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Old March 19th, 2019, 10:57 PM   #6401
Sandblast
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Agree Brum X. I'm amazed it's taking so long to develop this plot of land. One of the last big city centre plots available.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:04 PM   #6402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post
The tallest building in the photo is the spire of St Paul’s. I do like that fact and imo I think it should remain the tallest thing in that view as a landmark.


djay, it was a pretty narrow view, you are aware that the spire of St. Paul's is only a few hundred yards away from Birmingham's current structure ... namely, the 500 feet tall BT Tower???



St. Paul's just visible on the left .....
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:05 PM   #6403
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The tallest building in the photo is the spire of St Paulís. I do like that fact and imo I think it should remain the tallest thing in that view as a landmark.
Would you go Mid-rise djay or the limit is Low-rise ?
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:11 PM   #6404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandblast View Post
djay, it was a pretty narrow view, you are aware that the spire of St. Paul's is only a few hundred yards away from Birmingham's current structure ... namely, the 500 feet tall BT Tower???
I am aware but the character of both photos is completely different as I have said many times before. In fact I think your photo demonstrates how different the characters of the two areas, although next to each other, are.

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Originally Posted by Brum X View Post
Would you go Mid-rise djay or the limit is Low-rise ?
How many storeys do you consider low and mid rise? High rise is considered 12 in planning I think. So I would assume something in the order 6 to 11 is midrise. Which is pretty much what is already there and I think would be acceptable however, taller buildings in the midrise range will need to be sensitively designed. IMO the Council should develop view cones for the spire and work to keep these free of obstruction.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:17 PM   #6405
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We don't view a scene in real life with blinkers on, only in photographs.

You could argue that to preserve an historical view of a building, Birmingham city centre should never have been built as below. (Shown from the other direction)

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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:22 PM   #6406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandblast View Post
We don't view a scene in real life with blinkers on, only in photographs.
Are you saying that was walking down New Hall Street feels the same as walking down Ludgate Hill?

Quote:
You could argue that to preserve an historical view of a building, Birmingham city centre should never have been built as below. (Shown from the other direction)
Well you could definitely argue that and I think if the JQ was a conservation area way before the City Centre was built, it probably wouldn’t be built like that. An also the 6 lane highway that severed the connection between the city centre and this part of the JQ. The character is just different. That doesn’t mean one or two tall buildings are not appropriate if designed well. But as I said, does walking down New Hall Stree feel the same as Ludgate Hill. Colemore Row doesn’t feel the same and that’s also conservation area I believe.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:23 PM   #6407
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As you were djay. Get on with it mate.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:29 PM   #6408
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Quote:
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As you were djay. Get on with it mate.
Iíve never understood what your problem is with me tbh. You make comments and then make no attempt at justifying your position, instead you just make snide comments like this back.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:30 PM   #6409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post
I am aware but the character of both photos is completely different as I have said many times before. In fact I think your photo demonstrates how different the characters of the two areas, although next to each other, are.



How many storeys do you consider low and mid rise? High rise is considered 12 in planning I think. So I would assume something in the order 6 to 11 is midrise. Which is pretty much what is already there and I think would be acceptable however, taller buildings in the midrise range will need to be sensitively designed. IMO the Council should develop view cones for the spire and work to keep these free of obstruction.
My definition of a mid-rise is something of similar height to the HSBC building and low rise those apartment buildings the other side of the car park in the photo i took.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:35 PM   #6410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brum X View Post
My definition of a mid-rise is something of similar height to the HSBC building and low rise those apartment buildings the other side of the car park in the photo i took.
Something as sensitively designed like HSBC might work well. Thatís 13 storey.
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Old March 19th, 2019, 11:39 PM   #6411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post
I’ve never understood what your problem is with me tbh. You make comments and then make no attempt at justifying your position, instead you just make snide comments like this back.


Preserving this view as seen from where, djay? From the 8th floor of an office building that only a handful of people will ever see? You don't view St. Paul's like in the image above from street level, it is a view worth preserving for a handful of people .... 99.9999% of people in Birmingham or passing through Birmingham will never see this view .... like any view .... like the view from my lounge window. 103 Colmore Row will also change lots of views .... it's progress.

I have no problem with you djay ... we all have a point of view, we can't agree on everything. I just find you, lets say, a little contrary, and in the main, avoid commenting on your posts. Thought I'd learnt my lesson months ago!!!
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Old March 20th, 2019, 12:18 AM   #6412
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You didn’t read my post, at the least you read it and just didn’t understand it. I said develop view cones. That doesn’t necessarily mean the view from that specific picture but a range of prominent views. However, it’s worth keeping in mind that once you build tall it’s hightly unlikely you’ll ever go back to something like the above.
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Old March 20th, 2019, 11:02 AM   #6413
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Although I've just said this to you in person, may as well quote you on here It looks like it, yar. Station Street is being reduced to one lane and this morning wooden hoardings have started going up on the road around the building.


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Old March 20th, 2019, 01:40 PM   #6414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brum X View Post
Would you go Mid-rise djay or the limit is Low-rise ?
The only place planners will accept a tall building on this plot is in the bottom right hand corner of your photo Brum X. Well that's what they've said in the past anyway.


This site is huge so I don't see why Moda need to go massive anyway. You only go tall if you have to!
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Old March 20th, 2019, 02:20 PM   #6415
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Just my unqualified layman's two pence here but surely this plot lends itself to 4/5 midrises in a continuation of the density already found over the road. Would love to see a nice little semi-public square of course. Then with a corner plot build around the 70/80m to bridge with SH3.


Edit* Just seen rockrocky's post and realized I'm reinventing the wheel.
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Old March 20th, 2019, 02:41 PM   #6416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarwickDan View Post
Just my unqualified layman's two pence here but surely this plot lends itself to 4/5 midrises in a continuation of the density already found over the road. Would love to see a nice little semi-public square of course. Then with a corner plot build around the 70/80m to bridge with SH3.
I agree definitely. I think the plan that Sterling Property ventures put forward previously was the right layout for this site. If MODA were to submit something like this I think it would be great.

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Old March 20th, 2019, 05:31 PM   #6417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post

I would assume something in the order 6 to 11 is midrise. Which is pretty much what is already there and I think would be acceptable however, taller buildings in the midrise range will need to be sensitively designed. IMO the Council should develop view cones for the spire and work to keep these free of obstruction.
Out of interest djay, have you got any opinion on the St Michael's development in [email protected] on Jackson Row? 40 floors and 138 metres high; Surrounding it are the Grade I listed Albert Memorial, John Rylands Library, and Manchester Town Hall, and Grade II* listed Central Library all of which are within about 170 metres, whilst the Grade II Albert Hall is some ten metres away.

Meanwhile St Paul's is only about 280m from the corner plot. Given this would you have agreed with approval for St Michael's? And does this indicate a lack of consistency nationally?

Not for the record that I'm disagreeing with you - I'd prefer relatively low rise along Ludgate Hill although the Livery St/Great Charles St corner is suitable for a high rise in my opinion. (Apologies in advance to everyone if this post causes an influx of Mancs)

Link to a render showing St Michael's impact on the local area:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...plans-14386490
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Old March 20th, 2019, 07:40 PM   #6418
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In short, it's not a simple answer i'm afraid.

It depends what the conservation area is trying to achieve. In the Manchester example, the quick look at the conservation area appraisal i have seen notes the following
Quote:
Building heights vary from fourteen-storey office developments such as Sunlight House on Quay Street, to the three-storey shops on Bridge Street and the properties backing on to them in Wood Street... Whatever building type is constructed it should be of a high standard of design in order to maintain the quality of the urban environment.
Due to this one sentence i would argue that height is not a consideration in the character of this conservation area at the location of the development.

The Birmingham equivalent notes the
Quote:
"Buildings are generally domestic in scale, two or three storeys high".
It also acknowledges the different character of the Newhall Street part of the JQ which it sees more as an extension of the city centre with buildings of 12 storeys. It sees the site in question as an important entrance to this part of the JQ.This doesn't mean that a well designed tall building would be refused, just that a tall building for tall building sake is not going to be approved. You also have to keep in mind that over GCS is another conservation area and clearly there is a transition point as you head from say Colmore Row, Church Street to a lower rise and lower land level at Ludgate Hill and on St Paul's Sq. In Manchester, the following area not far from the site is more similar to out part of the JQ https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.47...4!8i8192?hl=en

So as you can see, the starting point for assessing whether a tall building is acceptable in that part Manchester is totally different to this part of Birmingham.This kind of feeds into your question about national consistency because it cannot be consistent nationally due to the individual assessment of each location that is needed. Different things will be special in different places even though they may appear to be the same physical situation.

Listed buildings will be considered but that a different type of assessment and one that i am not qualified to assess as i'm not a heritage consultant. However, i would say the Church is probably one of the most significant listed buildings in the area but i would argue that it's setting is already impacted by taller buildings on New Hall Street. In the Manchester example, there are a number of significant buildings which appear to be significant when you view them. In this part of the JQ the same cannot be said. For instance you may not realise this this building is listed by looking at it https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.48...2!8i6656?hl=en is listed. But those Listed in Manchester, at least to me, appear to be much grander externally which suggests there are some detailed reasons for the listing in Birmingham which might not apply to those listed in Manchester but who knows.

My initial reaction when i looked on Google at the Manchester site is that the immediate area doesn't have a strong minimum/maximum height and the land is much flatter unlike the GCS part of the JQ. Its punctuated by buildings of various heights, two blocks juxtaposed to each other. Like the next street for example https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.47...4!8i8192?hl=en

Whilst this isn't uncommon in Birmingham or in the JQ either the variety and juxtaposition is not as extreme in this specific part of the JQ. An equivalent int he JQ would be this building on Newhall Street and as you can see, it isn't as frequent of a relationship https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.48...2!8i6656?hl=en

Hope that answers your post to a degree but I've gone off on a tangent and without knowing more about that part of Manchester and why it is considered special for conservation and heritage reasons, it's a starting point upon where my decision making would be heading.
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Old March 20th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #6419
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I should add that these things are very nuanced and there will always be anomalies as planning isn't perfect and it is based on the judgement of individuals. So you may be able to find streets in the same areas where the above has been disregarded and someone doesn't think the impact is harmful and a decision made to stick 100 storeys next to a listed 1 storey building. However, these are and should be few and far between
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Old March 20th, 2019, 09:48 PM   #6420
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I wonder if the Disney cafe opening up in Primark has anything to do with Smithfield for those who remember.
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