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Old September 20th, 2019, 09:06 AM   #13301
Macred
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From the Echo today...

"Professor Michael Parkinson, Associate Pro-Vice Chancellor for Civic Engagement at the University of Liverpool and an advisor to national governments and the European Commission on urban affairs, also commented on the consultation process."

He added: "Everton’s consultation and engagement has seen them live up to their reputation as the People’s Club. There has been a real rigour and depth to their engagement over the last two years – so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that their plans have been received so well."

"The club has acted in a clear and transparent way and genuinely reached out to fans, the business community and local people to ensure that the dialogue around the scheme is meaningful and in-depth.Some of the immersive technologies they have used to bring their plans to life, coupled with the breadth and depth of the engagement activities can provide valuable lessons for organisations undertaking engagement and consultation processes."

I wish LFC showed this same level of transparency, there appears no reason as to why not other than they fear a public back lash regardless of whether or not the backlash is justifiable. A fait-accompli will be delivered and that will be that subject to minor amendments. Another case in point is the lack of information regarding the progress with the training ground too. All very disappointing from a club that seems to be getting so much else right on and off the pitch and the more so when our neighbours can claim the moral high ground in this area.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 04:24 PM   #13302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macred View Post
From the Echo today...

"Professor Michael Parkinson, Associate Pro-Vice Chancellor for Civic Engagement at the University of Liverpool and an advisor to national governments and the European Commission on urban affairs, also commented on the consultation process."

He added: "Everton’s consultation and engagement has seen them live up to their reputation as the People’s Club. There has been a real rigour and depth to their engagement over the last two years – so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that their plans have been received so well."

"The club has acted in a clear and transparent way and genuinely reached out to fans, the business community and local people to ensure that the dialogue around the scheme is meaningful and in-depth.Some of the immersive technologies they have used to bring their plans to life, coupled with the breadth and depth of the engagement activities can provide valuable lessons for organisations undertaking engagement and consultation processes."

I wish LFC showed this same level of transparency, there appears no reason as to why not other than they fear a public back lash regardless of whether or not the backlash is justifiable. A fait-accompli will be delivered and that will be that subject to minor amendments. Another case in point is the lack of information regarding the progress with the training ground too. All very disappointing from a club that seems to be getting so much else right on and off the pitch and the more so when our neighbours can claim the moral high ground in this area.

Mac, universities are amongst the sleaziest places on Earth.
This isn't transparency from that small club. Its a rentagob at work.

LFC historically were unable to be as transparent as they wanted. Because a tiny proportion of the neighbours and a fair few councillors were hell bent on destroying and frustrating anything positive from LFC. I'm no fan of FSG, but I realise what they are up against at numerous sections of LCC.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 04:34 PM   #13303
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He's not wrong; workshops with the architect, consultations about the project in the city, at least two different surveys, a decent website, dedicated app, and most of that was before the designs were released. They've yet to have the actual public consultation on the final plans and yet they've already done all that.

You go onto EFC forums and some of them are thinking the level of consultation is some conspiracy to keep kicking the can down the road. In truth, it's been quite impressive.

Of course, there's a difference between building a big new stadium where there wasn't one before and adding a few thousand seats to a stadium that's been in place for over a century - the former of course needs more consultation - but I can see why Macred makes the comparison.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 05:03 PM   #13304
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I agree - LFC could be more transparent, but I don't think they'd be rewarded by doing so. Plus, the small group of people, basically this forum, who truly follow the progress of these projects is really not worth the investment for transparency in terms of progress updates.

Not to mention, comparing what LFC has to do with everton is troublesome to me, for one, LFC have to navigate finding space amongst homes. Think it is safe to say that LFC have to play the game of politics much more carefully than everton have to.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 05:12 PM   #13305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH View Post
He's not wrong; workshops with the architect, consultations about the project in the city, at least two different surveys, a decent website, dedicated app, and most of that was before the designs were released. They've yet to have the actual public consultation on the final plans and yet they've already done all that.

You go onto EFC forums and some of them are thinking the level of consultation is some conspiracy to keep kicking the can down the road. In truth, it's been quite impressive.

Of course, there's a difference between building a big new stadium where there wasn't one before and adding a few thousand seats to a stadium that's been in place for over a century - the former of course needs more consultation - but I can see why Macred makes the comparison.
Not saying that a club should be criticized for doing so much, but don't think a website and an app is really all that commendable. Consultations with architects seems like the bare minimum, surveys too. Not to say it isn't a good sign, but don't think we can really criticize LFC for not being so transparent in comparison, at least not yet.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 06:34 PM   #13306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macred View Post
From the Echo today...

"Professor Michael Parkinson, ..."

He added: "Everton’s consultation and engagement has seen them live up to their reputation as the People’s Club. There has been a real rigour and depth to their engagement over the last two years – so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that their plans have been received so well."

"The club has acted in a clear and transparent way and genuinely reached out to fans, the business community and local people to ensure that the dialogue around the scheme is meaningful and in-depth. Some of the immersive technologies they have used to bring their plans to life, coupled with the breadth and depth of the engagement activities can provide valuable lessons for organisations undertaking engagement and consultation processes."

...
Transparency?

No, it's all wild fantasy or a big veil! EFC has withheld from fans until today the most important information.

Everton can never build a new stadium and maintain ticket prices. If they want to finance the stadium (500m), they have to triple the ticket prices. EFC needs at least a matchday income of 60-70m to finance the stadium and losses from ongoing operations (2017/18 loss 13m)

Everton had a matchday income of 16m in 2017/18. For comparison: LFC 74m. If Everton builds a new stadium with 52,000 seats, the matchday income will only increase by 5m to 21m when the tickets are sold at the current price level. That would be far too little and not even sufficient to cover the ongoing losses.

Therefore, the most important questions that need to be openly discussed, if really transparency is sought:

Are the Everton fans as enthusiastic about a new stadium as they learn that in the future they will have to pay triple for an Everton ticket on average and will they do it?

Everton is a local club and has more low-income fans who can not afford the LFC ticket prices, so more teens.

Can Everton triple ticket prices and still fill a 52000 stadium? I can not imagine that. The kids can not pay that.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 07:27 PM   #13307
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Originally Posted by GerLfcFan View Post
Transparency?

No, it's all wild fantasy or a big veil! EFC has withheld from fans until today the most important information.

Everton can never build a new stadium and maintain ticket prices. If they want to finance the stadium (500m), they have to triple the ticket prices. EFC needs at least a matchday income of 60-70m to finance the stadium and losses from ongoing operations (2017/18 loss 13m)

Everton had a matchday income of 16m in 2017/18. For comparison: LFC 74m. If Everton builds a new stadium with 52,000 seats, the matchday income will only increase by 5m to 21m when the tickets are sold at the current price level. That would be far too little and not even sufficient to cover the ongoing losses.

Therefore, the most important questions that need to be openly discussed, if really transparency is sought:

Are the Everton fans as enthusiastic about a new stadium as they learn that in the future they will have to pay triple for an Everton ticket on average and will they do it?

Everton is a local club and has more low-income fans who can not afford the LFC ticket prices, so more teens.

Can Everton triple ticket prices and still fill a 52000 stadium? I can not imagine that. The kids can not pay that.
Do not worry, it will all be paid for by the 1.4 million additional visitors to the city that the stadium will generate... so existing fans will not be getting in the stadium anyway... as everyone will be from far flung lands willing to pay top dollar... and thus 15,000 jobs will be created. Not sure if current matchday goers who support the stadium have realised that 1.4mill divided by home matches, say 27k... is 52k i.e the capacity of the new ground.

https://www.insidermedia.com/insider...o-citys-appeal

So while i am for transparency... some people also need to realise what they are seeing. They have been told but ignoring it.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 07:35 PM   #13308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyNW View Post
I agree - LFC could be more transparent, but I don't think they'd be rewarded by doing so. Plus, the small group of people, basically this forum, who truly follow the progress of these projects is really not worth the investment for transparency in terms of progress updates.

Not to mention, comparing what LFC has to do with everton is troublesome to me, for one, LFC have to navigate finding space amongst homes. Think it is safe to say that LFC have to play the game of politics much more carefully than everton have to.
Here what you say but 6.5 million have looked at this thread... and that is us feeding of scraps. Over 22million looked at Spurs thread as the club provided information and they probably had even better engagement on their own websites - I only found this site by accident many moons ago. And building a page on a website is pretty simple and posting some pics, getting a drone up etc.... thinking of the training ground progress etc.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 10:46 PM   #13309
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Originally Posted by Macred View Post
Here what you say but 6.5 million have looked at this thread... and that is us feeding of scraps. Over 22million looked at Spurs thread...
For the record those views do not constitute unique viewers, and depending on how you progress back and forth to different pages on the site your visit to the thread could count as multiple "views." The total number of individuals who've contributed to this Anfield thread discussion is about 530, and I'm guessing that group constitutes 25% or more of those views as I alone have checked this site at least 200 times just to monitor the thread for any needed moderating. So, apply context to any statistic.
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Old September 21st, 2019, 10:56 PM   #13310
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I check daily, I didnít for a while but I must have been here several hundred times as well
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Old September 22nd, 2019, 11:54 AM   #13311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macred View Post
Do not worry, it will all be paid for by the 1.4 million additional visitors to the city that the stadium will generate... so existing fans will not be getting in the stadium anyway... as everyone will be from far flung lands willing to pay top dollar... and thus 15,000 jobs will be created. Not sure if current matchday goers who support the stadium have realised that 1.4mill divided by home matches, say 27k... is 52k i.e the capacity of the new ground.

https://www.insidermedia.com/insider...o-citys-appeal

So while i am for transparency... some people also need to realize what they are seeing. They have been told but ignoring it.

You are completely right. It's laughable to expect 1.4 million additional Everton football fans from outside.

Nevertheless, your bill is very interesting, pointing to something else that is against the interests of LFC and explains recent LCC decisions.

Are the 1.4 million totally unrealistic if the new Everton Stadium is planned and built explicitly and in large numbers for additional events, other sports, concerts, etc.?

If such events are approved in large numbers in the new Everton Stadium in the future, cruise ships can bring the spectators. At the same time, LCC does all, to block the development of Anfield for such events (with the pretense of consideration for the neighbors). I think that's really behind it and explains a lot.
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Old September 22nd, 2019, 01:05 PM   #13312
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Regarding the ongoing feasibility study for how/what to build at the ARE, could one of the sticking points be how we integrate any new design with the sloping edge of the new main stand. Remember the whole “it keeps the noise” in argument? That’s all well and good for a single discrete stand, but it makes it extremely challenging to integrate it to other sides. (If I was being cynical, I would also say it doesn’t highlight a strategic full stadium master plan either, but let’s not spoil a perfectly good Sunday morning on that. I should also point out that I love the new main stand and how the landscaping has been done in the immediate vicinity.)
Also, the slope of the Main Stand roof will significantly effect how high any ARE stand can go. The new Main Stand dominates and inhibits potential designs for the ARE. You can’t go as high as the main stand, otherwise those at the back on the Main Stand side won’t be able to see the opposite goal mouth.

The same will happen on the KK side too, where the roof of the KK Stand will get in the way of those higher than it in any new & taller ARE devt, and I’m not sure that chopping a bit of that roof will help either.

It just seems that so far there have been a number of red herrings (finish new training complex, one capex project at a time, letting PP run down, will/has the Main Stand been a rip roaring success, can it be used for concerts, will the locals be upset by extra people pissing in doorways, ingress/egress for more people, etc). In my rather simple brain, we are (and have always been) positioned in the middle of a Victorian housing estate, one of the most iconic sports institutions in the world, swimming with cash and financial clout if we prefer to borrow money and desperate to increase capacity. I love how the club has been stabilised now and 10/10 on that score, but come on, enough is enough already, let’s crack on with bringing Anfield up to date on all 4 sides.

And for God sake, pay the locals a fair wedge so we can look in to buying more land around the bloody ground and making it a thing of beauty on all 4 sides. This nonsense about not being able to shift WBR back, and those god awful new houses their building! Who in their right mind sanctioned those bloody things? Just pay the Home Baked people and The Parks a sizeable chunk and build them replacements 50 feet away so we can sort out The Kop. It’s hardly rocket science, but it is one hell of a time wasting exercise in faffing and indecisiveness. Oh, and while I’m on my high horse, why the bloody hell didn’t we build the new club store where the Doubletree was going to go? Then finish the landscaping there too and complete the new 96 Avenue all the way back as planned. It still looks like a dogs dinner all round that area. It’s more than bottom line profits, this is home for a lot of people, let’s show some pride and respect and plough a few bob in to giving the area the facelift it deserves.

Amen lol
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Old September 22nd, 2019, 05:32 PM   #13313
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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...adium-16955452

Story in Echo today about Anfield Train Station and Anfield rail link
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Old September 22nd, 2019, 06:52 PM   #13314
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Sounds like Steve Rotherham is talking about reopening the Canada Dock Branch Line:


Mayor Rotheram said: ďIf our region received the level of subsidy that London and the South get, we could deliver truly transformational infrastructure improvements in double quick time.

ďI would love to see a new Anfield station, along with an expansion of our rail network, to bring passenger services to Tuebrook and Fairfield. Reopening the Bootle Branch Line is something which I am committed to through our Long Term Rail Strategy.






On 16 July 2007 the Liverpool Daily Post reported that Liverpool F.C. may partially fund the reopening of the line to passenger services providing a direct rail link to the proposed Stanley Park Stadium however this project has since been dropped by the club. This was highlighted on the Network Rail North West development plan as a potential project to be undertaken by Network Rail, rather than Liverpool F.C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Dock_Branch
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Old September 22nd, 2019, 07:45 PM   #13315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macred View Post
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...adium-16955452

Story in Echo today about Anfield Train Station and Anfield rail link

This is about 15-20 years off, the stadium expansion isnít. I never understand why it takes so long to do these things.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 10:03 AM   #13316
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This is about 15-20 years off, the stadium expansion isnít. I never understand why it takes so long to do these things.
We need Elon Musk on the job... there is a bloke who gets things done!!

This today in the Mail about safe standing at OT etc...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Trafford.html

But may at some point impact on Anfield design decisions
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 10:11 AM   #13317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean_Buxton View Post
Regarding the ongoing feasibility study for how/what to build at the ARE, could one of the sticking points be how we integrate any new design with the sloping edge of the new main stand. Remember the whole ďit keeps the noiseĒ in argument? Thatís all well and good for a single discrete stand, but it makes it extremely challenging to integrate it to other sides. (If I was being cynical, I would also say it doesnít highlight a strategic full stadium master plan either, but letís not spoil a perfectly good Sunday morning on that. I should also point out that I love the new main stand and how the landscaping has been done in the immediate vicinity.)
Also, the slope of the Main Stand roof will significantly effect how high any ARE stand can go. The new Main Stand dominates and inhibits potential designs for the ARE. You canít go as high as the main stand, otherwise those at the back on the Main Stand side wonít be able to see the opposite goal mouth.

The same will happen on the KK side too, where the roof of the KK Stand will get in the way of those higher than it in any new & taller ARE devt, and Iím not sure that chopping a bit of that roof will help either.

It just seems that so far there have been a number of red herrings (finish new training complex, one capex project at a time, letting PP run down, will/has the Main Stand been a rip roaring success, can it be used for concerts, will the locals be upset by extra people pissing in doorways, ingress/egress for more people, etc). In my rather simple brain, we are (and have always been) positioned in the middle of a Victorian housing estate, one of the most iconic sports institutions in the world, swimming with cash and financial clout if we prefer to borrow money and desperate to increase capacity. I love how the club has been stabilised now and 10/10 on that score, but come on, enough is enough already, letís crack on with bringing Anfield up to date on all 4 sides.

And for God sake, pay the locals a fair wedge so we can look in to buying more land around the bloody ground and making it a thing of beauty on all 4 sides. This nonsense about not being able to shift WBR back, and those god awful new houses their building! Who in their right mind sanctioned those bloody things? Just pay the Home Baked people and The Parks a sizeable chunk and build them replacements 50 feet away so we can sort out The Kop. Itís hardly rocket science, but it is one hell of a time wasting exercise in faffing and indecisiveness. Oh, and while Iím on my high horse, why the bloody hell didnít we build the new club store where the Doubletree was going to go? Then finish the landscaping there too and complete the new 96 Avenue all the way back as planned. It still looks like a dogs dinner all round that area. Itís more than bottom line profits, this is home for a lot of people, letís show some pride and respect and plough a few bob in to giving the area the facelift it deserves.

Amen lol
The new ARE is very likely going to be the exact same height as the Main. The outline plan itself was only about 4m lower. The turned down roof ends they said at the time were to better integrate the heigth with the the existing stadium... which makes no sense as you say, surely that then makes it more difficult to go bigger with future developments.

While I am on about Elon Musk... I see that his SPace X company have basically written to locals with a once only non negotiable offer of 3 times the market value of the houses, so they can buy up all that they need to to continue development.

I think LFC should have bought then land where the hotel is going, had a ground floor or 2 of shop and bars etc, then a hotel on top with conferencing facilities, and they can put people up for weddings/functions/ events etc. What does it cost to build £10m they said maybe £15m.... chicken feed... and we control the land too.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 02:01 PM   #13318
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For the record those views do not constitute unique viewers, and depending on how you progress back and forth to different pages on the site your visit to the thread could count as multiple "views." The total number of individuals who've contributed to this Anfield thread discussion is about 530, and I'm guessing that group constitutes 25% or more of those views as I alone have checked this site at least 200 times just to monitor the thread for any needed moderating. So, apply context to any statistic.
You only apply context to a statistic if it helps your argument or you rely on another statistic if the context does not help... or you hope nobody notices..... damn!
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 08:19 PM   #13319
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Regarding the ongoing feasibility study for how/what to build at the ARE, could one of the sticking points be how we integrate any new design with the sloping edge of the new main stand.
I'd say under the old outline proposal this may well have been the case, but clearly they're revising plans, so I suspect that the new plans will take care of this. I do suspect there will be some pretty restricted views in the upper deck on the SKDS Side however.
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Old September 23rd, 2019, 09:55 PM   #13320
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I canít see how big time plans wonít include a future plan for the stadium as a whole. Any issues with the SKD will surely be temporary
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