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Old January 18th, 2020, 01:33 PM   #11821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
Re: Scott Darwin. I'm not sure government necessarily funds areas according to the size of their Travel to Work Area. However, if they did Liverpool's Travel to Work Area happens to be the third largest in the North of England according to ONS statistics, and it's only less than 100,000 people off being the second largest by the count of the last Census. Therefore, our city region should be more or less the second most funded in the North, I don't know whether that's the case, it may well be but I doubt it somehow.

It begs the question, therefore, why Leeds is included on the HS2 map and not Liverpool does it not?

And why is the government making it easier for Liverpool people to commute to Manchester Airport than their own local airport when market research from 2014 showed that 90% of people living in Liverpool would prefer to fly from Liverpool than Manchester to keep money in the Liverpool economy.

If the government were so concerned about positively impacting the most amount of people as you suggest they would enable Liverpool people to be able to use their own airport more easily by bringing it in to the national rail network. They would also provide the city with a direct HS2 link.

And I don't agree with your analysis on Manchester having the poorest people either.
48.7% of Liverpool's neighbourhoods are classed as highly deprived compared to 43.3% of Manchester's.

That, therefore, makes Liverpool's case stronger as regards the government's priority to support and encourage private investment, or as you say, to not interfere with the private sector to hinder investment.

Going back to earlier questions from another poster. Liverpool South Parkway is, unfortunately, not a direct rail link to the LJLA. It's only an interchange 3 miles away from the terminal building and connected merely via a shuttle bus. It was locally funded by Merseytravel to the tune of £32m.

Manchester Airport station, on the other hand, was built by creating a short spur line leaving the Styal line between Heald Green and Styal. It would be interesting to trace where the funds came from for that? Moreover, the government (Network Rail) has heavily invested in new platforms at the station over the last 10-15 years as well as the HS2 commitment.

Where is Network Rail on LJLA? What are the Chancellor's commitments to the third largest TTWA in the North of England? Virtually the second largest! Where is the generous support for the third largest airport in the North? Again, we're not that far behind on being the second largest airport either. There's very little in it between Liverpool and Newcastle.

Sources:-
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...atbritain/2016

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49812519
It's because Liverpool is being rinsed to allow Manchester to thrive. We all know it, some just can't accept it or want to on both sides of the argument let alone address it.
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Old January 18th, 2020, 01:40 PM   #11822
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It's because Liverpool is being rinsed to allow Manchester to thrive. We all know it, some just can't accept it or want to on both sides of the argument let alone address it.
I agree. It is and has been for a long time. Maybe government ministers have personal investments there? Is there a conflict of interest somewhere?
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Old January 18th, 2020, 01:51 PM   #11823
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
Re: Scott Darwin. I'm not sure government necessarily funds areas according to the size of their Travel to Work Area. However, if they did Liverpool's Travel to Work Area happens to be the third largest in the North of England according to ONS statistics, and it's only less than 100,000 people off being the second largest by the count of the last Census. It is only slightly less than Newcastle. Therefore, our city region should be more or less the second most funded in the North, I don't know whether that's the case, it may well be but I doubt it somehow.

It begs the question, therefore, why Leeds is included on the HS2 map and not Liverpool does it not?

And why is the government making it easier for Liverpool people to commute to Manchester Airport than their own local airport when market research from 2014 showed that 90% of people living in Liverpool would prefer to fly from Liverpool than Manchester to keep money in the Liverpool economy.

If the government were so concerned about positively impacting the most amount of people as you suggest they would enable Liverpool people to be able to use their own airport more easily by bringing it in to the national rail network. They would also provide the city with a direct HS2 link.

And I don't agree with your analysis on Manchester having the poorest people either.
48.7% of Liverpool's neighbourhoods are classed as highly deprived compared to 43.3% of Manchester's.

That, therefore, makes Liverpool's case stronger as regards the government's priority to support and encourage private investment, or as you say, to not interfere with the private sector to hinder investment.

Going back to earlier questions from another poster. Liverpool South Parkway is, unfortunately, not a direct rail link to the LJLA. It's only an interchange 3 miles away from the terminal building and connected merely via a shuttle bus. It was locally funded by Merseytravel to the tune of £32m.

Manchester Airport station, on the other hand, was built by creating a short spur line leaving the Styal line between Heald Green and Styal. It would be interesting to trace where the funds came from for that? Moreover, the government (Network Rail) has heavily invested in new platforms at the station over the last 10-15 years as well as the HS2 commitment.

Where is Network Rail on LJLA? What are the Chancellor's commitments to the third largest TTWA in the North of England? Virtually the second largest! Where is the generous support for the third largest airport in the North? Again, we're not that far behind on being the second largest airport either. There's very little in it between Liverpool and Newcastle.

Sources:-
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...atbritain/2016

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49812519
The Tory MP on question time, forget her name, seems to be promising asorts for the north and said she has been to Liverpool twice since the election...so lets see !!
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Old January 18th, 2020, 02:18 PM   #11824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
I agree. It is and has been for a long time. Maybe government ministers have personal investments there? Is there a conflict of interest somewhere?
Tony and Cherie Blair have an enormous property portfolio in Manchester. They clearly were aware of something going on!

Quote:
The former Prime Minister’s wife Cherie and son Euan have become private landlords, snapping up nearly 30 flats in south Manchester, Stockport and Trafford

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...built-11231374
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Old January 18th, 2020, 02:44 PM   #11825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
I agree. It is and has been for a long time. Maybe government ministers have personal investments there? Is there a conflict of interest somewhere?
I think a lot of it is indifference, mixed with an ingrained animosity that perhaps properly kicked in during the days of militant for Labour at least...they don't really like the place but they like the votes.

Then we have the constant repetitive messaging from so called think tanks and policy lobbyists that invariably favour certain cities and talk down others...I mean we've seen some of the ridiculous hypothesis from Centre for Cities over the years where you would literally think Liverpool was fishing village and Manchester twice as big as New York. This mentality has infiltrated everything and rotted away at Liverpool's leadership and sense of self esteem.

And that brings me to our city leadership itself who top this pile of crap we have to address. They are useless, out of their depth, under qualified and have no grasp of what works a world city work.

I think somewhere along the line the idea was rubber stamped that the north can't sustain a string of powering cities as to support their growth would divert funds away from London, so, to deal with this is its been much cheaper and easier to focus activity in one or two and leave the others to mull along and their populous to leave or commute - which is exactly what we are seeing. I mean look at HS2? Historians looking at that will see exactly what that line would do/will do to Liverpool in the future and see how the government went out of it's way to ignore one of the UK's largest cities whilst furnishing it's rival with 2 stations on HS2 as well as priority for HS3, come on guys, no matter what you bias that's ridiculous and another sign of how Liverpool is slowly being ushered into commuter town status one slight of hand at a time.

I do not believe for one second the lack of serious investment, commercial activity and infrastructure from Whitehall into the LCR is an accident, it's engineered.
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Old January 18th, 2020, 02:49 PM   #11826
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Originally Posted by greenfinch View Post
The Tory MP on question time, forget her name, seems to be promising asorts for the north and said she has been to Liverpool twice since the election...so lets see !!
I know it makes me sound negative but this is lip service. The Labour party hustings start in Liverpool today - doesn't mean the pump priming next door won't continue in power or not.
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Old January 18th, 2020, 04:30 PM   #11827
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Perhaps just more lip service but better than nothing I suppose and relevant to the discussion.

Steve Rotherham, in full electioneering mode, promises to do more work to improve transport links to John Lennon Airport. This will be in addition to improved links to Anfield, Bramley Moore Dock and a possible expansion to the Merseyrail network.

It is just noise at the moment. I await solid proposals and funding from Central government.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...sport-17586727
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Old January 18th, 2020, 06:14 PM   #11828
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Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
Funny how HS2 is planned to serve both Manchester and Heathrow airports. This is a conscious decision by central government and no one else.
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there.

However, the HS2 link directly to LHR is long forgotten in rounds of cost cutting and arguments over the fact that LHR is the centre of the known universe and simply must have more runways.

As I understand, the HS2 station at MAN is being paid for by MAG.

At that point Manchester might have an (unfair or otherwise) advantage that Manchester councils are able to leverage the profits/value of MAG to fund investment projects.

However, it might also be the case that Liverpool's starting point is to own LPL and perhaps the fatal mistake was to sell to a private company whose primary interest has to be its own profits.
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Old January 18th, 2020, 07:34 PM   #11829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit-yacker View Post
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there.

However, the HS2 link directly to LHR is long forgotten in rounds of cost cutting and arguments over the fact that LHR is the centre of the known universe and simply must have more runways.

As I understand, the HS2 station at MAN is being paid for by MAG.

At that point Manchester might have an (unfair or otherwise) advantage that Manchester councils are able to leverage the profits/value of MAG to fund investment projects.

However, it might also be the case that Liverpool's starting point is to own LPL and perhaps the fatal mistake was to sell to a private company whose primary interest has to be its own profits.
If that's the case then it is unfair. Particularly as Joe Anderson offered to pay £2 billion for Liverpool to be included several years ago. It would have been funded by local taxes. It fell on deaf ears.

Mayor Anderson has since resigned from Northern Powerhouse board as he felt the government was merely giving lip service about connecting Northern cities.

https://bdaily.co.uk/articles/2016/0...nk-says-report

https://www.citymetric.com/transport...rtnership-4387

Personally, it's all or nothing for me and I would rather the whole thing be cancelled than some cities having an advantage over others. We would be much better off with Crossrail for the North.
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Old Yesterday, 12:05 AM   #11830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouse1980 View Post
If that's the case then it is unfair. Particularly as Joe Anderson offered to pay £2 billion for Liverpool to be included several years ago. It would have been funded by local taxes. It fell on deaf ears.

Mayor Anderson has since resigned from Northern Powerhouse board as he felt the government was merely giving lip service about connecting Northern cities.

https://bdaily.co.uk/articles/2016/0...nk-says-report

https://www.citymetric.com/transport...rtnership-4387

Personally, it's all or nothing for me and I would rather the whole thing be cancelled than some cities having an advantage over others. We would be much better off with Crossrail for the North.
Quite a Crossrail for the north should be the first priority , and how its routed should be decided by all the interested parties of the north.
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Old Yesterday, 10:13 AM   #11831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit-yacker View Post
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there.

However, the HS2 link directly to LHR is long forgotten in rounds of cost cutting and arguments over the fact that LHR is the centre of the known universe and simply must have more runways.

As I understand, the HS2 station at MAN is being paid for by MAG.

At that point Manchester might have an (unfair or otherwise) advantage that Manchester councils are able to leverage the profits/value of MAG to fund investment projects.

However, it might also be the case that Liverpool's starting point is to own LPL and perhaps the fatal mistake was to sell to a private company whose primary interest has to be its own profits.
I think the problem is , in the past the Merseyside councils didn't provide much investment to the airport, baring the new runway. Private investment has changed the appearance of the airport significantly. It is however a regional asset and should be viewed as that and therefore I think its right there should be some public ownership at least.

The UK in general has been to keen to sell off vital components to the highest bidder.
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Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM   #11832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit-yacker View Post
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there.

However, the HS2 link directly to LHR is long forgotten in rounds of cost cutting and arguments over the fact that LHR is the centre of the known universe and simply must have more runways.

As I understand, the HS2 station at MAN is being paid for by MAG.

At that point Manchester might have an (unfair or otherwise) advantage that Manchester councils are able to leverage the profits/value of MAG to fund investment projects.

However, it might also be the case that Liverpool's starting point is to own LPL and perhaps the fatal mistake was to sell to a private company whose primary interest has to be its own profits.
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there

Then why not expand Birmingham Airport and connect to LHR via HS2
Half the distance and half the cost.
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 PM   #11833
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As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there

Then why not expand Birmingham Airport and connect to LHR via HS2
Half the distance and half the cost.
errr... I think that substantially the original proposal. However, any HS2 connection to LHR is long lost to history.

It seems to have been forgotten to the argument of moving both the m25 and m4 and concreting what little green space was left to the West of London so that BA can continue to shuttle everyone from the regions to LHR for their flight.

As I remember, the original proposals for HS2 also had much less emphasis on tunneling under central London to Euston.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #11834
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Wasn’t the original HS2 suggestion for the link to be from the north straight through the Channel Tunnel to Europe in order to reduce short haul flights from the north to nearby European connections but the thought of an autonomous north and London not being paramount horrified too many in Westminster?

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Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM   #11835
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit-yacker View Post
As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there.

However, the HS2 link directly to LHR is long forgotten in rounds of cost cutting and arguments over the fact that LHR is the centre of the known universe and simply must have more runways.

As I understand, the HS2 station at MAN is being paid for by MAG.

At that point Manchester might have an (unfair or otherwise) advantage that Manchester councils are able to leverage the profits/value of MAG to fund investment projects.

However, it might also be the case that Liverpool's starting point is to own LPL and perhaps the fatal mistake was to sell to a private company whose primary interest has to be its own profits.


As I understood HS2 was originally proposed as one answer to the need for a third runway at LHR. That is, link the regional cities directly to LHR by rail rather than flying everyone there

Then why not expand Birmingham Airport and connect to LHR via HS2
Half the distance and half the cost.
With all the concerns about climate change and domestic flights, the government have rather shot themselves in the foot by not providing a Heathrow rail link.
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Old Today, 09:07 AM   #11836
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Regional Air Connectivity Review: aviation minister visits Liverpool John Lennon Airport to launch UK tour of regional airports .......https://www.gov.uk/government/news/r...ional-airports

I hope they make him get the train into lime street, change to get to south parkway and then a bus from there.
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