Projects & Discussion | SYDNEY | General Public Transport Thread - Page 5 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > OZScrapers > Urban Spaces > Transportation

Transportation Trains, planes and automobiles.


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 22nd, 2009, 05:05 AM   #81
beastjim
Maglev Believer
 
beastjim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,259
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
The one example usually cited is Hasselt in Belgium, a town of 70,000 people (roughly the size of Bendigo) where buses have been free since 1997. As a measure to revive a declining city centre by encouraging people to visit more often it has been an outstanding success. But it has been less successful at encouraging a shift to sustainable transport. A survey of bus passengers a year after implementation found that 18% were former cyclists, 14% former pedestrians and 23% former car users. In other words, the free service was actually more successful at reducing walking and cycling than at reducing car travel. Hasselt's buses now serve an average of 12,000 trips per day, and while bringing much-needed custom to the city centre, are not the majority mode of transport even for Hasselaars (let alone the 200,000 daily visitors from the wider region, who either drive or pay to use trains and regional buses).
I can certainly agree with this example posted by CKF. I live on the Spring Hill Loop, up here in Brisbane, and the frequency that I walk down to the city compared to catching the bus now has certainly changed since it became free. However I wasn't the target of the plan, and neither were the overseas students who go to language school across the road who fill up the services and make it look like a roaring success. Very much an excuse for people to be lazy then changing transport patterns. Maybe not so relevant to a city wide initiative like being proposed here, but still relevant.
beastjim no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:41 AM   #82
aussieboy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,103
Likes (Received): 72

I don't think free transport will lead to a "swamped" system. This year I started using travelpasses rather than traveltens, and the fact that all marginal transport is "free" (when one regards the initial cost as a sunk cost) has not motivated me to suddenly start using much more transport.

Public transport is already a lot cheaper than buying and operating a car anyway.

What free transport WILL do is make people much more willing to use different services to complete their journey, as there will be no more flagfalls. If anything, this will reduce use of pt networks.

If the government wants to save money on fare collection, they should follow the German route and just get rid of all ticket barriers. A lot of people subscribe to Murphy's law and/or feel guilty, and as a result buy tickets anyway
aussieboy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:41 AM   #83
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyknightsfan View Post
What about the $$ value of your time? With shit service levels, the time cost will still outweigh the cost of commuting by car for the vast majority of trips.
Time cost will be irrelevant when people are forced to take underfunded and poor PT if and when the worlds economy starts to recover. Once we head along the ridiculous perpetual growth model we are going to hit quite a few brick walls and it won't be pretty. Energy constraints are going to be the next GFC and they are just waiting around the corner once our old economic model recovers. (as no government in the world can contemplate another system)

I think the free public transport model is feasable and doable. If they implemented it now and funded it out of the roads budget and put in some pocket money taxes we might see Sydney not turn into an even bigger traffic nightmare than it is.

This might be unpalatable for the people in the boonie suburbs, but hey you got your McMansion and had no intention of screaming for public transport until the last oil shock.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:47 AM   #84
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyknightsfan View Post
And this is not a comparison with Melbourne, we are talking about Sydney here which is a hell of a different city in terms of PT use in general and the fact it has other CBD's all over the place.

I also stated that all road funding should be to increase bus / rail / ferry / light rail frequencies to compensate for added users.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:57 AM   #85
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyknightsfan View Post
I'd rather see the 8 cents used for improvements

this obsession with free PT is ludicrous and appeals to the wannabe socialist inside you all
I'm not a socialist but am a MBA qualified economist. I saw the writing on the wall ages ago and got out when the going was good.

What I was trying to put to you all was that free PT is a start to weening people off cars and ending suburban sprawl. People in our major cities are soon enough going to realise that the three car garage and McMansion in the exurbs is completely unsustainable and unaffordable.

If their not turfed out in the street soon enough.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 11:01 AM   #86
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,317
Likes (Received): 11783

But a bad service is still a bad service even if it was free. Who is to say that utilisation (based upon a previous example highlighted by CKF) would be beneficial if fares were abolished?

I know I'd not use our transit system more in Auckland if it was free, it's useless.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 11:19 AM   #87
invincible
Lurker
 
invincible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,804
Likes (Received): 524

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussieboy View Post
What free transport WILL do is make people much more willing to use different services to complete their journey, as there will be no more flagfalls. If anything, this will reduce use of pt networks.

If the government wants to save money on fare collection, they should follow the German route and just get rid of all ticket barriers. A lot of people subscribe to Murphy's law and/or feel guilty, and as a result buy tickets anyway
Melbourne operates on an honour basis on trams and railway stations outside of the inner city and there is a common mentality of "if no one checks, I'm not going to pay for a ticket".

Quote:
What free transport WILL do is make people much more willing to use different services to complete their journey, as there will be no more flagfalls. If anything, this will reduce use of pt networks.
That could be achieved by using time-based ticketing, integrated across all transport modes. But as others mention, even if taking a bus to connect to a train trip costs the passenger nothing extra, like here in Melbourne, it doesn't mean that they're automatically going to use a poor service.
invincible no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 11:54 AM   #88
peetone
Registered Abuser
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Obama, Japan
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 0

No. Free public transport is a stupid proposal.

The idea that free PT would be a 'start' to weening people off the cars, would also become the end. Future governments would be reluctant at improving services due to the huge costs (revenue now barely covers the operating costs). With free PT, the funding has to come from somewhere else - sure we could laugh and say the budget allocated to free PT would be from cancelled road budgets, but there's also the danger that by providing free PT would actually turn people away (varying perception). The funding for free PT could eat into health and education budgets; or further erode the ability for governments to borrow money for other projects.

I'd rather see cordon/city-wide congestion pricing (think of an electronic toll gate on each and every major road), making car use even more expensive with 100% of the funds going towards public/active transport infrastructure and appropriate land use strategies - that way, we can have prospective home buyers think twice about living in Outer Whoop Whoop because "land is cheap".
peetone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 12:01 PM   #89
L2
Corbynite
 
L2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Communist Land
Posts: 7,759
Likes (Received): 1688

Quote:
Originally Posted by mx5star
And this is not a comparison with Melbourne, we are talking about Sydney here which is a hell of a different city in terms of PT use in general and the fact it has other CBD's all over the place.
What's your point - it's a fairly broad article.

Or do the points about how people prefer better services, etc, all go out the window when you talk about Perfect Sydney? Yes, Greater Sydney's PT is so puuuurrrfeeecctt
__________________
Supporter of Future UK Prime Minister Comrade Jeremy Corbyn for Supreme Dictator of the United Kingdom.
L2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 01:35 PM   #90
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
But a bad service is still a bad service even if it was free. Who is to say that utilisation (based upon a previous example highlighted by CKF) would be beneficial if fares were abolished?

I know I'd not use our transit system more in Auckland if it was free, it's useless.
Auckland is a bad case example, even Hobart probably has better PT.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 01:47 PM   #91
L2
Corbynite
 
L2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Communist Land
Posts: 7,759
Likes (Received): 1688

But his point applies equally to Sydney (oh noes!) too - look how many places have useless PT, either in general or for non-radial journeys.
__________________
Supporter of Future UK Prime Minister Comrade Jeremy Corbyn for Supreme Dictator of the United Kingdom.
L2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 01:52 PM   #92
TOCC
Registered User
 
TOCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Heaven
Posts: 8,564
Likes (Received): 2781

well what if they put it this way, for $1billion/year everyone rides for free, or alternatively for $1billion/year we continually expand the network

I know which i would choose
TOCC no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 02:01 PM   #93
deanh
Sexiest Creature
 
deanh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Smiggin Holes, NSW
Posts: 687
Likes (Received): 16

Just like when the older folk say that as it is PT, it should be provided free by the government. I always disagree and state that by them paying for it to be free that means less money in investment for it, or money that will need to be grabbed from somewhere else. Naturally though, of course they just ignore that and go back to square one and repeat what they just said with how it should be free.

Also like when they say all motorways should be free and not even have a toll to help maintain it. If everything was free then how would they be able to afford new infrastructure? Increase taxes?

On a similar note, I hate when older people think they know it all, and even then still believe they are right when fact goes against them.
deanh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 02:31 PM   #94
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by L2 View Post
What's your point - it's a fairly broad article.

Or do the points about how people prefer better services, etc, all go out the window when you talk about Perfect Sydney? Yes, Greater Sydney's PT is so puuuurrrfeeecctt
In never said Sydney was perfect, far from it. What I was saying that comparing Melbourne to Sydney or any other state capital for that matter was ludicrous given the fact that Sydney has many CBD's where the opportunities for improved and multimodal use of public transport could be readily used.

Besides which this thread is not about Melbourne but about Sydney having free public transport.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 02:55 PM   #95
AtD
Bigger is better
 
AtD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,061
Likes (Received): 3361

Last year in Sydney I asked a guy on the street for directions to a tram stop. He got offended and said "No, it's a light rail!" as if Trams were some inferior stone-age technology that only Mexicans use and the light rail(TM) is a totally different concept, made of sugar, spice and all things nice.

Was that you, mx5star?
__________________
How popular is public transport in Australian cities?
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showp...&postcount=703
AtD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 03:20 PM   #96
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtD View Post
Last year in Sydney I asked a guy on the street for directions to a tram stop. He got offended and said "No, it's a light rail!" as if Trams were some inferior stone-age technology that only Mexicans use and the light rail(TM) is a totally different concept, made of sugar, spice and all things nice.

Was that you, mx5star?
And your point is how relevant to this thread?

None. Off the record, the Sydney Metro Light rail is exactly that. Go to the web site. I doubt anyone in Sydney would have been offended at you calling the light rail a *tram*. More than likely not they would have said it's light rail and it's in this direction.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 03:30 PM   #97
AtD
Bigger is better
 
AtD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,061
Likes (Received): 3361

My point was, Sydney is not as unique, in this regard, as you may think it is.
__________________
How popular is public transport in Australian cities?
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showp...&postcount=703
AtD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 03:39 PM   #98
zach24
Registered User
 
zach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,965
Likes (Received): 2

This proposal will be introduced three weeks before the election - and canceled shortly after.

NSW State Government is something ALL of Australia should be proud of. Provides an endless supply of population for Queensland and Victoria.
zach24 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 04:08 PM   #99
mx5star
Registered User
 
mx5star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,306
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by zach24 View Post
This proposal will be introduced three weeks before the election - and canceled shortly after.

NSW State Government is something ALL of Australia should be proud of. Provides an endless supply of population for Queensland and Victoria.
Eloquently put!

And that is probably going to be the sad fact of the matter. State ALP here in Victoria is not much better either.

mx
mx5star no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 03:02 PM   #100
GavinC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Likes (Received): 0

Rather than free, why not make it fareless instead?

Introduce a transport tax to be collected with rates, based on, for example, the quality of pt options in your area. That way revenue is protected, fare collection costs reduced, and increases in the tax can be justified by increased service provision (which should be the ultimate aim anyway).
GavinC está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Tags
maglev bus to caboolture, mandurahboyz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Mорско око" - Форумен дрон за Варна p0ck0 Varna 852 Yesterday 11:35 PM
Projectos e NotÝcias de Oeiras Fern Projectos 2148 Yesterday 11:06 PM
London - Full Summary of Projects 28 SE9 London Metro Area 123 Yesterday 10:19 PM
Penang Transportation Plan rizalhakim Pengangkutan 3781 December 6th, 2019 04:33 PM
[Bratislava] Full Summary of Projects alien Bratislava 636 October 3rd, 2018 01:45 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us