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Old May 21st, 2018, 07:53 PM   #41
jusuchin
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Originally Posted by eaglesfant37 View Post
I work in the US Bank tower and opinions seem mixed. Most people agree it is kind of useless right now, but they also want to see it expanded to shorewood, the airport and Miller park quickly. I questioned Miller Park, but the person who suggested it said it could be used for people who want to go downtown but don't want to drive downtown. They can park in one of the lots and take the streetcar. Essentially a park and ride.
The problem with these opinions is I feel they are flawed because the line is still being built and not running yet. You really can't get a sense of something's usefulness without actually using it.

It's like saying the new ramps in the Zoo interchange are useless... for example if you want to use the Westbound to Southbound 894 exit that has been closed for ages and are calling it useless - yes it is right now because you can't use it.

I think everyone can agree it'll provide even more incentive to use if you can ride the streetcar farther - but unfortunately and realistically no one would have allowed them to build it bigger from the get go.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 09:34 PM   #42
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Settle down! I think it was Metaphorically Speaking.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh.....you know thatís not at all a defense, donít you? Speaking in hyperbole only makes it sound more ignorant and ridiculous of a statement.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 09:38 PM   #43
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The problem with these opinions is I feel they are flawed because the line is still being built and not running yet. You really can't get a sense of something's usefulness without actually using it.

It's like saying the new ramps in the Zoo interchange are useless... for example if you want to use the Westbound to Southbound 894 exit that has been closed for ages and are calling it useless - yes it is right now because you can't use it.

I think everyone can agree it'll provide even more incentive to use if you can ride the streetcar farther - but unfortunately and realistically no one would have allowed them to build it bigger from the get go.
I think alot of those folks have either little experience w transit, or they think MKE is too small.

Our company had our annual congress in Seattle last month, folks rode LRT and their streetcars, but people said how "it works here, but this wouldn't work in Mawaukee"
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Old May 21st, 2018, 10:18 PM   #44
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I think alot of those folks have either little experience w transit, or they think MKE is too small.

Our company had our annual congress in Seattle last month, folks rode LRT and their streetcars, but people said how "it works here, but this wouldn't work in Mawaukee"
Right...which is silly, because Milwaukee is equal in size to other cities (or bigger than) with streetcars and successful fixed rail transit. It will work here. Iím not concerned.
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Old May 21st, 2018, 10:37 PM   #45
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Right...which is silly, because Milwaukee is equal in size to other cities (or bigger than) with streetcars and successful fixed rail transit. It will work here. Iím not concerned.
At least it will if they finish the expansions.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 12:08 AM   #46
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At least it will if they finish the expansions.
It will do great once the expansion up Prospect/Farwell is built. The other extensions will also help. The starter line(s), though, I think will draw more passengers than you might first imagine.
The Hiawatha line to Chicago is already one of the most heavily used inter-city passenger rail lines in the country and with the intermodal station as a shared terminus for the streetcar, you can expect to see quite a few people using it who have come up on the Hiawatha. With the Blue Line, festival visitors and MAM visitors can take the train up from Chicago, then jump on The HOP and it will take them to the lakefront activities.
The same is true for festivals in Cathedral Square.
Then you add in business travelers who can take it from the intermodal to just about any hotel downtown, as well as corporate office destinations.
Then add the tens of thousands of people who live downtown, in the Third Ward, and on the Lower East Side near the route who can use it to get to the intermodal station or to any of the above mentioned neighborhoods without having to park or figure out which bus line to take.

The initial routes will hold their own and it will only get better as it expands.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 03:22 PM   #47
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It will do great once the expansion up Prospect/Farwell is built. The other extensions will also help. The starter line(s), though, I think will draw more passengers than you might first imagine.
The Hiawatha line to Chicago is already one of the most heavily used inter-city passenger rail lines in the country and with the intermodal station as a shared terminus for the streetcar, you can expect to see quite a few people using it who have come up on the Hiawatha. With the Blue Line, festival visitors and MAM visitors can take the train up from Chicago, then jump on The HOP and it will take them to the lakefront activities.
The same is true for festivals in Cathedral Square.
Then you add in business travelers who can take it from the intermodal to just about any hotel downtown, as well as corporate office destinations.
Then add the tens of thousands of people who live downtown, in the Third Ward, and on the Lower East Side near the route who can use it to get to the intermodal station or to any of the above mentioned neighborhoods without having to park or figure out which bus line to take.

The initial routes will hold their own and it will only get better as it expands.
Ridership during Bastille Days and Summerfest are probably going to have it packed to the gils, imagine how many will park a few blocks away and hop on
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:06 PM   #48
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Uhhhhhhhhhhh.....you know that’s not at all a defense, don’t you? Speaking in hyperbole only makes it sound more ignorant and ridiculous of a statement.
The distance between prospect/ogden and the Intermodal Station is 1.8 miles. You can ride a 7 speed bike at 18 mph easily. Maybe not a slow-a$$ Bubblr bike, but a decent road bike, easily.

That's 6 minutes 30 seconds if my calculations are right.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:21 PM   #49
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The distance between prospect/ogden and the Intermodal Station is 1.8 miles. You can ride a 7 speed bike at 18 mph easily. Maybe not a slow-a$$ Bubblr bike, but a decent road bike, easily.

That's 6 minutes 30 seconds if my calculations are right.
Under ideal conditions sure, but downtown during rush hour? Not a chance.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:24 PM   #50
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The distance between prospect/ogden and the Intermodal Station is 1.8 miles. You can ride a 7 speed bike at 18 mph easily. Maybe not a slow-a$$ Bubblr bike, but a decent road bike, easily.

That's 6 minutes 30 seconds if my calculations are right.
It's uphill from the intermodal station. You would have to be a very in shape rider to maintain 18 mph uphill for 1.8 miles. Furthermore, your calculation assumes that you could bike that entire distance without stopping. That's ludicrous. This is the densest part of the city, with stoplights every block. Google maps assumes 11 minutes to bike it, nearly twice your estimate.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:27 PM   #51
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Under ideal conditions sure, but downtown during rush hour? Not a chance.
Because the streetcar wouldn't also be slowed down by the traffic? I would be willing to bet money that there will not be a huge time difference between Streetcar and biking. That doesn't even include the stupidity of having the lakefront loop be a separate route so you will have to transfer between the Intermodal Station and the Lakefront. I am hopefully that the Streetcar can be successful with its starter route so that we can get some badly needed extensions to make the system more viable.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:33 PM   #52
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[QUOTE=WisBearcat;148598153]Because the streetcar wouldn't also be slowed down by the traffic? I would be willing to bet money that there will not be a huge time difference between Streetcar and biking. That doesn't even include the stupidity of having the lakefront loop be a separate route so you will have to transfer between the Intermodal Station and the Lakefront. I am hopefully that the Streetcar can be successful with its starter route so that we can get some badly needed extensions to make the system more viable.[/QUOT

Nobody said that it wouldn't, just that you were wrong, which is correct
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:38 PM   #53
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Because the streetcar wouldn't also be slowed down by the traffic? I would be willing to bet money that there will not be a huge time difference between Streetcar and biking. That doesn't even include the stupidity of having the lakefront loop be a separate route so you will have to transfer between the Intermodal Station and the Lakefront. I am hopefully that the Streetcar can be successful with its starter route so that we can get some badly needed extensions to make the system more viable.
If I am taking the streetcar from my office to the intermodal or to another part of downtown for a lunch in my suit on a hot august day, the AC train is going to be nice versus biking.
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Old May 22nd, 2018, 11:47 PM   #54
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Because the streetcar wouldn't also be slowed down by the traffic? I would be willing to bet money that there will not be a huge time difference between Streetcar and biking. That doesn't even include the stupidity of having the lakefront loop be a separate route so you will have to transfer between the Intermodal Station and the Lakefront. I am hopefully that the Streetcar can be successful with its starter route so that we can get some badly needed extensions to make the system more viable.
Holy STRAW MAN!!


The issue is whether it would take a bicycle 5 minutes from Burns Commons to the Intermodal, which is just ridiculous. Is there some elevated dedicated 2 mile bike ramp that forms a perfect direct straight line between these two locales that we are not aware of??
A bicycle is going to have to use the street grid and it is going to have several stops along the way at traffic lights.
The streetcar will have regular stops along the route, but also will have active traffic signal preemption control, meaning that it will receive priority when approaching a light.

You're right that it may be a comparable travel time by bike or by streetcar, but I'd rather take the streetcar if it's snowing or raining out or if I have my hands full. I choose to bike or walk to as many places as I can, but not everybody wants to bike 4 miles RT.
I'm also probably not going to take a trip with luggage to the intermodal station with my bicycle. My Burley trailer can carry a lot, but the point of the streetcar is providing a quick, convenient option for the many times you might not want to or be able to bike, walk or drive.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 12:01 AM   #55
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Holy STRAW MAN!!


The issue is whether it would take a bicycle 5 minutes from Burns Commons to the Intermodal, which is just ridiculous. Is there some elevated dedicated 2 mile bike ramp that forms a perfect direct straight line between these two locales that we are not aware of??

You're right that it may be a comparable travel time by bike or by streetcar, but I'd rather take the streetcar if it's snowing or raining out or if I have my hands full.
It's not ridiculous, hyperbole or outrageous to say you can cover that distance in 5-10 minutes. That is what an average urban biker could accomplish with a decent road bike. I bike 4 miles to work every day and cover that distance in about 22 minutes, with scores of stop lights, inclines, and stop signs along the way.

It's admirable that you're trying to champion the street car but the distance it covers is tiny compared to what a functional urban transit system could do. Future expansion may change the scope of the project but right now, it's a novelty that will be about as functional as the People Mover in Detroit.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 12:03 AM   #56
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Holy STRAW MAN!!


The issue is whether it would take a bicycle 5 minutes from Burns Commons to the Intermodal, which is just ridiculous. Is there some elevated dedicated 2 mile bike ramp that forms a perfect direct straight line between these two locales that we are not aware of??
A bicycle is going to have to use the street grid and it is going to have several stops along the way at traffic lights.
The streetcar will have regular stops along the route, but also will have active traffic signal preemption control, meaning that it will receive priority when approaching a light.

You're right that it may be a comparable travel time by bike or by streetcar, but I'd rather take the streetcar if it's snowing or raining out or if I have my hands full.
The secret bike routes are underground, we tried the elevated ones but people noticed and they iced really easily, also were a hassle it rained. Added bonus of underground is that stays a nice cool temperature all the time.

In all seriousness will it have traffic signal control? I knew there were discussions on operation ongoing but I had not heard these were a definite.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 12:15 AM   #57
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It's not ridiculous, hyperbole or outrageous to say you can cover that distance in 5-10 minutes. That is what an average urban biker could accomplish with a decent road bike. I bike 4 miles to work every day and cover that distance in about 22 minutes, with scores of stop lights, inclines, and stop signs along the way.

It's admirable that you're trying to champion the street car but the distance it covers is tiny compared to what a functional urban transit system could do. Future expansion may change the scope of the project but right now, it's a novelty that will be about as functional as the People Mover in Detroit.
10 minutes is not what was said. 5 minutes is what the claim was. One, two, three, four, FIVE.
And yes, 5 minutes by bike is ridiculous, hyperbole and outrageous.

I am a regular bicyclists, as most people on here know, and even on a dedicated trail like the Oak Leaf, rides at a sustained rate of 18mph for long distances, up hills and on corners is just not realistic. To suggest you can maintain speeds of 18mph on city streets for 2 miles is just plain dishonest. Trust me here. I have used several bike computers, odometers and biking apps to measure my regular 8.5 mile RT commute by bike and 18mph is towards the higher end of speeds during the route, considering the number of inclines. You won't come close to averaging that speed along this route.

10 minutes is more do-able, but 10 minutes is double the time that was claimed. Let's not argue about something that's just not possible or realistic here.

The point that riding a bike along this route is comparable in time to the streetcar is totally valid. The streetcar is not a true form of rapid transit, but good lord--neither is the bicycle.

I'm going to ride this route on some days and I'm going to want to take the streetcar tram on other days. As I said above, it's a matter of preferences and options, depending on the demands and needs of the day.

I have ridden my bike to the intermodal station before to take the Hiawatha to Chicago, only to return back from my trip to find my headlight stolen and an attempt to steal my front wheel, as well. So, parking my bike at the intermodal is not the most ideal scenario, either. For safety concerns alone, the streetcar would eliminate the potential of having my bike stolen while I'm out of town.
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Old May 23rd, 2018, 12:23 AM   #58
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The secret bike routes are underground, we tried the elevated ones but people noticed and they iced really easily, also were a hassle it rained. Added bonus of underground is that stays a nice cool temperature all the time.

In all seriousness will it have traffic signal control? I knew there were discussions on operation ongoing but I had not heard these were a definite.
Hah! If only!

And, I can't say with 100% certainty if it is built in currently, but I know the city wants it to be and have been working with Opticom (the system that does traffic light control for emergency vehicles) to integrate that same tech into the streetcar.
I know for a fact the BRT will have it and I'm 90% sure the streetcar has it as well. If it isn't in the system immediately when it opens, it likely will have it in the future, as it's not complicated-- it's just a radio signal from a transponder in the vehicles that gives signal prioritization. The traffic lights are already set up for it with their own receivers.
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Old May 24th, 2018, 09:52 PM   #59
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Let's clear the air here - the streetcar isn't meant to be a time saver (unless you're driving and parking) but a people mover and increase accessibility and transportation options. So if biking is quicker or slower shouldn't matter.
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Old May 24th, 2018, 10:17 PM   #60
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Let's clear the air here - the streetcar isn't meant to be a time saver (unless you're driving and parking) but a people mover and increase accessibility and transportation options. So if biking is quicker or slower shouldn't matter.
Yes, and to be fair, biking is probably the fastest form of transportation door-to-door in just about any limited-radius area such as most city centers/CBDs, including cities with metro subways and other rapid transit options. In short distance trips of a few miles, you're almost always going to be able to hop on a bicycle right away and immediately ride to your destination, lock up by the door and be there before someone who is taking a tram or subway train where they are going to have to wait at the platform for the train to arrive, anyway.

As you said, both biking and rail transit will be considerably faster than going by car, where you'd have to find a parking spot and then walk from there to your final destination, anyway.
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