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Old November 1st, 2019, 08:15 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The UK doesn't have to, but inventing your own wheel is proven to be a bad and costly idea.

US PTC is not optimised for the UK. If you don't want ERTMS a Japanese system (JR East D-ATC?) would probably be a better choice, as their train operations are more similar to the UK.
It may appear that the UK has gone completely insane, but luckily decisions like signalling systems are not taken by politicians so there is (hopefully) very little chance of the rollout of ERTMS being abandoned just because of what the first letter stands for... It is being installed at the moment on two different lines, and will go live between London and Heathrow in the next few months
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Old November 2nd, 2019, 12:28 AM   #102
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Bane Nor and Siemens open ERTMS testing and training centre

NORWEGIAN infrastructure manager Bane Nor and Siemens opened the Campus Nyland test, training and signalling simulation centre on October 31, marking a milestone in Norway’s goal of becoming the first country to operate with a single digital interlocking.

https://www.railjournal.com/signalli...aining-centre/
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Old November 4th, 2019, 10:40 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
I would still go for ERTMS, since there's a rail connection to the continent...
Even without the Chunnel, I'd still go for ERTMS if I was in charge of the decision in the UK. For the reasons M-NL stated. If there's an international standard, stick to it. Same as if you're building a brand new railway on an island that won't be getting a bridge or tunnel to the mainland: build it in standard gauge with SE-C loading gauge. Now there's just an added layer to that: build ERTMS. Because it gives you so many options and opens for computer systems, vehicles and drivers etc to start working with said hypothetical new island line with very low hurdles for on-boarding.
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Old November 4th, 2019, 04:22 PM   #104
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In the end it will be better if the standard is implemented throughout all railways with 1435mm gauge in Eurafrasia: if China would pursue/aid Russia into adding standard gauge for cargo trains to speed up EU-China rail transport, then ERTMS has to be part of the package to get rid of that obstacle of rail transport. And with the multi-current locomotives, China-EU traffic won't even have to change locomotives. Even in Africa there are HSR lines being planned with ERTMS.

We better stick to the same baseline technology to avoid future hassles. Prevent situations like we, the Dutch, have with outdated signalling hindering speed increases and horribly outdated low voltage, because when you have an austerity-licking government with outdated technology on your railways, all progress grinds to a halt and before you know you'll be forced to join the traffic jam over 16 lanes wide with a mediocre bus.
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Old November 6th, 2019, 10:42 AM   #105
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London's LizPurpCross-line is getting ERTMS:
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Old November 7th, 2019, 05:59 PM   #106
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Six bidders vie for Indian Railways ETCS Level 2 pilot project

SIX companies have responded to an Indian Railways (IR) tender to install ETCS Level 2 on 650km of lines at an estimated cost of Rs 15bn ($US 211.4m).

https://www.railjournal.com/infrastr...pilot-project/
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Old November 8th, 2019, 01:30 AM   #107
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So India's going for ERTMS. Nice.
Starting with testing it on four lines before deciding to implement it one the whole immense Indian Rail network seems fairly reasonable.
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Old November 8th, 2019, 01:23 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
Bane Nor and Siemens open ERTMS testing and training centre

NORWEGIAN infrastructure manager Bane Nor and Siemens opened the Campus Nyland test, training and signalling simulation centre on October 31, marking a milestone in Norway’s goal of becoming the first country to operate with a single digital interlocking.

https://www.railjournal.com/signalli...aining-centre/
Some of the information in the article contrasts with others I have noted.
For example:
Quote:
The Roa – Hønefoss ERTMS test line is due to open in spring 2020
Why do they need a second pilot line, because the first one didn't work well or because it's Bombardier's?
Quote:
The first trials began in November 2013 with a pilot deployment on the Mysen – Sarpsborg section of the 80km Ski – Sarpsborg Østfold Line. Lineside signalling was removed and the line was equipped with Bombardier’s Interflo 450 ETCS Level 2 solution. The remainder of the route migrated to ETCS Level 2 (SRS 2.3.0d) in September 2015
Source: IRJ 2016

Another question:
Quote:
Norwegian infrastructure manager Bane Nor and Siemens opened the Campus Nyland test, training and signalling simulation centre on October 31, marking a milestone in Norway’s goal of becoming the first country to operate with a single digital interlocking.
It's a good idea that the interlocking is Siemens and the TMS Aramis of Thales? in addition to the ETCS on-board equipment, which is Alstom Atlas.
Quote:
Thales was recently selected for the contract to deliver a new national Traffic Management System (TMS), which will replace three legacy systems.
Source: IRJ 2018

Bane Nor does not detail much on his outdated website.

Moreover, last month Bane Nor awarded Limmat (a Spanish company) a technical assistance and consultancy contract for the implementation of ERTMS in Norway.
The news says that the whole network will have ERTMS in 2030 but I think that in reality they will only be the main lines and the Oslo S, all the network in 2034.
They also detail that ERTMS will consist of ETCS 2 without lateral signalling and with software 3.6.0 (Baseline 3).
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Old November 10th, 2019, 06:38 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Why do they need a second pilot line, because the first one didn't work well or because it's Bombardier's?
Bombardier's Interflo ERTMS implementation always was the worst of the pack, both train-side equipment or track-side equipment. It had a problem that it wasn't compatible with one or the other vendors (I guess either Alstom, Ansaldo STS or Siemens) train equipment, and so more debugging was needed.

I think it was either the Betuweroute or Amsterdam-Utrecht that was one of the first to be equipped with Bombardier track equipment, and where they encountered this problem.

The other vendors didn't seem to have such a problem, as they were compatible with each others equipment. For example:

Thalys (Ansaldo STS train equipment) on L4/HSL-Zuid (Belgian part: Alstom track equipment, Dutch part: Siemens track equipment)

ES64F4/BR189 (mostly with Alstom train equipment, some with Siemens train equipment) on Betuweroute (Alstom track equipment). Don't know about the Lötschbergtunnel and Gotthard Base Tunnel that also require ERTMS equipment..

ICE-3M (BR406, Alstom train equipment) on L36N (Siemens track equipment; Level 1) and L3 (Alstom track equipment; Level 2)

Class 66 locos and Vossloh (G1206 and recent offspring like G12/G18) seem to have a multitude of vendors, but I at least know some of both series had Bombardier train equipment or Alstom equipment. Can't find the Powerpoint presentations on them right now though..

I also can't assess how the track-train equipment compatibility is in southern Europe (especially Spain and Italy with large HS deployments), but it seems they are more skewed towards Ansaldo, Alstom and Thales equipment. Bombardier is completely absent there, and Siemens only seems to have a small portion of equipped or to be equipped lines in the future.
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Old November 10th, 2019, 10:03 PM   #110
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Thanks for the explanation!

Unfortunately here in Spain we know well the compatibility problems of the onboard Bombardier equipment: version 3.1.0.1 of the 730 series caused Trips continuously (Post Trip mode for 20% of the journey) in the transitions to / from ETCS 0 + ASFA with the Thales ground equipment in Galicia; while 121 series with Ansaldo 2.2.2+ equipment had no problem.
The 130 series (same equipment as 730) also had problems with the ETCS 2 in Alicante and León, where it has not yet been validated despite the fact that the rest of the trains (S-121 and S-112) are authorized.
My own list of installers in Spain.

Onboard software versions:

S-100 Alstom 2.3.0.d
S-102/112 Siemens 2.2.2+ CR (Conventional Rail)
S-103 Siemens 2.2.2+ CR
S-104 Alstom 2.3.0.d (ex2.2.2)
S-114 Alstom 2.3.0.d
S-120/121 Hitachi (Ansaldo) 2.2.2+ CR
S-130/730 Bombardier 3.1.1.2 (ex 3.1.0.1 ex 2.3.0.d)
123 S-465: Alstom 2.3.0.d
20 S-450: Siemens (Invensys-Dimetronic) 2.3.0.d
31 S-446: Siemens (Invensys-Dimetronic) 2.3.0.d
43 S-447: Siemens (Invensys-Dimetronic) 2.3.0.d
9 (10) S-252: Siemens 2.2.2+ CR (level 1 only)
10 Euroduplex 3UH SNCF (level 1 only)
T-350 SRO Haramain: Alstom
Avril G3: Alstom
Oaris: CAF Signalling
Seneca, BT 1 and 2: Alstom Baseline 3 (at least 3.5.0)
Avril S-106 and 122: Alstom

Software versions on track:

05/19/2006 Madrid-Lleida: Hitachi (Ansaldo) 2.2.2+ (>2.3.0.d)
23/12/2007 Madrid-Valladolid: Thales 2.2.2+ (>2.3.0.d) and Eurobalises Siemens
24/12/2007 Córdoba-Málaga: Siemens (Invensys-Dimetronic) 2.2.2+ and Eurobalizas Siemens
20/02/2008 Lleida-Barcelona: Thales 2.2.2+ (>2.3.0.d) and Siemens Eurobalises
??/??/2009 Zaragoza-Huesca: Alstom 2.2.2+ (without GSM-R)
15/12/2010 Torrejón de Velasco-Valencia and Albacete: Siemens (Invensys-Dimetronic) 2.3.0.d
21/12/2010 Figueres-Perpignan: Hitachi (Ansaldo) 2.3.0
21/12/2010 Can Tunis-Mollet and Girona-Figueres (for Vilamalla): Alstom Atlas 2.3.0.d
24/10/2011 Madrid-Lleida (ETCS 2, in addition to L1 (disconnected from 17/08/2016 until update 2.3.0.d)
11/12/2011 Ourense-Santiago: Thales 2.3.0.d
11/01/2012 Madrid Commuter C4: Siemens (Norte) and Thales (Sur) 2.3.0.d
09/01/2013 Barcelona-Figueres: Thales 2.3.0.d
09/05/2014 Albacete-Alicante (level 2 only): Alstom 2.3.0.d
10/2016 Torrejón de Velasco-Valencia and Albacete (ETCS 2, in addition to L1)
26/06/2019 Antequera-Granada (level 2 only): Siemens
01/07/2019 Valladolid-León (level 2 only): Alstom 2.3.0.d (Atlas 200)

Next lines:

29/12/2019 Camp de Tarragona-gauge changers of La Boella (level 1 and 2): Thales
29/12/2019 La Boella-Vandellós (level 1 without GSM-R): CAF Signalling 2.3.0.d
4T2019 Haramain Makkah-Medinah (level 2 only): Siemens
1T2020 Olmedo-Zamora (level 2 only): Thales
2020 Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (level 2 only): Thales
2020 Monforte del Cid-Beniel (level 2 only): CAF Signalling
2020 Atlantic Axis (level 1 without GSM-R): CAF Signalling (formerly Eliop Seinalia) (Auriga, Vigo Urzáiz-Redondela with Eurobalizas Siemens), Alstom (Atlas 100, Redondela-Villagarcía de Arousa) and Siemens (Trainguard Futur 1300 Vilagarcía de Arousa-Coruña).
2020 Barcelona Commuter R1 (level 2 only): Alstom (L'Hospitalet de Llobregat-Mataró, 56 km) and Bombardier equipment)
2020 Extremadura Plasencia-Badajoz (level 2 only): Bombardier Interface 450 Electronic Interlock Alstom Smartlock 300
2021 Variant of Pajares (level 2 only): Thales
2022 Barcelona Commuter (level 2 only): Manresa-Barcelona on line R4 north and Barcelona-Sant Vicenç de Calders on line R2 south
202? Vandellós-Villarreal and CRC Valencia-Vandellós (level 1 only): Thales Altrac
202? Seville-Utrera-Jerez (level 2 only): Thales and Siemens (Dimetronic)
202? Burriana-Valencia (level 1 only): Bombardier Interface 250
2023 Valencia-La Encina (L1 and 2) Thales and CAF Signalling
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Old November 12th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #111
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Denmark launches ERTMS on first eastern line

DANISH infrastructure manager Banedanmark has announced that it will launch ERTMS between Roskilde and Køge on December 15, marking the first use of the system in eastern Denmark.

https://www.railjournal.com/signalli...-eastern-line/
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Old November 14th, 2019, 11:32 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
Denmark launches ERTMS on first eastern line

DANISH infrastructure manager Banedanmark has announced that it will launch ERTMS between Roskilde and Køge on December 15, marking the first use of the system in eastern Denmark.

https://www.railjournal.com/signalli...-eastern-line/
Also in Denmark, first 6 of the main train type IC3 equipped with ERTMS are being put into operation.

Equipping IC3 with ERTMS was a major headache for Denmark, as these custom-designed DMU trains dating back to the 1980s had little space available on board for the quipment, and the conversion took years longer than anticipated. However, IC3 is the main long distance and regional train type, and also the basis for the electric IR4 and the cross-border electric Øresundstog train types, so it was imperative a solution was found to equip IC3 with ERTMS. In fact, the delay in equipping IC3's with ERTMS is a major reason why the resignalling program and by extension the electrification program in Denmark are delayed - as signals were replaced along tracks, Denmark needed trains to run on these converted lines, and with the delay in converting IC3s they did not.

Now these problems were solved and the program can continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
BDK is on a bit of a marketing blitz

Along with the first stretch in Østdanmark's ERTMS being put into service, the first 6 IC3 trains with ERTMS are being put into operation. Here is a video and a few pictures:



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Last edited by dysharmonica; November 14th, 2019 at 11:41 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2019, 02:04 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysharmonica View Post
as signals were replaced along tracks, Denmark needed trains to run on these converted lines
Replaced or removed? Denmark is going for Level 2, which if I remember correctly does not need signals but can have them. So far I have only seen L2 lines without signals, except of course where other signalling systems were also installed.

EDIT: I am referring to light signals / semaphores...
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Old November 14th, 2019, 02:18 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide84 View Post
Replaced or removed? Denmark is going for Level 2, which if I remember correctly does not need signals but can have them. So far I have only seen L2 lines without signals, except of course where other signalling systems were also installed.

EDIT: I am referring to light signals / semaphores...
I believe the goal in DK is to remove trackside light signals, but I used replace, since they are placing the various sensing and signal-sending tech along the tracks.

I do know the new high speed line Copenhagen - Ringsted has traditional signals installed alongside ERTMS because not enough trains were ready with ERTMS to run on the line and they needed to start using this track to relieve congestion on the old line.

I believe the other tracks that are in operation (which is just 3 or 4 short-ish segments) have had their trackside light signals removed and only converted rolling stck can operate there ... but others can (will) correct me if that is not the case.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 11:12 PM   #115
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I got interested in the topic and I just found this:

EU: Rail - Control command and signalling - CCS TSI NIP
National Implementation Plans (NIP) Country by Country
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes...ity/ccs-tsi_en

I apologize if it was already posted.
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Old November 20th, 2019, 08:59 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The UK doesn't have to, but inventing your own wheel is proven to be a bad and costly idea.

US PTC is not optimised for the UK. If you don't want ERTMS a Japanese system (JR East D-ATC?) would probably be a better choice, as their train operations are more similar to the UK.
Ah, just a friendly correction.
Japan developed their own CBTC solution too, which is known as ATACS (Advanced Train Administration and Control System) domestically and SPARCS for export (used in MRT Jakarta and Bangkok MRT Purple Line).
D-ATC is maybe equivalent to ETCS L2 with balises.
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