analogy which has been drawn for Dravidian migration based on iranian farmer genes has also been made for ''anatolian indo european'' and the simple reason being ''anatolian genes'' is different from european genes, so one way or another, the sanskrit or north indian language is genetically being transmitted one way or another, no other choice.

Even arguments based on Hydronym has not been accepted which states that if dravidians were present in north india, they must have left a lot of river and place names just like the celts and the gauls in europe, but this intelligent argument is rejected based on aryan migration theory as well. If aryan migrated, would have adopted a lot of dravidian or non sanskritic names for north indian rivers.

regards

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Old September 16th, 2019, 05:45 PM   #618
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भारत के मूल निवासी ते आर्य. This article in Hindi just says that the Aryans are Indigenous to India.


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Old September 25th, 2019, 12:47 AM   #619
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Material evidence of Vedic culture in Bactria.

1.3.10. Two material evidences are available connecting Bactria with Mahabharata. One is a silver coin dated at c.180 BCE and discovered near Oxus. The images on both the sides of the coin resemble Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma which is depicted in Figure 6 (Nagaswamy 2007).




Another is a circular seal, made of bronze, excavated in North Afghanistan and dated at 2000- 1500 BCE. It has the image of a bird-headed man holding snakes as depicted in Figure 7.

Figure 7: Bird faced man with snakes



The bird must be eagle, also known as Garuda. This image fulfils the iconographic features of Garuda given in Mayamatam. Mayamatam says (See Dagens 2007:869) that the image of Garuda is a Tārkṣya , with rounded eyes and two hands. His hands are either joined or resting slightly on his thighs. He has breast plates, fangs and his hair coiled into a crown. Tip of his nose is dark and serpents are his adornments. Figure 7 almost fulfils these stipulations, particularly the two hands slightly resting on thighs. The nose is like that of Garuda, the eagle. In a surprising link to Mahabharata, only Kṛṣṇa had Garuda-dhvajā.

The above two provide a strong case for the presence of Kṛṣṇa cult or memory of Kṛṣṇa in Bactria or the spread of people connected with Kṛṣṇa moving from India to Bactria.

This seal upsets the AIT chronology as it had appeared in Bactria 300 years before the Aryans started composing Rig Veda. Assuming that AIT chronology is right, it is questionable how this bird was known to Bactrians, even before Vedic people employed them in their hymns.

Rig Veda speaks about this bird as Garutmān, the strong-winged bird. In the famous Rig Vedic verse “ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadanti”, (That which is One, sages call by many names), ‘Garutmān’ is considered as the other names of the One God (Rig Veda 1.164.46). According to this hymn, the One God is also known as Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, Garutmān, Yama and Mātariśvān. Garuda is held on par with Indra in this hymn. How are the AIT theorists going to treat this feature within their concept and justify its appearance in the seal in Bactria even before the Aryans started composing Vedas?

Rig Veda : 1.164.46

इन्द्रं मित्रं वरुणमग्निमाहुरथो दिव्यः स सुपर्णो गरुत्मान |
एकं सद विप्रा बहुधा वदन्त्यग्निं यमं मातरिश्वानमाहुः ||

Translation : They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan.

Source : Problems in Assumptions and Methodology of Mahadevan’s Indus Decipherment
Jayasree Saranathan

Last edited by skganji; September 25th, 2019 at 12:52 AM.
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Old October 1st, 2019, 10:11 PM   #620
skganji
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Copper chariots of Sanauali from 2000 BCE.


The chariots found at Sinauli belong to Ochre Coloured Pottery culture. It belongs to late phase of OCP (around 2000 B.C.). The OCP people were using the copper hoard battle axes, harpoons and
antennae swords. It appears that they were importing copper and finished copper objects from all over India. Some of the rock paintings of Chitrakoot reveal that Vindhyan area, south of river Yamuna was invaded by copper hoard people. At that time, OCP people were using horses also for their war machinery. From these rock paintings, it is very clear that the OCP people were using these during the late phase of OCP. The find at Sinauli reinforces this conclusion because the chariots buried there are horse driven light chariots used in wars, sports and game. These chariots continued to be used by the local people as evident by Sanchi and Bharhut panels


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Last edited by skganji; October 4th, 2019 at 02:16 AM.
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