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Old July 24th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSS View Post
there is no soul to an electric car could careless about speed.
Well let's bring back steam locomotives then! Then certainly had more "soul" than these lame eletric TGVs and Shinkansens of nowadays! Damn these new generations! Or maybe use should use rickshaws, they are certainly pulled by people with a soul!
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Old July 24th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #122
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Tesla Roadster



0 to 60 MPH in 3.7 seconds
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #123
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No, I'm saying that if we were all driving electric vehicles right now, even though electrical consumption would sharply rise, energy consumption would drop quite a lot overall.

Even if all that extra electricity were produced by diesel or kerosene powered powerplants, the fact that is electricity and distributed by electric wires to electric motors means that at least 70-80% of the energy-content of every ton of diesel or kerosene actually is used by the final driver.

Whereas the internal compbustion engine only uses max 30% of the energy content of the gasoline it uses (minus all the diesel to transport the fuel from the refinery to the gas station).

So even if all electric cars used electricity from fossil fuel plants, there would still be less energy use overall than what we have with internal combustion neanderthal mobiles puffing smoke and trembling like a medieval machine.
You're right, but that isn't the point of the discussion.

All I'm saying is that the time-frames thrown around this thread for the masive switch to electric powered vehicles are totally unrealistic.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:14 AM   #124
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2013 is going to see at least 100,000 electric cars on American roads. This is a pessimistic estimation.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #125
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@ AltinD: oh yes that might be right, but Im not the one throwing 2-year time frames for an electric switchover here hehehe. I put my money on 50% electric new cars by 2025 and near universal electric fleet by 2050.

The president of Nissan is a little more optimistic, he says as many as 50% of new cars produced by 2020 will be electric, let's wait and see, I hope he is right.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:19 AM   #126
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I never said that in 2 years everyone will be driving electric cars.

In 2 years electric cars are going to be available in masses for sale, in a number of countries
Meaning, that if you want to go ahead and buy an electric car in 2013, you could. You'll also have a nice selection to choose from and have charging stations somewhere nearby, in select states and countries.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:21 AM   #127
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Oh yes very likely. I'm very happy with this. A mere 4 or 5 years ago it seemed the electric car had died for good. Now the future is back!
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #128
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Performance Specifications

* 0 – 60 mph : 7.8 seconds
* Max Speed: 75+ mph
* Range: 100+ miles
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:28 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
Oh yes very likely. I'm very happy with this. A mere 4 or 5 years ago it seemed the electric car had died for good. Now the future is back!
Me too, it's depressing to think that we still rely on dead flowers, loosely speaking, to power our vehicles. Though your 2050 mark is quite pessimistic, in my opinion. Once we pass the 50% mark, we're already going to be very close to 100%. It's the first steps, like getting to 10%, which are the hardest, then it will rise exponentially.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #130
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yes but I meant by 2025, 50% of NEW cars being produced would be electric, and by 2050 over 90% existing cars would be electric.

I believe by 2035 we would reach 90% electric production, but the existing cars from the past will still last decades.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 01:01 AM   #131
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Then we're not that far off in our estimates, I'd say 90% in production by 2030.

Interesting note:

20,000+ new electric vehicle charging stations expected to be available in the U.S. at residential, commercial and public locations by December 2013. According to a federal report.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 01:23 AM   #132
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L.A. Utility Prepares for Juiced Demand for Juice From Electric Cars



With the L.A. auto show stage being dominated by electric cars, local power utility Southern California Edison says its grid can handle up to 1 million electric vehicles without any strain on supply—if owners recharge during off hours. “There are plenty of resources available,” says Doug Kim, director of electric vehicle readiness for SoCal Edison. “It’s not a question of how many cars are out there, it’s a question of when they recharge.”

Southern California Edison will be the first public utility to face large numbers of EVs in the coming years, and it wants to be prepared. Currently, the utility’s peak generating capacity of 22,000 megawatts—about 17 percent of which comes from wind and solar power (nice), the highest percentage in the nation so far, says Kim—barely breaks a sweat in the evening hours, when power demand across southern California drops to 12,000–14,000 megawatts. However, to ensure the complex grid’s reliability, the utility maintains a higher capacity than is needed at night, power that is currently unused. Kim and his colleagues expect 400,000 electric vehicles to be on southern California’s roads by 2020, but figure the utility can handle up to 1 million EVs before capacity becomes an issue.

For now, what is worrying Edison is not the production and transmission of sufficient electricity, but the local distribution. Each new electric car has the power consumption of one entire house, says Kim, and the capacity of local transformers was originally sized only to handle the number of houses in the neighborhood. Kim fears that neighborhood clusters of EVs could overwhelm nearby transformers, and the utility is asking EV buyers to fill out an online survey to notify the utility when they purchase a car. The company is also helping consumers figure out what they’ll need to safely charge their vehicles at home, and it is offering lower electrical rates for EV charging at night. Currently, L.A.’s residential customers pay 12–15 cents per kilowatt-hour, but could pay as little as 10.5 cents to charge their EVs under the current plan. These voluntary “opt-in” rates would necessitate a separate meter or a “smart meter” which communicates with the car’s onboard computer to correctly meter power consumption.

Everything the utility is planning is geared toward making EV ownership easier. It makes sense, since Edison is in the electricity business. Says Kim, “The last thing we want to do is add a market barrier to EVs by not being ready.”

http://blog.caranddriver.com/l-a-uti...rs/#more-12279
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Old July 25th, 2010, 05:36 AM   #133
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NY, NJ Parking Lots Sign Up to Charge Electric Vehicles



The Car Charging Group, Inc. (CCGI) this weekend announced a partnership with LAZ Parking in New York and New Jersey to begin outfitting its facilities with smart, electric vehicle charging stations.

The Miami-based CCGI installs and maintains electric vehicle charging stations in government-owned lots, and at commercial sites like shopping malls, hotels, stadiums and corporate parking garages. LAZ Parking operates over 1,300 parking facilities in 21 states and 99 cities. The LAZ Parking sites will be equipped by CCGI with smart, ChargePoint Level II, 240 volts charging stations, manufactured by Coulomb Technologies.

Smart charging stations, unlike those designed for home-garage use, have metering and e-commerce capabilities, and are visible online. Drivers can find smart charging stations on Google Maps, for example.

Coloumb Technologies, the recipient of a $15 million Department of Energy grant (funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act through the Transportation Electrification Initiative) is a leader in sales of charging stations in the U.S.

The company is, with some of its government grant money, setting up — sometimes temporarily free — public electric vehicle charging stations throughout the country, including New York City’s first.

General Electric and Toyota have announced that they are developing and will sell their own smart charging stations, as well.

The Department of Energy estimates that charging station locations in the U.S. will increase 41 times over between 2009 and 2012.

Citing consumer demand and a slew of new charging station technology, and vehicle models — like the Nissan Leaf, GM Chevy Volt, Fisker Karma, and Tesla Model S — Car Charging Group, Inc.’s president Andy Kinard said Saturday that he wouldn’t be surprised if the Obama administration fulfilled its goal: getting one million plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles on the road by 2015.



To recharge at public or commercially installed stations, Kinard says hybrid and electric vehicle owners should be prepared to pay about $3 per hour. He noted: “It’s hard to get 220 volts out into the streets. [Parking facilities] do have to charge more than it would cost an electric vehicle driver to plug in at home. But that’s nothing compared to gas prices now. And it will still be cheaper than what you spend driving an internal combustion engine.”
http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/24/ev-chargers-in-ny-nj/
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Old July 25th, 2010, 06:06 AM   #134
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Old July 25th, 2010, 06:26 AM   #135
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What is he smoking, electric batteries in the near future will enable us to go a thousand + miles on a single charge and as battery technology improves (a process that will never stop) this amount will continue rising. Even today 120 miles is hardly "10 yards." An average drive around the city is less than 30 miles.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 03:10 PM   #136
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150mph electric cars can get over 200 miles range - not using lead-acid. Battery technology does need advancing, but still feasible right now, using appropriately designed bodies.

Lith-poly and Lith-Ion batteries continuously being improved. Toshiba claimed a battery that takes in 80% of its charge in 3 minutes, so good for recharge stations.

The current Ni-Cad are feasible for cars. Design the floor to hold them all and electric motors in two of the wheel hubs.

Electric Vehicles have far less inside them than any normal engine car. The technology for the electric car is here.

A car is made of rather cheap poor heavy materials. Pressed steel is the body. There is more pressure on cost, than weight with a substantial part of the cars weight made up of the heavy body. In carbon F1 cars the bodyshell weights almost nothing by comparison to its powertrain in percentage weight of the total vehicle.

Lighten a car body and add lithium batteries, regen braking and motor in wheel hubs, and you get to around 150-200 miles range. And that is ignoring advances in supercapacitors.

Initially electric car usage will be more urban/commuting than fast motorway cruising, as that is the vast percentage of driving, but every little helps and towns and cities will be cleaned up promoting better public health, cleaner buildings and far less noise pollution. Better aerodynamics can improve high speed economy, as can trading cornering performance by eliminating fat soft tyres, giving lower rolling resistance on taller wheels and harder tyres.

It is feasible to produce an electric car that is suitable for a second car at least right now. One that does the school run and takes you to work and the shops. It will not do a 400 mile trip if a 45 minute break and clipped into a charger. On-board fossil fuel chargers may be useful for "long range" vehicles, not operating when urban running.

With what we currently know, the single most important step is going from lead or nickel batteries at around 30-50 mile ranges, to lithium that will give 150 mile ranges or more.

Lithium batteries are at around the 700 MJ/ton mark now. The very best nickel metal hydride are less than half that. Nanogate capacitors are the same just below nickel metal hydride. A small car needs around a 50 Kwh, 180 MJ, energy in the "tank". In NiMh that's 3/4 ton, with Li-Ion it is more like a 1/4 ton.

A litre of diesel is about 10 Kwh, burned at around 20% efficiency. 50 litres of diesel is equivalent to 100 KWh of battery. So the equivalent of 25 litres of diesel in an electric power train at around the 400 kg mark is possible with Li-Ion batteries.

50 litres of diesel equivalent takes us up to equivalent of half a ton of battery. That is very comparable with the weight of a normal internal combustion engined powertrain. Electric cars require very little else besides the batteries, just small motors. No radiators, massive heavy, complex transmissions, exhaust systems, anti-vibration mounts and the miles of pipes and ducts that surround a current internal combustion engines vehicle setup. An electric car gives superior packaging of the batteries and mechanicals than the current internal combustion cars and can give superior handling, and safety, in a lower centre of gravity.

.....and I haven't mentioned supercapacitors in depth either. These can more than make the electric car feasible: in the short and long term. Brake regen would assist acceleration - it is getting the car moving and once moving the car's weight is not that great an issue. Supercapacitors can take 99% of brake regen energy and instantly give it back out on moving from rest or acceleration. Supercapacitors will outlive the car.

Then there is the spin offs to home and off-the-grid uses. The drive for electric cars, that is where the focus is, will cascade into homes.

Electric Mini that outperforms a Porche:
Electric Mini

Any electric car produced can be affordable. Insulated bodies and advanced glass drastically reduce the need for heating and a/c. The Mini has water cooled motors to reuse some wasted heat.

The 1980/90s electric Chevy Impact is now old hat to what is being developed.

The Chevy Volt is a great leap in production cars, not in the technology available. It is still a heavy traditional body, much better insulated, light bodies can be produced like that. It runs entirely on electric motors.

As I stated, the secret will initially be in supercapacitors - a capacitor is a battery as it stores electrical energy directly, while a battery stores electricity in chemical form. Putting electricity into and drawing out of a supercapacitor is instant as there is no state change, while in a battery is is slow to charge and slow to extract, but currently high storage per physical volume of casing.

The Chevy Volt on sale in 6 months time:
Is using a series-hybrid setup, the engines just turns a generator. The car is driven by electric motors only. The setup is simple.

The Chevy Volt does 60mpg when the genny set is powering the driving electric motors using a 1400cc engine on a car that would normally have a minimum of a 2000cc engine. They optimise the genny engine to near maximum as possible. The Lotus ~1000cc 3 cylinder genny engine is superior to the Chevy 1400cc engine in efficiency and power/weight ratio. The Lotus genny engine, it is just a honed engine to give maximum efficiency for a specific application - a genny set. Lotus hope to sell it to companies once they move over to electric drives. Remember there is no heavy gearbox to sap power on a engine/electric setup.

The Volt is a rather bigger car. They were to have a specially designed 1000cc 3 cylinder unit but backed out in favour of adapting the old stock 1400cc engine. They had the prototypes running using the 1000cc unit - costs and existing production,etc were the factors. I think the 100cc engine is still under R&D as the 1400cc is interim. So, an engine half the displacement does better in the series hybrid setup. The Lotus engine offers even more than the Chevy tests.

As the on-board genny set is best run at a constant speed. This now brings into the frame the Rotary or Quasiturbine engine. They are smooth and quite enough not to hear from the passenger cab. The same setup is used by some buses using a turbine instead of an engine.

All will adopt series hybrid even without a battery bank, as the Chevy will make many cars instantly obsolete. Adapting existing model ranges is easy enough. Having this setup and no large battery bank in the car is still more efficient than what we have now. Put batteries in and the benefits are great.

Last edited by Bert Coombes; July 25th, 2010 at 03:20 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 04:35 PM   #137
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Quote:
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Thing is will electric motors have the power to move autos or trucks up steep hills.
They manage to move heavy electric trains brilliantly and have been doing so for over 120 years. The largest trucks in the world run on electric motors.
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Old July 25th, 2010, 04:42 PM   #138
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What is he smoking, electric batteries in the near future will enable us to go a thousand + miles on a single charge and as battery technology improves (a process that will never stop) this amount will continue rising.

Eh, that bit, I have to say, won't happen unless you mean fuel cell vehicle. The theoretical maximum of secondary battery, lithium-air battery (still a pipedream ) is 10,000+Wh/kg, but in reality it would probably be around 3,000 max. due to safety issues. That's still ~ x20 today's. If you "cram" too much power or energy density, lithium dendrite pokes a hole through the separator and you end up with a disaster! (In fact, Toshiba SCiB limits the energy density to 80Wh/kg for the sake of charging time and safety) Relying on just brute force method (simply increasing the battery capacity) is not the cleverest way. We need some management approach, like battery swap or inductive charging
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Old July 26th, 2010, 07:52 AM   #139
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Electric vehicles already on the market

Tesla Roadster: This sleek, two-seat sports car is the poster child of the EV revolution, and it has a 244-mile range. With the $7,500 federal tax credit, the Roadster's MSRP is $101,500.

Mini E: It's an electrified version of a Mini Cooper, and only two passengers can fit into it because the back seat has been replaced with a battery pack. The car has a 150-mile electric range. You'll have to be lucky or connected to get one: Only 500 Mini Es are leased to qualified buyers under one-year agreements.

Myers NmG: Myers Motors claims its tiny shoehorn-shaped one-seater is the first street- and highway-legal sub-$30,000 electric car powered by lithium-ion batteries. You can place your order at myersmotors.com.

Electric vehicles on the horizon


Production plans for the following EVs could change. The year represents the date of intended retail sales.

Chevrolet Volt, 2010: This four-passenger compact plug-in hybrid is GM's attempt at a Prius killer. The vehicle's Voltec powertrain comprises a small gas/ethanol generator and an electric motor to power the wheels. The vehicle can run 40 miles on electric power only and travel 400 miles between gas station fill-ups. It's expected to hit dealerships in late 2010.

Nissan Leaf, 2010: The Leaf is an all-electric five-seat hatchback that will be available in select markets at the end of 2010 and widely available in 2011. Unlike the Volt, the Leaf does not use a range-extending engine to charge the battery. On a full charge, the Leaf's range is rated at 100 miles. Top speed is said to be over 90 mph.

Fisker Karma, 2010: The plug-in hybrid luxury sports sedan seats four and will have a 50-mile electric driving range, the company says. It is expected to become available in the second half of 2010. Like the Volt, the Karma will use a range-extending engine to increase total range up to 300 miles. The hybrid combo will propel the vehicle from zero to 60 mph in 5.8 seconds.

Ford Transit Connect Electric, 2010: Available for commercial use only, the 2011 Transit Connect Electric utility van will be Ford's first battery-electric car when it's available in late 2010. Miles EV Highway Speed, 2010: Miles EV says its five-passenger electric sedan is undergoing safety testing. Expected range is 100 miles.

Mitsubishi i-MiEV, 2010-12: This small four-seat electric car has an 80- to 100-mile range. Testing and evaluation for American markets is under way in California. The i-MiEV goes on sale in Japan in July 2010. We're told its arrival stateside should be expected "before 2012."

BMW Concept ActiveE, 2011: Like the Mini E, BMW will lease ActiveE models to select markets. The ActiveE is an electric version of the BMW 1 Series.

Phoenix Motorcars SUV and truck, 2011: Phoenix plans to sell the first EV dual-cab truck and SUV in 2010. Each seats five and has a cruising range of 130 miles. The SUV and truck can be charged in 10 minutes with a special charging port, Phoenix says.


Think City, 2011: Starting in early 2011, the City will be manufactured in Elkhart, Ind. Built for urban environments, the small electric car will first see use in New York City. Its range is estimated to be 100 miles, and Think says the City can cruise at highway speeds.

Ford Focus Electric, 2011: We don't know much about the Focus Electric, but Ford says the all-electric vehicle will be available in 2011.

Tesla Model S, 2012: Tesla wants to follow up its Roadster with a five-passenger EV sedan. The sedan would have a 240-mile range with an expected price around $60,000, says Tesla. The company has delayed its original target date to at least 2012.

Toyota FT-EV, 2012: Based off the Toyota iQ -- a small city car that will be sold in the U.S. in 2011 as the Scion iQ -- this all-electric vehicle has an expected 50-mile range.

Ford plug-in vehicle, 2012: Ford says its next-generation hybrid system will feature plug-in capabilities. Currently, the automaker is testing the powertrain on the Ford Escape Hybrid. When plugged in, the vehicle can run 30 miles on electric power only.

Fisker Karma S Sunset, TBA: This four-passenger convertible is based off the 2010 Karma performance sedan. The power retractable hardtop is a plug-in hybrid that's capable of 100 mpg. Henrik Fisker, CEO of Fisker Automotive, said we shouldn't expect to see the convertible on the market before 2011.

Electric car made from 100% recyclable materials

The feature that makes the car stand out is the use of high-end OLED technology all through the design. The rear of the car uses OLEDs to show trailing vehicles the amount of braking force needed to prevent a bang. The headlights and turn signals are all OLED panels that are invisible when off. The entire “glass cockpit” display system not only makes your ride technically advanced, but also allows the driver to position the speedometer anywhere he or she likes.

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Old July 26th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #140
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Here's an ad I spotted in a magazine a while back.




The Saturn EV-1. I was lucky enough to see one in person at the Milwaukee auto show when I was young.




Still my favorite ev.


There is actually one electric car here in my small city that I see buzzing around:


It's a Miles ZX40S.

Built in Miles Automotive's Tianjin, China factory, the ZX40S has a charge range of 110 Kms. Speed of 40 Kmh.

"The Miles Electric Vehicles ZX40 is a subcompact electric car built by Tianjin Xiali (Tianjin-Qingyuan Electric Vehicle Co), a subsidiary of the First Automobile Works in Tianjin, China. The car is a licensed version of the Japanese Daihatsu Move minicompact and is sold in China as the Xinfu ("Happy Messenger"). Miles takes a vehicle without a drivetrain and adds the motor components."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Electric_Vehicles
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