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Old September 20th, 2019, 12:20 AM   #11241
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Can't think of a two letter word that makes any sort of sense.

Can we have a clue what this maybe?

MTIA

Also, as I can't find this either, your post that says 'I was actually saying Liverpool is a big airport'.

MTIA *2.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 12:27 AM   #11242
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Some people are so touchy I was actually saying Liverpool is a big airport
Tsss what a bunch of **
Your rather rude, perhapes you should go elsewhere if you can't be polite .
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Old September 20th, 2019, 02:35 AM   #11243
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Wonder why Liverpool are spending between 30 and 50 million pounds on a new terminal to cater to based cruise ships? Someone should steer them to your post.

Talk is that Liverpool are in talks with three (possibly more) cruise lines who are contemplating Liverpool as a base. After all, Liverpool is where the cruise industry got it start.
My posting did not actually disagree with you. I'm all for the new cruise terminal and wish it every success. I wished the venture good luck at the end of my posting.

But I do know the cruise industry quite well, and the business opportunities I outlined are the reality. And yes - that is well worth investing £50m for. Liverpool's opportunity is two-fold: firstly, to attract more 'port of call' visits bringing high net worth daytripper spend to the city of Liverpool and surrounding attractions. And secondly, to support existing based ships and hopefully attract more. But the reality is that these ships will be primarily pitched towards the UK market. That's a valuable market well worth attracting, but it won't represent a flights bonanza for the airport. That is simple reality.

I'm aware of Liverpool's history in cruising. A close friend of mine wrote a biography of his celebrity grandmother who having found fame as an olympic athlete went on to invent the role of 'cruise director' aboard an early Cunard liner based out of Liverpool. This was around the time that shipping lines had to become more creative as air travel began to corner the market for point-to-point transatlantic business. They had to diversify and reinvent their product to cater for vacationers rather than migrants. So I know the history.

But to expect Liverpool to replicate the Miami / Fort Lauderdale model is to fundamentally misunderstand the business. US workers receive far less annual holiday than their UK and European counterparts. Thus, a seven day cruise is often the max they can manage. Maybe even five days at sea, allowing for a travel day either side. Many US customers need to fly to MIA/FLL due to the distances implied. The cruise offering is tailored to accommodate this. Florida is favoured for another reason linked with this: it is a destination-rich environment offering many exotic ports of call with great climate and minimal sailing times to reach them. So even short cruises can pack alot in. The big cruise lines own their own private beaches on the nearby Bahamas - eg. Princess Cays on Eleuthera. Parties and barbecues are laid on at these. Generally a different ship visits each day. Royal Caribbean have a similar private beach call of their own. Then the ships take in a couple of nearby Caribbean island ports, or maybe Cozumel / Cancun. And Key West is another popular stop. All work to make short cruise itineraries varied and appealing.

But the market from the UK is quite different. These mass market time-poor American middle-class workers won't be flying over here for their week at sea. Though a wealthy (often retired) minority will travel to Europe, obviously - and generally stay longer. But they're more likely to be based out of Barcelona, Piraeus or even Southampton than any port in the North of England. Our climate isn't a draw for them and sailing times to cruising hotspots aren't competitive from their perspective.

Geographically, the port of Liverpool is convenient for British Isles circumnavigation itineraries and some trips upto Iceland or the Norwegian fjords. Itineraries headed to the Med are predominantly the preserve of British seniors who prefer not to fly. They're happy to accept the penalty of two or three sea-days each way to reach the Med and return from it. It suits them just to enjoy the facilities aboard. But there is no reason for overseas customers to do this. They're better off flying direct to Barcelona, Palma or Piraeus and skip the sea days down through Biscay. They maximise their time that way. But on certain itineraries it makes sense for them to visit Liverpool as a one day enroute port of call. And that is very valuable business for the city to target. There are some high spenders aboard the more upmarket ships and Liverpool offers the visitor attractions to interest them in an excursion.

The £50m cruise terminal is wholly justified based on the market opportunities I've outlined. But if you're holding out for high volumes of North American passengers starting their itineraries from Liverpool you will be disappointed. Continental European customers are also more likely to select either a port close to their own home, or a fly-cruise via Palma / Barcelona / Piraeus / Savona and the like. They're in the good weather zone straight away and close to other popular cruise ship ports of call.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 07:38 AM   #11244
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I don't think anyone is saying increases at the cruise terminal will result in a flight bonanza, but having an airport so close to the port I can't see why this would not be beneficial to both as time goes on.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 08:34 AM   #11245
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Ryanair now have their Bari and Milan flights available for next summer, hopefully Pisa will be following on.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 12:11 PM   #11246
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Copenhagen route by Ryanair operates to May then restarts in September.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 01:09 PM   #11247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shed-on-a-Pole View Post
My posting did not actually disagree with you. I'm all for the new cruise terminal and wish it every success. I wished the venture good luck at the end of my posting.

But I do know the cruise industry quite well, and the business opportunities I outlined are the reality. And yes - that is well worth investing £50m for. Liverpool's opportunity is two-fold: firstly, to attract more 'port of call' visits bringing high net worth daytripper spend to the city of Liverpool and surrounding attractions. And secondly, to support existing based ships and hopefully attract more. But the reality is that these ships will be primarily pitched towards the UK market. That's a valuable market well worth attracting, but it won't represent a flights bonanza for the airport. That is simple reality.

I'm aware of Liverpool's history in cruising. A close friend of mine wrote a biography of his celebrity grandmother who having found fame as an olympic athlete went on to invent the role of 'cruise director' aboard an early Cunard liner based out of Liverpool. This was around the time that shipping lines had to become more creative as air travel began to corner the market for point-to-point transatlantic business. They had to diversify and reinvent their product to cater for vacationers rather than migrants. So I know the history.

But to expect Liverpool to replicate the Miami / Fort Lauderdale model is to fundamentally misunderstand the business. US workers receive far less annual holiday than their UK and European counterparts. Thus, a seven day cruise is often the max they can manage. Maybe even five days at sea, allowing for a travel day either side. Many US customers need to fly to MIA/FLL due to the distances implied. The cruise offering is tailored to accommodate this. Florida is favoured for another reason linked with this: it is a destination-rich environment offering many exotic ports of call with great climate and minimal sailing times to reach them. So even short cruises can pack alot in. The big cruise lines own their own private beaches on the nearby Bahamas - eg. Princess Cays on Eleuthera. Parties and barbecues are laid on at these. Generally a different ship visits each day. Royal Caribbean have a similar private beach call of their own. Then the ships take in a couple of nearby Caribbean island ports, or maybe Cozumel / Cancun. And Key West is another popular stop. All work to make short cruise itineraries varied and appealing.

But the market from the UK is quite different. These mass market time-poor American middle-class workers won't be flying over here for their week at sea. Though a wealthy (often retired) minority will travel to Europe, obviously - and generally stay longer. But they're more likely to be based out of Barcelona, Piraeus or even Southampton than any port in the North of England. Our climate isn't a draw for them and sailing times to cruising hotspots aren't competitive from their perspective.

Geographically, the port of Liverpool is convenient for British Isles circumnavigation itineraries and some trips upto Iceland or the Norwegian fjords. Itineraries headed to the Med are predominantly the preserve of British seniors who prefer not to fly. They're happy to accept the penalty of two or three sea-days each way to reach the Med and return from it. It suits them just to enjoy the facilities aboard. But there is no reason for overseas customers to do this. They're better off flying direct to Barcelona, Palma or Piraeus and skip the sea days down through Biscay. They maximise their time that way. But on certain itineraries it makes sense for them to visit Liverpool as a one day enroute port of call. And that is very valuable business for the city to target. There are some high spenders aboard the more upmarket ships and Liverpool offers the visitor attractions to interest them in an excursion.

The £50m cruise terminal is wholly justified based on the market opportunities I've outlined. But if you're holding out for high volumes of North American passengers starting their itineraries from Liverpool you will be disappointed. Continental European customers are also more likely to select either a port close to their own home, or a fly-cruise via Palma / Barcelona / Piraeus / Savona and the like. They're in the good weather zone straight away and close to other popular cruise ship ports of call.
You knowledge of the cruise industry, and it's origins, is quite extensive but also, quite selective.

You are also correct when you point out the reason for the Medi ports popularity being in/close to the fine weather cruising. This is exactly the reason Mickey Arison turned the Port of Miami from a reefer port to the worlds busiest cruise port. He could fly people from NYC, Boston, Detroit, Philly, Chicago and even Montreal and Toronto to Miami in a couple of hours, for week long cruises. Effectively doubling his market and eliminating the two days (each way) of iffy weather and N Atlantic seas between New York and Cape Hatteras and, doing so, cut his base port fees. New York being a very expensive port.

Airlines also took advantage and, looking for cheaper landing fees, utilised FLL, turning that airport from a private and executive airport into a full fledged commercial airport and, cruise lines turned Port Everglades into the second busiest cruise based port serving the Caribbean bound cruisers.

I have an extensive history in cruising, having sailed aboard Arison's (Carnival Cruise Lines) first ships (ex Empress's of Britain and Canada) and my last cruise in April-May was number 60 and took me from Port Everglades to Liverpool. Most of my cruises are of at least two weeks duration involve ocean passages as opposed to island hopping.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 01:34 PM   #11248
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Copenhagen route by Ryanair operates to May then restarts in September.
This definitely correct? I flew with them in July so more than likely its season is May to September if anything
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Old September 20th, 2019, 02:47 PM   #11249
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I think the new cruise terminal will bring some co operation with Liverpool Airport.
When Liverpool becomes a base for cruise ships, the airport will benefit. Cruise ships are captive (on the Mersey) to tidal tables which leaves very little margin for error. Passenger groups delays between airport and ship can be mitigated somewhat by shortening the distance. Meaning using LPL instead of MAN for charter groups. I remember when Eastern Airlines first started flying cruise charter groups for a Port Everglades departure, into MIA. Then when FLL became an option, offered scheduled flights on sailing days into that south Florida airport. MIA/FLL are less than 20 minutes apart along I-95. It takes me longer to go between DTW's McNamara and North terminals.

I'm positive LPL will benefit from having cruise ships based in the Port of Liverpool. By how much? That's any ones guess but, I'm also positive that those predicted figures have already been crunched and factored in to the decision to invest in a cruise ship terminal and the investments payback time must also have been found to be favourable. I am very optimistic for some increase in pax throughput at LPL due to the port becoming a base for cruise ships.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 04:39 PM   #11250
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Passenger groups delays between airport and ship can be mitigated somewhat by shortening the distance. Meaning using LPL instead of MAN for charter groups.
What charter groups are these? Where are they all coming from? For reasons I've explained comprehensively, cruise ships based on the Mersey will be marketed overwhelmingly to the UK market. If you're expecting loads of cruise-related charter flights for these ships you're setting yourself up for disappointment. This isn't a LPL v MAN thing. Both airports can anticipate very slim pickings if they're expecting volume business of this kind. The UK market is not dispersed in the way the US market using MIA/FLL is. Customers are just a drive, a coach ride or a train journey away. And one of the big selling points for current Mersey-based cruises (Fred Olsen / CMV) is that much-promoted slogan: "NO-FLY!!!"

Quote:
I'm also positive that those predicted figures have already been crunched and factored in to the decision to invest in a cruise ship terminal and the investments payback time must also have been found to be favourable.
Those numbers have indeed been crunched. And the verdict is that the investment in the cruise terminal is wholly justified. To attract the markets I have outlined. UK-domiciled cruise customers. And additional 'port of call' day visits. Just remember what volume of spend a 3000-berth cruise ship visiting for the day represents to the region. This is the payback. Yes, definitely worth investing for. And I look forward to seeing the results - over and above what we already see.

Quote:
You knowledge of the cruise industry, and it's origins, is quite extensive but also, quite selective.
I could say the same. You have worked on or travelled extensively aboard cruise ships. But what is your experience of marketing cruise holidays? Have you researched who the customers are, and how their preferences vary by brand, onboard experience and that vital "No-Fly!!!" tag? If they're happy to fly, they'll generally do so and board in Palma or Piraeus. Even cruises to the Fjords offer better-located departure points for overseas guests. Bergen ... or even Newcastle. Plenty of North European ports to choose from. Southampton has transatlantic itineraries sewn up for overseas customers, and flights to London work well for this business - very competitive air fares. And cruises circumnavigating the British Isles work from any number of UK ports. Including from Southampton, Portsmouth and Dover which again offer ample supporting flight choice for guests resident overseas.

For departures from Liverpool, the core turnaround market is people like us. Resident in the UK. And the business we represent justifies the investment.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 04:59 PM   #11251
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This definitely correct? I flew with them in July so more than likely its season is May to September if anything
May 29 end ...recommence 7 Sept...I think football traffic is quite important to this route.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 05:33 PM   #11252
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What charter groups are these? Where are they all coming from? For reasons I've explained comprehensively, cruise ships based on the Mersey will be marketed overwhelmingly to the UK market. [B]
Yes I know, but already, on Fred Olson ex Liverpool, I have met guest from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Luxemburg, France and Austria. And if you read the last paragraph of my post, you will find all the information about my expectations or, lack thereof for LPL.

PS: My first cruise was as a bellboy aboard Caronia out of Liverpool. My sixty (60) cruises does not include any cruises I ever did as a crew member.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 06:37 PM   #11253
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Those numbers have indeed been crunched. And the verdict is that the investment in the cruise terminal is wholly justified. To attract the markets I have outlined. UK-domiciled cruise customers. And additional 'port of call' day visits. Just remember what volume of spend a 3000-berth cruise ship visiting for the day represents to the region. This is the payback. Yes, definitely worth investing for.[/B]
If the purpose is to just attract "visit" calls, would certainly indicate the Liverpool Cruise Ship Terminal to be a total waste of money.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 10:26 PM   #11254
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If the purpose is to just attract "visit" calls, would certainly indicate the Liverpool Cruise Ship Terminal to be a total waste of money.
But that isn't what I suggested, is it? I noted that the target turnaround market is "people like us ... resident in the UK." The cruise terminal is justified because of the business we represent. Our spend is valuable too.

As I stated earlier: "Liverpool's opportunity is two-fold." The turnaround market aimed primarily at UK-domiciled customers. And the high-value daytrippers on port-of-call excursions.

Note that in terms of big picture infrastructure projects, £50m isn't that large a sum. The facility is a great asset and well worth providing, but in terms of investment there are London rail stations we've scarcely heard of being refurbished at far greater cost than that. Liverpool's new cruise terminal doesn't need to replicate the success of Port Everglades or Barcelona to make that relatively modest level of investment worthwhile.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 11:13 PM   #11255
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Liverpool's new cruise terminal doesn't need to replicate the success of Port Everglades or Barcelona to make that relatively modest level of investment worthwhile.
What I was intimating and using Port Everglades as an example.

I was aboard the first cruise ship out of Port Everglades 'The Victoria' a Chandris Line vessel (now Celebrity), which used ex Union Castle Line ships, 'The Victoria' being the ex Dunaten Castle. Chandris Line departed Miami due to cost, and operated from Port Everglades through a Marquee tent, ala present Liverpool facilities.

I still maintain LPL will benefit from Liverpool becoming a base port for cruise ships. I am NOT claiming LPL will rival MAN or any other airport but, will benefit from the port being a based port. I travel through Dublin between 4 and 6 times a year on my way to Liverpool from the US and have, on many, occasion sat next to people joining cruise's in Dublin Port.
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Old September 21st, 2019, 12:06 AM   #11256
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I am NOT claiming LPL will rival MAN or any other airport but, will benefit from the port being a based port.
I haven't argued on the basis of which airport will do better either. On the contrary, I have contended that neither airport will see a significant rise in business attributable to the new cruise terminal. The overwhelming majority of turnaround business for Mersey-based vessels will be sourced from the UK domestic market (which is fine - nothing wrong with that). The big selling-point for Liverpool cruise departures is: "NO-FLY!!!"

Anyway, we risk recycling old arguments now if we continue with this discussion. I suggest that we agree to disagree and allow other readers to reach their own conclusions.
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Old September 21st, 2019, 01:33 AM   #11257
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Convos happening on the Man thread also
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Old September 21st, 2019, 03:13 PM   #11258
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With the news of expansion at Liverpool docks, how long can it be before we see a hub link from the airport, it would be useful for ship crews.
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Old September 21st, 2019, 03:35 PM   #11259
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With the news of expansion at Liverpool docks, how long can it be before we see a hub link from the airport, it would be useful for ship crews.
We will have to overcome all the usual obstructive excuses first, not to mention 'northwesterism' excuses that Manchester airport is there, so why do we want......etc.
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Old September 21st, 2019, 03:38 PM   #11260
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With the news of expansion at Liverpool docks, how long can it be before we see a hub link from the airport, it would be useful for ship crews.
With shipping on the Mersey tied to tide condition, the vagaries of the M56 can pose a problem for crews arriving by air and having to be aboard ship and ready to sail at full flood. I would think, for crew rotation of based ships, LPL would be the arrival airport of choice.
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