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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:01 AM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absinthe_888 View Post
IMO dito nakikita yung kapalpakan ng govt sa long-term planning and vision (which is being rectified in NCC):

Meritocracy aside, imbis na govt ang magplano nag econzones / CBDs / zoning / etc, this is being done by the private sector with the Ayalas having the most experience (Makati). Well ang pang conter eh they have all the land, yet still...

Kaya ang problema, usually mga infra projects to cater to the public i.e. routes of mass rail / transpo stations, expressway (Mamplasan ahem), etc., eh imbis na general / public benefit eh nagiging negosyante / bizniz benefit (understandably sa setup ngayon).

---

Undderstandable that Ayala is playong hardball, pero sana naman eh magkaron ng middle ground tong mga to with Binay / Infradev / etc.

This MS if done correctly will really be a commuting game-changer.

---

Maganda din na maconnect tong MS sa NAIA, isang sakay lang tren asa CBD ka na agad, ayos diba.
If Ayala wants to play hardball, bahala siya sa buhay nila! Did you see how tall those buildings are in the proposals? They are quite massive at baka naman karamihan pwede mga office towers din. So if Ayala wants to remain inaccessible to the rest of the commuting public, some of those companies in the CBD may want to relocate if you know what I mean...
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:04 AM   #562
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Won't that mean the subway will have to be shallow enough so those underpasses will be used? Baka naman hassle masyado yan. Imagine the entire Ayala Avenue cut and cover...yikes!
Not neccessarily queetz. The subway can still be deep enough but the main station access at Ayala Triangle Gardens can be made via stairs and escalators and elevators coming up and down the existing underpass system. That main station access from the existing underpass would go down directly to the station concourse, which would be deeper than the existing underpass system
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:10 AM   #563
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You still need to cut and cover for the station itself though. So if they are going ot have a station where those underpasses are, that iconic intersection will need to be dug up and be inaccessible for quite some time.

I personally experience a subway station being built in front of my office in Vancouver (Canada Line Granville Station) and the cut and cover process is horrendous. I'm kinda dreading it when they start tearing down not one but two sections of Meralco Avenue onces the Ortigas North and South Subway Stations start construction. But in both cases, once they are built, its going to be so awesome!

The thing with Ayala though is the distance between the SM Makati and Makati Fire Station is not really that far and can be walkable even with the existing infrastructure in place. My sister-in-law used to take the MRT3 and walk via the elevated walkway to RCBC Plaza, which is across the street from the Makati Fire Station, so maybe a station at the Ayala Triangle is not necessary.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:11 AM   #564
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If Ayala wants to play hardball, bahala siya sa buhay nila! Did you see how tall those buildings are in the proposals? They are quite massive at baka naman karamihan pwede mga office towers din. So if Ayala wants to remain inaccessible to the rest of the commuting public, some of those companies in the CBD may want to relocate if you know what I mean...
If those companies move away from Makati CBD because of ALI playing hardball on the Makati Subway, they would choose to located in BGC, Arca South, Vertis North and Ortigas Center, which are by the way, ALI estates and connected to each other by the Metro Manila Subway. So nothing to lose for ALI. The general public ang lugi.

Honestly the Zobel de Ayala bros are still on the hands off approach on this issue. Ang nagmamatigas dito are the people running ALI in behalf of the Zobel de Ayala bros. But do not worry, in due time magkakaroon din ng middle ground dyan. Makati Subway will still have stations at Ayala Triangle Gardens and EDSA-Ayala
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:14 AM   #565
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Some of those companies are in Makati for a reason though. BDO, for example, is pretty much based in Ortigas (employees call the BDO Tower on top of The Podium, "BDO Main") but they still keep their "Corporate HQ" in that old building beside Pacific Star. They are essentially based in Makati on paper, but the actual work is in Ortigas. Maybe there is some BIR magic with that arrangement.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:16 AM   #566
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You still need to cut and cover for the station itself though. So if they are going ot have a station where those underpasses are, that iconic intersection will need to be dug up and be inaccessible for quite some time.

I personally experience a subway station being built in front of my office in Vancouver (Canada Line Granville Station) and the cut and cover process is horrendous. I'm kinda dreading it when they start tearing down not one but two sections of Meralco Avenue onces the Ortigas North and South Subway Stations start construction. But in both cases, once they are built, its going to be so awesome!

The thing with Ayala though is the distance between the SM Makati and Makati Fire Station is not really that far and can be walkable even with the existing infrastructure in place. My sister-in-law used to take the MRT3 and walk via the elevated walkway to RCBC Plaza, which is across the street from the Makati Fire Station, so maybe a station at the Ayala Triangle is not necessary.
That's true. I've also walked from Glorietta to Citygate (the new ALI office block in front of Makati Med) last month. Those elevated walkways really helped a lot and hindi naman sobrang layo. So yeah maybe it's overkill on the part of Infradev to propose a station at ATG. Pero who knows, maybe Infradev thinks na there would be lots of traffic in the area that's why they want a station there.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:23 AM   #567
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Here's what I can share, Infradev and ALI are still in the middle of negotiations. Hopefully within the year the impasse would end.

Oh by the way, hindi na nasunod gusto ng DOTr with regards to the Makati Subway going nearer to Kalayaan Station of the Metro Manila Subway. There are 2 options that I can think of:

1. UMak station of Makati Subway is connected to the Kalayaan Station of Metro Manila Subway via an underground passageway (think of how MTR Tsuen Wan Line Tsim Sha Tsui station is linked to MTR West Rail Lime East Tsim Sha Tsui station.

2. DOTr scraps Kalayaan Station and relocates to UMak in order to have a proper interchange (highly unlikely but possible)
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 07:30 AM   #568
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Sana makialam na ang DOTR dito para maayos ang issues with Ayala. Kung sa LRMC nga nagawa nila na ipaGo nung nakiusap ang DOTR, dito pa kaya.

Olats talaga kapag walang MkTR station along Ayala avenue. Kung idederetso naman papuntang MRT Ayala station mahihirapan maglagay ng stairway pataas dahil masikip na yung sidewalk. I dont know kung sa Government pa rin yung EDSA sidewalk sa tapat ng dating Intercontinental hotel.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 07:38 AM   #569
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Won't that mean the subway will have to be shallow enough so those underpasses will be used? Baka naman hassle masyado yan. Imagine the entire Ayala Avenue cut and cover...yikes!
Reminds me of Oedo Subway line. 5-8 mins bago makarating sa speedgate sa sobrang lalim

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Looks like they want to connect the subway to NAIA. I suspect the two LGUs they are talking to are essentially Taguig and Pasay especially if they're already planning to connect to the airport.


Makati subway to charge least 20% higher than LRT, MRT fares



https://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/...way-fares.html
Dapat gawin dalawang line itong MKTR subway na pacross ang layout, kapag naisama ang Pasay dito kailangan mag U-turn ito papunta ng Pasay kapag 1 line lang.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 10:06 AM   #570
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If Ayala wants to play hardball with this infrastructure program critical to nation building, I propose that government fak them up!

Like I said before, make it super difficult for them to secure any permit, put a good amount of BIR auditors on them, and don't renew any lease that's up for renewal big or small.

All other major corporations seem to be very supportive of BBB, and while this Makati Subway isn't technically part of it, it achieves the same purpose of comfortable life for all.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 10:29 AM   #571
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Those areas are prime lots that have potential in property values if train stations are build there. As already mentioned, the subway will benefit more from commercial development than collected fares, just like HK's MTR.

As they say in real estate: build and they will come....


Not true in case of makati as the area is already built up. It seems that the businesses there dont feel the need to connect to this subway. Case in point is ayala. It seems the subway proponents need the ayalas more than the other way around. Or else, ndi na nagkaroon ng issue dyan sa pag allow ng subway sa ayalo properties.

Contrast that to ayala property in trinoma na talagang nag hilahan sa location ng common station.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 10:41 AM   #572
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Here's what I can share, Infradev and ALI are still in the middle of negotiations. Hopefully within the year the impasse would end.

Oh by the way, hindi na nasunod gusto ng DOTr with regards to the Makati Subway going nearer to Kalayaan Station of the Metro Manila Subway. There are 2 options that I can think of:

1. UMak station of Makati Subway is connected to the Kalayaan Station of Metro Manila Subway via an underground passageway (think of how MTR Tsuen Wan Line Tsim Sha Tsui station is linked to MTR West Rail Lime East Tsim Sha Tsui station.

2. DOTr scraps Kalayaan Station and relocates to UMak in order to have a proper interchange (highly unlikely but possible)


What, the same way the impasse between Ayala and SM ended with the common station up north?

Hearing things like this really does disappoint. But if the subway is successful enough, perhaps the Ayalas can have a change of heart.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 11:52 AM   #573
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Oh by the way, hindi na nasunod gusto ng DOTr with regards to the Makati Subway going nearer to Kalayaan Station of the Metro Manila Subway. There are 2 options that I can think of:

1. UMak station of Makati Subway is connected to the Kalayaan Station of Metro Manila Subway via an underground passageway (think of how MTR Tsuen Wan Line Tsim Sha Tsui station is linked to MTR West Rail Lime East Tsim Sha Tsui station.

2. DOTr scraps Kalayaan Station and relocates to UMak in order to have a proper interchange (highly unlikely but possible)
Advantage naman sa Infradev if Malapit sila sa Kalayaan station bakit ayaw nila? Besides maluwag naman ang Kalayaan para sa isa pang station.

Malabo na mag adjust pa ang DOTr at JICA kasi mababago nanaman yun mga ginawa nilang studies/eng'g design saka syempre yun kontrata napirmahan na with Japan/contractors. Dapat ang mag adjust yun nasa planning stage palang kasi wala pa naman napipirmahan na mga kontrata yan sa contractors.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 12:16 PM   #574
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You know what? Screw the Kalayaan Station for the Makati Subway. Nandyan naman ang Megaworld Skytrain so they can use that to connect the Makati Subway at Guadalupe to the Metro Manila Subway at Uptown / Kalayaan.

Its so stupid these rail projects done by different political entities does not want to cooperate. From a foreigner's point of view, its SO SILLY that there is a subway line that is purposely avoiding BGC. Usually if the system is properly planned, priority dapat na magconnect ang BGC at Makati CBD. BUT ONLI IN DA PILIPINS!!!
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 12:45 PM   #575
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This is just another classic example of infra projects especially railway projects getting compromised because of selfish interest and being uncooperative despite the benefits. Regardless of Admin, there are really that just play hard ball until you get what they want, whatever that is. For foreigners point of view, indeed this is baffling. It's sad really.

This is another example of what we have now with Cubao being the first honour of being the worst "interchange", if it even considered one that might as well not to even consider it as an interchange.

It takes some foreign consultant and plans like JICA to have a proper integrated system. Even then JICA is not infallible and their plans is still subject to be change by our own final plan. Cubao as an example still, even Recto. At least NSCR Blumentritt station is integrated to Line 1 station, almost like common station.

The North EDSA common station (UGCS) is also the closest proper Interchange we will have soon. It can be better if they only dedicate a corridor to allow transfer between Line 1+3 and Line 7 seamlessly, platform to platform without going through gates.

For now the compromise solution are the following:

- Have a long underground walkway from Makati University station of Makati Subway Line to Kalayaan station of MM Subway Line. Better if they can make use of walkalator to at least not make passengers tired of walking. (Possible)
- Skytrain that can connect the two stations. Kinda inconvenient since this require passengers to first go up to the monorail station and then go down again just for transfer. Safe to assume the transfer requires going again to ticket gates, adding more burden to passengers, Unless they make a dedicated link to at least eliminate passing through gates. Still the probability of this depends how the two private entities cooperate and then how they will integrate to MM Subway. (Maybe probable depends on two private entities)
- Bus transfers for two stations can be also done. Cheapest and the most "okay na yan" solution. The solution that I don't like but at least it works anyway. (Very high possibility)
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 02:17 PM   #576
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naalala nyo pa to?



Yung probable na cause kaya wlang ayala sa MkTR is gusto siguro nila sila mismo gumawa or talagang may future plans yan .. And may phase 2 naman tsaka tram at iba pang planned interconnection yung infradev .. I'm sure may magandang reason .. Hopefully yung dating alignment yung gawing phase 2 .. Btw surprised ako sa tram 😁.. Lol..

@3:18
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 03:18 PM   #577
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Yun nakakainis dyan sa PAbaya Subway yung pangbayad sa Digong (Metro Manila) Subway na ginagawa ngayon ang gagamitin dyan, tapos BGC, Makati at Pasay lang ang sakop. Mas maganda talaga ang Digong Subway dahil mas madami ang sakop at makikinabang. The Makati Subway is our chance to do some of the benefits of the PAbaya Subway pero puro crab mentality.

Imbis na maging matuwa ang mga Ayala na magkakaroon sila ng subway na walang cost to them or the government, nagmamatigas pa. Imbis na gawing seamless connection ang Makati Subway at Metro Manila Subway para maayos na ang problema ng BGC na kulang na kulang sa disenteng public transport, nagcheche bureche pa! Nakakainis!
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 04:12 PM   #578
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ang gusto ng Infradev ay maginvest ang Ayala sa mga station, imbes na investor naging ROW cost. Ang pinoprotectahan din ng Ayala ay ang foot traffic na mawawala from mrt3 to greenbelt kung may station malapit sa MRT ayala at sa paseo.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:00 PM   #579
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then the subway should terminate in the middle of Greenbelt. I think its possible right? or in between glorietta and greenbelt. that would bring traffic to the malls.

Ayala would probably say yes if the route would involve areas outside Makati. if its just inside Makati, I think they couldn't see additional untapped market and even drive potential costumers out. intradev cant even bring possible customers from BGC.

nonetheless, this is not a valid reason. you cant hostage the people.

---
heres my idea. we ditch the eastern Makati since this will be serve by megaworld. and make a Makati loop with a spurline in gil Puyat-ayala intersection towards taft avenue.

stations could be= buendia-ayala, ayala-makatiave, Rockwell, cityhall, circuit makati, then back to buendia-ayala.
spurline= buendia-ayala, osmena-buendia, buendia-taft intersections and link to LRT1.

skytrain will then extend its line towards Rockwell which the Makati loop will meet it.

with this, you captured the east and west markets while you keep Makati residents transpo better.

---
anyway, I never expect this line to go up. surprised really that abbie looks firm. im happy if this gets built though.
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Old August 3rd, 2019, 06:27 PM   #580
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Ok some clarifications:

1. Makati Subway line passes through 2 Ayala Land estates (Makati CBD and Circuit Makati). Here's the thing though, it's only the stations at Makati CBD that there are problems because of ROW costs. Makati CBD, especially Ayala Triangle Gardens, has very expensive prices per sqm. While the Circuit Makati station is a go due to Circuit Makati having a less expensive price per sqm. Hindi ayaw ng Ayala Corp. magka subway sa Makati, in fact ok sa kanila because it will connect 2 of their estates (Makati CBD and Circuit Makati). Ang problema lang talaga is siyempre as the seller of the land at Makati CBD, gusto nila mataas pa mabebenta. Siyempre on the part of the buyer (Infradev and Makati LGU), as much as possible gusto nila makatipid when buying the needed ROW at Makati CBD. Now, the seller and the buyer are still negotiating with regards to the cost. Let's wait and see. That's the reason why Ayala Land is playing hard ball but we will see if they will have a compromise. Hindi pa tapos ang usapan.

2. The national government is hands off in this project. This is a purely Makati City endevour. Mapapansin niyo majority of the stations are located in the properties of the Makati LGU (Makati Fire Station, City Hall, Cembo, UMak, OsMak). There are only 2 stations as of the moment that are located in private developers' lands (Ayala Land's Circuit Makati and Rockwell Center). Walang say si DOTr at NEDA dito for approval since Makati LGU ang kausap ng Infradev.

3. Abaya's subway proposal is already dead. The proposed route along Mckinley Road entails very expensive ROW as it passes at Forbes Park.
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