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Old December 19th, 2009, 01:20 PM   #1001
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BT has a higher proportion of CNG buses than STA, which tend to be significantly quieter. STA also has larger numbers of older buses operating (like the oldest O305s), as BT's fleet modernisation ad expansion is proceeding more quickly relative to total vehicles in service.

Sydney CBD also has heaps more buses rocketing around the city streets given the absence of grade-separated busways or terminals.
I haven't noticed that CNG buses are much quieter, but certainly the 0305s are shockers.

Brisbane has buses on street also but Sydney is a much bigger city and thus many more people to move around. What is the annual patronage of Brisbane buses?
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Old December 19th, 2009, 09:04 PM   #1002
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I haven't noticed that CNG buses are much quieter, but certainly the 0305s are shockers.

Brisbane has buses on street also but Sydney is a much bigger city and thus many more people to move around. What is the annual patronage of Brisbane buses?
BT's is about 70 million for this year I think (not including private operators).
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Old December 19th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #1003
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BT's is about 70 million for this year I think (not including private operators).
State Transit carries about 180 million per year with the private buses carrying about a similar number I understand. That's about 350 million compared to 70 million (few private buses within Brisbane, am I right?) in a city with twice the population and area and twice the population density. Most people travel by car in Brisbane.

So bus technology doesn't help explain the noise, it's more sheer bus numbers.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 11:58 AM   #1004
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State Transit carries about 180 million per year with the private buses carrying about a similar number I understand. That's about 350 million compared to 70 million (few private buses within Brisbane, am I right?) in a city with twice the population and area and twice the population density. Most people travel by car in Brisbane.

So bus technology doesn't help explain the noise, it's more sheer bus numbers.
I didn't think Sydney's privates carried anywhere near that figure. I think we are talking about respective CBDs, too. There is more non-CBD bus patronage in Sydney than up here.

I will however agree that there are many more buses in Sydney's CBD, but it doesn't help that there are so many ancient buses around down there and that so many of the newest buses are enormously loud Volvo B12BLEs with engine brakes.

Sydney's largest CNG fleet component is the 300 O405NHs, which are older than BT's gas buses, less clean and louder than the Scanias and MANs in service here. The difference is noticeable.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 03:35 PM   #1005
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I didn't think Sydney's privates carried anywhere near that figure. I think we are talking about respective CBDs, too. There is more non-CBD bus patronage in Sydney than up here.

I will however agree that there are many more buses in Sydney's CBD, but it doesn't help that there are so many ancient buses around down there and that so many of the newest buses are enormously loud Volvo B12BLEs with engine brakes.

Sydney's largest CNG fleet component is the 300 O405NHs, which are older than BT's gas buses, less clean and louder than the Scanias and MANs in service here. The difference is noticeable.
As I mentioned I've experienced quieter buses in Europe so I know what it's like but a bus noise is still a bus noise, the difference is marginal. If they're 10 minutes apart it's not such an issue but when you have have nearly 2000 of them (State Transit fleet) crammed into an inner city environment going along some roads 30 secs, 1 min, 2 mins apart then you have an urban life-quality issue Houston!

Of course it represents a failure of planning. If you need that much bus you should be having tram, metro or train along those corridors.
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Old December 20th, 2009, 11:40 PM   #1006
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If you need that much bus you should be having tram, metro or train along those corridors.
Agreed, although there will always be a place for large numbers of buses in Sydney's CBD. The capital costs of building LRT/MRT systems these days is such that you have to be very judicious about where you put them. Building the CBD metro or putting in 5 LRT routes to say Sussex St, Balmain, Oxford St, Kensington, Parra Road etc is not going to stop people in inner city areas catching buses into town.

While I subscribe to the philosophy that people won't mind changing so long as services are frequent and transfer times are minuscule, I also believe people aren't going to be terribly pleased about forced mode changes other than somewhere right on the edge of the CBD (eg Wynyard, Railway Square), not in a place like Rozelle. A similar (although not brilliant) example was the construction of Enoggera interchange in Brisbane, which now sits virtually unused.

What you need to do it put in a decent subsurface interchange or grade-sep busway to take a lot of the services off the street and let LRT be the inner city distributor. You can manage this fairly simply and without compromising rail corridors because they don't have to be terribly deep and you don't need to be so selective about geometry and paths in and out of town.
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Old December 21st, 2009, 02:41 AM   #1007
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State Transit carries about 180 million per year with the private buses carrying about a similar number I understand. That's about 350 million compared to 70 million (few private buses within Brisbane, am I right?) in a city with twice the population and area and twice the population density. Most people travel by car in Brisbane.

So bus technology doesn't help explain the noise, it's more sheer bus numbers.
TransLink wide the trip number is 114.4 million trips (source).

It is still significantly less than the Sydney number however more proportionate.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 10:46 AM   #1008
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...wouldn't trolley buses be a good alternative, not being noisy and all?

Well... it means unsightly wiring up along the main routes and all... but I suppose something has to be done to take all these buses off the roads - most are long-distance travel (eg. from NB or Hills)...

*shrug* I don't mind the buses too much, it's just a part of city life.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 12:17 PM   #1009
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Question about the whole bus noise issue - how does it compare to European cities?

I saw buses driving past me all the time in Paris and can't say it impacted on my experience of the city. The bus noise in London is a bit more intrusive although they think of the red buses as icons of their cities anyway.

Paris has far fewer people complaining about the ambiance of the place and there are no trams in sight, not until you get a little further out at least (I did see one at a place called Issy)
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 03:15 PM   #1010
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The French like their cars, tooting horns, lots of noise, so do Spanish, Italians, crazy cultures! But Paris also has those Renault/Karosa and similar buses which are quieter. Go further east to the major tram cities and things can fall very quiet indeed if the city is well-planned.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 11:44 PM   #1011
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...wouldn't trolley buses be a good alternative, not being noisy and all?

Well... it means unsightly wiring up along the main routes and all... but I suppose something has to be done to take all these buses off the roads - most are long-distance travel (eg. from NB or Hills)...

*shrug* I don't mind the buses too much, it's just a part of city life.
There have been proposals to reintroduce trolley buses (they did operate in Sydney's South during the mid 20th century) but they fall through.

If you want to move large numbers, you would need the buses to be double deckers, otherwise trams do the job better.
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 10:53 AM   #1012
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I love double decker buses. They're all over the UK, and really allow huge cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds to get away with having shit mass transit options.

L2, what were you doing in Issy? For a city with such an astoundingly beautiful central area, Paris sure does have shitty suburbs.
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 11:13 AM   #1013
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L2, what were you doing in Issy? For a city with such an astoundingly beautiful central area, Paris sure does have shitty suburbs.
I went to Versailles and saw Issy from the train. Had a slight intention of going into the palace there but I saw the massive hoards of people and tour buses so the only attraction I visited was the local Maccas, where I had iced tea as my drink.



I found shittier places when I was riding the RER line A. Boissy-St-Léger and Noisy-le-Grand – Mont d'Est were the two places I ended up going to. Such fun ()
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 11:22 AM   #1014
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I went to Versailles and saw Issy from the train. Had a slight intention of going into the palace there but I saw the massive hoards of people and tour buses so the only attraction I visited was the local Maccas, where I had iced tea as my drink.
Pity, you missed something good there. That and Montmatre, best places to visit in Paris.

I remember passing Issy too - nearly 30 years ago!
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 12:32 PM   #1015
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Pity, you missed something good there. That and Montmatre, best places to visit in Paris.

I remember passing Issy too - nearly 30 years ago!
The Versailles Main Line station to Chartres interurban run is good too, all above ground and mixture of traditional low rise suburbs and high rise estates
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 01:39 PM   #1016
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I went to Versailles and saw Issy from the train. Had a slight intention of going into the palace there but I saw the massive hoards of people and tour buses so the only attraction I visited was the local Maccas, where I had iced tea as my drink.



I found shittier places when I was riding the RER line A. Boissy-St-Léger and Noisy-le-Grand – Mont d'Est
were the two places I ended up going to. Such fun ()
Look at you and yer fancy France words, you lil' Francophone you.

Someone's come around to the Yoorupean mentality.
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 01:55 PM   #1017
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Look at you and yer fancy France words, you lil' Francophone you.

Someone's come around to the Yoorupean mentality.
LOL we didn't expect it from L2!

Yes the lifestyle's great and the public transport's frickin amazing after Australia. Sometimes I ask myself why come back (thinks for a while for reasons LOL)
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 02:08 PM   #1018
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Look at you and yer fancy France words, you lil' Francophone you.
Just because someone's au fait with foreign phrases doesn't give them carte blanche to use them ad infinitum.
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 02:22 PM   #1019
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Sometimes I ask myself why come back [to Australia]
Although I've never been to Europe, from what I've read (and no, not just on SSC), it sounds like somewhere that fits in with a lot of my personal lifestyle preferences: reasonable work hours, affordable housing with secure tenure, a valued public realm, the list goes on. How close are those assumptions of mine to the reality there? No doubt I'm looking at the region through rose-coloured glasses. Maybe the fact that I do not fit the Aussie male stereotype in any way at all comes into it; I can't stand all the myopic, belligerent yobbo attitudes I'm constantly surrounded by. Maybe a Europhilic bent is genetic, given that my father visited the Continent when he was young?
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 02:40 PM   #1020
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Although I've never been to Europe, from what I've read (and no, not just on SSC), it sounds like somewhere that fits in with a lot of my personal lifestyle preferences: reasonable work hours, affordable housing with secure tenure, a valued public realm, the list goes on. How close are those assumptions of mine to the reality there? No doubt I'm looking at the region through rose-coloured glasses. Maybe the fact that I do not fit the Aussie male stereotype in any way at all comes into it; I can't stand all the myopic, belligerent yobbo attitudes I'm constantly surrounded by. Maybe a Europhilic bent is genetic, given that my father visited the Continent when he was young?
It's good, but just beware "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence". 50 million Europeans would also like to come over here - perhaps a mega house swap can be arranged between Australia and Europe!

One grizzles about one's own patch but there are also intangible (and practical) things that tie you to your native land. All you can do is go and try it out. I'm a bit of an internationalist, I like being in lots of places - pity about the damn distances from and to Oz! That EU passport works a treat too, except that I have to constantly fight for the right to re-enter Australia even though I've been here almost all my life LOL!

But like I said the public transport is so good in Europe and of course you come back fired up with great ideas. And then you start using the PT here as I've been the last couple of months and the depressing reality sets in that it's so hopeless and so grossly neglected it will take generations and an entire cultural change to fix. Actually IMO I don't think it'll ever be fixed, it's just a disaster. Melbourne probably has the best hope, Sydney did but it's dropped the ball and falling behind badly. Other Australian cities are pretty much a write-off for PT.
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