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Old September 4th, 2007, 03:50 PM   #41
Jus
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
much better this time

this is my first-time post here, dunno there's a line of insiders and outsiders in this forum, where the small group of "insiders" hold some kinds of sensitive privilege over outsiders.

I'll peace out and enjoy your very good response from your insiders
yes,,thats why they had to make these forums into different groups..like Asia - HK, Macau, China, Japan..and so forth, You dun wanna see a Taiwan and China forums clashed in the same one or Iraq and the US put in the same forum....right?? haha, and now you know..and u learn..which is better than someone who is jus being purely sentimental..

whether the small group of insiders hold some kinds of sensitive privilege over outsiders or not..I wouldnt know?? but it seems to me that ur saying that the minority has to listen to the majority, the minority should feel/act/think according to the majority???

OHHHH...dictatorship comes again........Im scared..

Thats why I said..some people dont really understand what democracy really means, coz they have never had a real taste of it..yeah ..I remember someone said that who would care about politics in China..blah blah...that doesnt mean that people wouldnt care about politics outside China??right? ..its NOT just about taking the majority as the standard and forget about the minority..it involves with "fair go" 'equal opportunities", 'fairness" and so forth...

by the way, I could be an outsider from your point of view..remember my metaphor, does egg look oval or circle? hehe

hmm...lets peace out in this case....

regards..

Last edited by Jus; September 4th, 2007 at 04:08 PM.
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Old September 4th, 2007, 06:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Jus View Post
From our point of view, we see Macanese people as the primary people of Macau,
Of course - but the Venetian isn't targeting the "primary people" of Macau is it? It's targeting the tourists.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 02:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
Of course - but the Venetian isn't targeting the "primary people" of Macau is it? It's targeting the tourists.
And a little bit of respect for Macanese people, no?
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Old September 5th, 2007, 06:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
Of course - but the Venetian isn't targeting the "primary people" of Macau is it? It's targeting the tourists.
OMG..you are going back to the business decision blah blah again..can you read this thread from the very beginning

we all know its targeting the tourists for sure....

its simply that Simplified Chinese in Macau is awkward for locals..thats all....

OH MY GOD..

I like this phase..
"Lets peace out..."
cheers
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Old September 5th, 2007, 09:09 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jus View Post
to be honest, there is no right or wrong to anyone here...
There are only a few points we made from the Macanese point of view.

Basically, for us, we just feel ODD and weird, and a bit uncomfortable or feel offended in a way when we see Simplified Chinese in Macau. thats all. I hope you understand that.

From our point of view, we see Macanese people as the primary people of Macau,

but from your point of view, you might reckon Macau people are only the minority..tourists from China should be the majority .....n you think thats the reality..whether it is or not..doesnt matter..coz what matters is who live in Macau and that matters!

we just cannot discuss based on two different grounds, or we cannot force you to agree with what we said..or vice versa...

I respect and understand where you are coming from, what you said are pretty true, but I just wanna add that our feeling (as in Macanese) cannot be ignored and disrespected.

Or you might think that this does not do with the issue of respect...but we do feel that way...okay..? and you cannot tell people how they should feel...

I have no intention to argue whether Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese
is better..

whosoever is going to say which one is better or it should be the standard..more or less has to do with this person's background or how this person got educated since he/she was young..agree? because we feel more comfortable to certain things (as in Traditional Chinese in this case)

and I really really want to point out is that,,,,,if you are not from this place, its very hard for you to understand how the locals feel...please try to understand this point...to you or to whoever from other places..

you cannot just come into other people's forum and disregard the feelings/comments from what local people have made...because there are different feelings involved from outsiders and locals in Macau (of course, there are exceptions - as in different opinions, thats hows we so-called the democracy)

from other people's point of view..as in outsiders..they might not think this could be a big issue or its just a trivial matter...or even tho it is just a very trivial/minor issue.

the people who live there might not think as the same as what you think....you just really need to understand this basic view....

you might think this is okay, this is not a big issue, you feel fine, BUT, some people do not feel this way in Mcau..we think it matters, and we feel a bit offended in some way.....and I sincerely hope that you could respect this point...

This could be true that more people are learning Simplified Chinese these days, but it doesnt mean that we have to give up Traditional Chinese.....or we only have to adopt one of them n give up the other one....To be more realistic,,shouldnt we let both exist at the same time <- please do not dwell into this topic..I originally was only talking about the simplified chinese signs in Venetian Macau,, I didnt mean to compare which one is better or which one should be the standard..

hkskyline, I guess you have said sth very inappropriate and more or less have offended to its people a bit,,I did not mean that what you said was wrong,, you were right in most examples you gave Indeed, but you have ignored the fact that our feelings n thoughts might not line up as what you thought that so simple! ..or simply you just dun get this emotion...

What you said to me is just like how these rich gambling business people treating the locals now..tourists come first..local people come second...

and this is how you think...but we do not feel this way, we believe that Macanese people should come first ALWAYS...OKAY?and you meant that we should appreciate that we become richer and got more job opportunities..to tell you the truth..a lot of people do MISS the old lives we had in Macau..quiet..peaceful..people were friendly and close...

I tell you that this is not true everyone in Macau do love what's happening right now....we expect a very severe negative impact will come someday..

We are coming from two different thoughts, for what you have said..they were true n right,, for what we have said..they were also true and right.....

but this is the forum about Macau..Whoever Macanese has made a point here more or less should represent a portion of its people...and it also means that some people do agree with these points here...

and it just DOESNT REALLY MATTER how the HK or Chinese Chinese people think..of course,, you can express your opinions here..but the point these people have made here cannot represent the people of Macau, or they will never understand....You just cannot tell the Macau people how they should feel and accept whatever its happening...Do you really live in that environment for a long period and have got a very good interaction with people there? If not, you would not understand that so-called VALUE...

What makes people different is the culture, value and habit or custom...and all these factors here determine that person's identity...you see my point?

so if you do not own that identity or its not even your identity ..how can you
judge that identity of that place...??????

we know that we cannot ask Venetian Macao to change their signs..blah blah blah..thats not really realistic..
but shouldnt we have a bit space n freedom here to express our thoughts about this issue...and you come and tell us this and that,, you said your stuff in the very business's point of view..but I pointed out this issue from the emotional point of view as in how the people would think in Macau, I wouldnt say everyone in Macau would think the same as what I think, but at least I can tell you that the people I know (as in my friends and family) do share
the view as what I think...at least ..some people from Macau here in this forum do see my points...and that matters...

finally and again I understand everything you said and points taken...so you do not need to repeat your business decision..blah blah...

regards
I don't think it's wrong to express discomfort when change is forced onto people. After all, change is not always accepted with open arms. Sure, it's expected that locals feel uncomfortable that Simplified Chinese is now used as a business decision, while the home-grown turf is still engrained in Traditional Chinese. I don't think there's a problem with that at all, but some of the reasons and solutions presented to make the problem go away didn't make sense, which is why we must go back to analyze the difference between a business decision and a government objective.

Macau and Hong Kong are inherently small places, and we must look beyond our borders for survival, which makes us a bit helpless when change arises among our neighbors. However, this change doesn't necessary mean a gradual erosion of our local cultures. In fact, we're holding up pretty well in light of our much larger neighbor already. What might result in the future is that local culture will survive but we'll have to be knowledgeable enough of the much larger mainland culture, and these Simplified Chinese signs signal the beginning of a new era when local Macanese and Hong Kongers will need to adopt something new on top of what we have. Notice it's not the same as replacing what we have with something new.

In fact, greater interaction with the mainland may very well showcase our unique cultures, and help preserve it. They're not immigrating here and overtaking the local population, so I don't think assimilation fears are valid. Having a lot of Mandarin-speaking Simplified Chinese-reading tourists around won't force local-to-local interaction to change, right?
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Old September 5th, 2007, 10:45 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
In fact, greater interaction with the mainland may very well showcase our unique cultures, and help preserve it. They're not immigrating here and overtaking the local population, so I don't think assimilation fears are valid. Having a lot of Mandarin-speaking Simplified Chinese-reading tourists around won't force local-to-local interaction to change, right?
thats NOT true!
who said they are not immigrating HERE?? haha..think first then say it..?

Assimilation fears are very valid unfortunately..!but i wouldnt call it fear..
fear is a big word, I would like to call it disrespect, annoyance and arrogance..

Having a lot of Mandarin-speaking Simplified Chinese-reading tourists around WILL force local-to-local interaction to change <-YES it will! when time goes by...honestly,,you really hav to think first before you say it....haha..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
After all, change is not always accepted with open arms. Sure, it's expected that locals feel uncomfortable that Simplified Chinese is now used as a business decision,
Thats it,, thats my point...- uncomfortable...if you like to call it this way...
why do you keep dwelling on this business decision..haha..I hav said it your points got taken..business decision rite...?

Look! I would NOT think that tourists from China would not come to Macau or HK because we are using Traditional Chinese, On the other hand, Using Simplified Chinese in HK and Macau would not make people feel like coming MORE..you got it?


In fact, when people are traveling to another place, they would like to see the local culture there..

I DO not want to go to Korea and that looks exactly like Macau. I wanna feel the real atmosphere over there. If that place is same as my hometown..What's so surprising goin there for?

As you know, People going to Macau is mainly for gambling these days, I do not think that using Traditional Chinese will minimize the numbers of these tourists going there..

So Now..back to your Business decision! wat a term..
I guess if Venetian uses Traditional Chinese at their new flagship. they will still have the same amount of the tourists going there and the locals wont feel you so-called uncomfortable either...rite? It doesnt mean to me its a very good business decision anywayz..? hehe, they hav the right to put these signs everywhere..we also have the right to feel against...simple is that..

Again, I dont wanna repeat myself..and hope you are not gonna repeat urself either. I said that this is just an expression of the locals feeling....doesnt mean that we hav to go to the gov or protest right outside their company...

If you wanna go adapt, feel free to do so..but I have said that <- Im goin to repeat myself again,

there are something we have to be firm about, and something should be flexible..

we can adapt there are 35,000,000 tourists coming to Macau every year
we can adapt that the traffic jam is getting worse
we can adapt that there are more crimes happening..
we can adapt that there could be a casino next to where I live..
................

but we cannot adapt using the Mainland Chinese laws IN MACAU yet,,
we cannot adapt speaking MANDARIN DAILY IN MACAU yet everywhere I go..
we cannot adapt 2 see all signs in Simplified Chinese IN MACAU yet..
at least ..NOT NOW...

Do not get me wrong tho

I would love to improve my Mandarin or I would love to know more about China..coz its good when there is a need I have to go work or live in China..

but when I come home which is Macau..
it should still have it own identity and that makes the people feel this is HOME....and thats why CULTURE AND IDENTITY ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE.

Last edited by Jus; September 5th, 2007 at 10:50 AM.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 01:19 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus View Post
thats NOT true!
who said they are not immigrating HERE?? haha..think first then say it..?

Assimilation fears are very valid unfortunately..!but i wouldnt call it fear..
fear is a big word, I would like to call it disrespect, annoyance and arrogance..
Think of the issue on hand. Are mainland immigrants edging out the local population, causing a fundamental shift in language use? This is not Xinjiang. There are no plans to force people into either Hong Kong or Macau to edge out Cantonese.

Unless the local population is flooded with Mandarin-speaking mainland Chinese, I don't see the disappearance of Cantonese from either Macau or Hong Kong. In fact, Cantonese is still being spoken in Guangzhou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus View Post
Having a lot of Mandarin-speaking Simplified Chinese-reading tourists around WILL force local-to-local interaction to change <-YES it will! when time goes by...honestly,,you really hav to think first before you say it....haha..
In what way? Just because the tourists speak it means the locals will drop their language and use it as well? Is it logical? Of course not. Hong Kong hasn't seen Cantonese disappear despite our close economic ties to China. Cantonese still survived despite the British colonial presence and English being used as part of our international financial centre role. How would the locals adapt to a different language when it is not being pushed through the educational system? Have schools switched to all Mandarin and Simplified Chinese instruction now in order to force locals to drop their existing language?

Perhaps the uncomfort over China's rise is giving way to fear and hype that borders along the irrational.

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Originally Posted by Jus View Post
Thats it,, thats my point...- uncomfortable...if you like to call it this way...
why do you keep dwelling on this business decision..haha..I hav said it your points got taken..business decision rite...?

Look! I would NOT think that tourists from China would not come to Macau or HK because we are using Traditional Chinese, On the other hand, Using Simplified Chinese in HK and Macau would not make people feel like coming MORE..you got it?
Putting up Simplified Chinese signs makes mainland visitors feel more at home, and appreciated that they're being valued. That's all. It's a business decision. I don't think there is an empirical study saying language X will drive more tourists to come, but what cannot be denied is the customer experience would be enhanced if the customer sees something in his language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus View Post
In fact, when people are traveling to another place, they would like to see the local culture there..

I DO not want to go to Korea and that looks exactly like Macau. I wanna feel the real atmosphere over there. If that place is same as my hometown..What's so surprising goin there for?

As you know, People going to Macau is mainly for gambling these days, I do not think that using Traditional Chinese will minimize the numbers of these tourists going there..
Now they can see Macau's casinos and navigate with ease in Simplified Chinese. These signs don't take away from the rest of the tourist experience, do they? Would a mainland tourist all of a sudden confuse himself with the Venetian being in Shanghai? In fact, the Venetian itself is quite a bad representation of what Macau's history and heritage has to offer anyway. It was literally copied over from Vegas. I'd think despite these signs, people would think they're in Vegas instead of Macau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus View Post
So Now..back to your Business decision! wat a term..
I guess if Venetian uses Traditional Chinese at their new flagship. they will still have the same amount of the tourists going there and the locals wont feel you so-called uncomfortable either...rite? It doesnt mean to me its a very good business decision anywayz..? hehe, they hav the right to put these signs everywhere..we also have the right to feel against...simple is that..
Then perhaps you can find out from the Venetian whether signage would not play a role in their patronage. Without actual numbers, you don't have any basis to make such a conclusion. From a logical point of view, these signs help tourists navigate, and will enhance the travel experience. Same concept as with what has happened in other countries, such as Europe tourism guides in Chinese or bilingual signs with English in Swedish rail stations. While I haven't heard of tourism numbers collapse in a non-English speaking country using non-English signs, it's quite logical that an English-speaking person would appreciate seeing an English sign in a non-English-speaking country for ease of navigation.

You have a right to feel uncomfortable about that, but it doesn't change the fact that the tourist will benefit from these Simplified Chinese signs. Both thoughts are valid and can co-exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus View Post
we can adapt there are 35,000,000 tourists coming to Macau every year
we can adapt that the traffic jam is getting worse
we can adapt that there are more crimes happening..
we can adapt that there could be a casino next to where I live..
................

but we cannot adapt using the Mainland Chinese laws IN MACAU yet,,
we cannot adapt speaking MANDARIN DAILY IN MACAU yet everywhere I go..
we cannot adapt 2 see all signs in Simplified Chinese IN MACAU yet..
at least ..NOT NOW...
I don't think it has gotten to that level yet, and I doubt that will likely happen any time soon. Perhaps this uncomfort over rising China is causing such sensational thoughts of what the worst case scenario may be. I don't see any indications that mainland law will replace our independent judiciary. Isn't that against the terms of the handover? Crime is likely going to be a problem, but moreso from the triads that run the casinos, and not the tourists actually commiting them. Traffic is likely to worsen but the large casino campuses are on new land in Taipa away from the traditional residential areas, so if anything bad really happens it should be confined to those tourist zones and the roads to the ferry terminal / airport.

What is certain is the desire to preserve local culture amidst change. That's a great sign. It shows a level of maturity among both Macanese and Hong Kongers realizing that we cannot forgo our identity for the sake of doing business. What we can do is to showcase our culture by taking advantage of the increased interaction with foreign tourists. A great way to do it, ironically, is to lure these gambling tourists out of the casinos to see what UNESCO World Heritage sites have to offer.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Think of the issue on hand. Are mainland immigrants edging out the local population, causing a fundamental shift in language use? This is not Xinjiang. There are no plans to force people into either Hong Kong or Macau to edge out Cantonese.

Unless the local population is flooded with Mandarin-speaking mainland Chinese, I don't see the disappearance of Cantonese from either Macau or Hong Kong. In fact, Cantonese is still being spoken in Guangzhou.

In what way? Just because the tourists speak it means the locals will drop their language and use it as well? Is it logical? Of course not. Hong Kong hasn't seen Cantonese disappear despite our close economic ties to China. Cantonese still survived despite the British colonial presence and English being used as part of our international financial centre role. How would the locals adapt to a different language when it is not being pushed through the educational system? Have schools switched to all Mandarin and Simplified Chinese instruction now in order to force locals to drop their existing language?

Perhaps the uncomfort over China's rise is giving way to fear and hype that borders along the irrational.
No one said Cantonese is gonna phase out...in fact.it wont, there are 30 mil using cantonese as their mother tounge..
I just simply meant that the local to local interaction will change, I guess the good example would be the influence from HK to Macau.

since there was a big influence from HK in the last 50 years, people in Macau tend to watch Hk channels...newspapers..and so forth (im not saying its wrong or right)

Through last 50 years, you can really tell that HK and Macau accents are very similar or you can say that they are the same, and the way people behave in Macau as well, people might behave at certain same way as the HK people.

Interaction between locals does not only include Cantonese in Macau! it includes values and other factors..

You just said that Local to Local interaction will not change even tho there will a massive number of chinese tourists going to Macau

I just meant that this is not TRUE! thats all..

you started talkin about a lot of irrelevant stuff here...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Putting up Simplified Chinese signs makes mainland visitors feel more at home, and appreciated that they're being valued. That's all. It's a business decision. I don't think there is an empirical study saying language X will drive more tourists to come, but what cannot be denied is the customer experience would be enhanced if the customer sees something in his language.


Now they can see Macau's casinos and navigate with ease in Simplified Chinese. These signs don't take away from the rest of the tourist experience, do they? Would a mainland tourist all of a sudden confuse himself with the Venetian being in Shanghai? In fact, the Venetian itself is quite a bad representation of what Macau's history and heritage has to offer anyway. It was literally copied over from Vegas. I'd think despite these signs, people would think they're in Vegas instead of Macau.
I tell you what!, somehow you just cannot change people;s nature. In general ,Chinese people like gambling, and the gambling tax is the main part of income for the gov...

using Traditional Chinese does not mean that these tourists are not being valued and that makes them not feel like coming. They can be valued in so many ways, local people can be polite to them, treat them nicely, show them a big smiley face. that's more practical because through the REAL human beings interaction between the locals and the tourists. These tourists feel that this is real, they are being treated well and they will remember this valuable experience they had with the locals in Macau...

Indeed, locals do feel that they are not feel valued...
I guess you just keep having this first priority feeling for tourists all the time here...
Im just speechless..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Then perhaps you can find out from the Venetian whether signage would not play a role in their patronage. Without actual numbers, you don't have any basis to make such a conclusion. From a logical point of view, these signs help tourists navigate, and will enhance the travel experience. Same concept as with what has happened in other countries, such as Europe tourism guides in Chinese or bilingual signs with English in Swedish rail stations. While I haven't heard of tourism numbers collapse in a non-English speaking country using non-English signs, it's quite logical that an English-speaking person would appreciate seeing an English sign in a non-English-speaking country for ease of navigation.
Oh my god, you started talking crazy now..
first of all, english is an international language, I am not surprised I can even see English in China..even tho thats Chinglish
Second of all, this is important, you are talking about 2 very different languages..

For instance, I can only real Japanese, if I can see Japanese signs in Vietnam,
I would feel comfortable..that could be true, because I can not read Vietnamese in this case.

Its different here in this issue. Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese are still chinese, more or less, People from China can read Traditional Chinese at some certain degree,, i got some friends from China, they told me that they have no problem reading Traditional Chinese because they learned that from Karaoke for instance, and they just understand the words even tho they have never learned Traditional chinese before because both characters are similar in some way...

just like if you can understand traditional Chinese,, You can generally understand some Simplified Chinese..

so I DUN see that its important whether using Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese for the tourists
but it is IMPORTANT whether they are using Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese for the locals in MACAU!

you are talking 2 very different languages here mate..this cannot be applied to this case here..GOSH..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You have a right to feel uncomfortable about that, but it doesn't change the fact that the tourist will benefit from these Simplified Chinese signs. Both thoughts are valid and can co-exist.
Benefit?? you okay?
if they can win the money from the casinos,, they feel thats the real benefit..mate..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I don't think it has gotten to that level yet, and I doubt that will likely happen any time soon. Perhaps this uncomfort over rising China is causing such sensational thoughts of what the worst case scenario may be. I don't see any indications that mainland law will replace our independent judiciary. Isn't that against the terms of the handover? Crime is likely going to be a problem, but moreso from the triads that run the casinos, and not the tourists actually commiting them. Traffic is likely to worsen but the large casino campuses are on new land in Taipa away from the traditional residential areas, so if anything bad really happens it should be confined to those tourist zones and the roads to the ferry terminal / airport.
what about we just build a city for the tourists???
as you said..how big is Macau?, confine a tourist zone and people will not go to other places..

Macau is so bloody small even tho including the cotai strip..you really think that residential areas will have less traffic..haha

Look at the Map of Macau, the furtherest north of Macau is connected to China.
Ponte 16 is next to China and there is a custom as well
Cotai is next to lotus bridge to China..haha
then airport, ferry terminals..

Tourists are everywhere man and they come in all different channels! ...honestly,,.do you really live there and know how the life style is really like there??

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
What is certain is the desire to preserve local culture amidst change. That's a great sign. It shows a level of maturity among both Macanese and Hong Kongers realizing that we cannot forgo our identity for the sake of doing business. What we can do is to showcase our culture by taking advantage of the increased interaction with foreign tourists. A great way to do it, ironically, is to lure these gambling tourists out of the casinos to see what UNESCO World Heritage sites have to offer.
This is even more shocking!
UNESCO is a very good gimmick and advantage to lure more tourists..
but this part is hardly hardly the anchor point to lure the Chinese tourists to Macau..
there are certain natures and attitudes in every single ethnics.
For example, you can see that how the westerns/japanese travel, Generally speaking, they prefer backpacking or traveling by themselves instead of joining a tour unless that place is risky or unsafe to travel by themselves...

Chinese from China, they prefer joining up tours (when they travel overseas) dressing up with SUIT and leather shoes even tho they are visiting the Zoo or standing at the Gold Coast beach under 40C,,,they are still in SUIT.. Go to Hac Sai in Coloane, you will be surprised why the black sands have started disappearing and there are a lot business like people in SUIT standing in the water
with half of their pants unfolded up above their knees and eating BBQ Chicken wings...


What I am saying is, there could be some chinese tourists like taking some pictures in front of St Paul Cathedral or really interested in knowing the the history of Macau.but if you are talking about Culture Travel They are not up to this part yet generally..and mainly, why do they wanna come to Macau, I am sure you do know why....

Last edited by Jus; September 5th, 2007 at 05:09 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 06:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuMun View Post
And a little bit of respect for Macanese people, no?
Respect? In the business world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUS
OMG..you are going back to the business decision blah blah again..can you read this thread from the very beginning

we all know its targeting the tourists for sure....

its simply that Simplified Chinese in Macau is awkward for locals..thats all....

OH MY GOD..

I like this phase..
"Lets peace out..."
cheers
Because it's correct.

I suspect there won't be many Macanese folk in the casinos - so why should a business cater to whom it doesn't serve?
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Old September 5th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #50
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Venetian should use traditional Chinese along with simplified Chinese and English for all the signs, so people will not complaint in this case. I don’t mind whatever languages they are using, but traditional Chinese is a must, this is just a way to show some respect to the locals, and Macau itself.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 07:01 PM   #51
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Anyway, the causes of all these problems are because of the gov, they never thought about the long term effects and consequences to the public when they issued the gambling licenses, and because the society cannot adapt the pace of change, therefore the problems start to get arise. But its too late to change now

Its good to have tourists or people migrates / work in Macau, no matter where they are coming from, but if they create threats to the locals, then I guess its just not very good in this case. The problem now we have in Macau is we relies too much everything on the foreigners (especially the mainlander). I don’t mean it is bad to let the foreigners to work or stay in Macau, but now we just have way too many and they are start taking over the positions from the locals. The locals now have to compete with these foreigners, just to save their job. Just take a look at the labours working in the construction sites here in Macau, they are either from HK or mainland China, and the locals become unemployed. Is this fair? Who should be blame for? Of course its the gov fault.

On the other hand, we know there are many projects coming up in Macau, but if you think again, doest it really benefit much to the locals here in Macau?

Macau used to be a very relax and quiet place before. Even though the economy wasn’t so good before the turnover, but everyone seems to be happier than what is going on now. The poorer one is not living better off because of the booming economy. These people are earning even less than what they used to earn and at the same time they have to work a lot harder. Only the rich one and those who have jobs at casinos are better off. Everything is just getting worse these days, wages has been increase a lot but still cannot catch up with the inflation levels, and pollutions, the crowds on the streets, property prices, traffic jams, and most importantly, people’s lifestyle. So do you think this is good or bad? Again, this is because of the gov bad planning and decisions.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 04:46 AM   #52
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i think traditional, so it will be easier for japanese to read


BTW i think macau is such a beautiful place
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Old September 6th, 2007, 04:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Maki-chan View Post
i think traditional, so it will be easier for japanese to read

BTW i think macau is such a beautiful place
And Korea, HK,Taiwan, other Chinese in Asia....
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Old September 6th, 2007, 08:25 AM   #54
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Anyway, the causes of all these problems are because of the gov, they never thought about the long term effects and consequences to the public when they issued the gambling licenses, and because the society cannot adapt the pace of change, therefore the problems start to get arise. But its too late to change now
Is the Cafe des Artistes restaurant in Hong Kong showing disrespect to locals by using French first, and then English (note: no sign of any form of Chinese) on their menus?

Is the Gaddi's? Is the Petrus?

And more importantly, do you see the average Sham Shui Po resident complaining to all and sundry within ear shot of how these above restaurants are disrespecting him and the average Hong Kong local by not displaying in their restaurants, their menu in a language he understands, to a place he shall, most likely, never visit?

Last edited by _00_deathscar; September 6th, 2007 at 08:33 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 08:30 AM   #55
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Venetian should use traditional Chinese along with simplified Chinese and English for all the signs, so people will not complaint in this case. I don’t mind whatever languages they are using, but traditional Chinese is a must, this is just a way to show some respect to the locals, and Macau itself.
Yes, that is one way around it (and I think in this case suitable and workable) - but where do you draw the line?

Suppose (hypothetically speaking) an Indian restaurant, geared mostly for Macau's Indian population opens up; how many languages should they display their menu in? English? Traditional Chinese? Simplified Chinese? Hindi? Marathi? Bengali? Gujrati? Tamil? French for the Pondicherry residents of India should any happen to live in Macau?
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Old September 6th, 2007, 08:52 AM   #56
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what about we just build a city for the tourists???
as you said..how big is Macau?, confine a tourist zone and people will not go to other places..

Macau is so bloody small even tho including the cotai strip..you really think that residential areas will have less traffic..haha
Would the tourists leave the casino strips and venture into the residential areas en masse? For what reason? Do they need to pass through people's homes to get to the airport or ferry terminal? Are these residential areas particularly interesting tourist areas? No. Is that even logical? Macau is a small place, but not that small. The separation of the casino strip with the rest of the city is very evident. Perhaps that was the planners' original intention. In fact, the Venetian is a great example the self-sustainable resort whereby people get sucked inside and don't need to leave. That's what the casino wants to achieve.

Would a visitor to New York live in Midtown, go to Queens in order to reach Times Square?

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Look at the Map of Macau, the furtherest north of Macau is connected to China.
Ponte 16 is next to China and there is a custom as well
Cotai is next to lotus bridge to China..haha
then airport, ferry terminals..
People get to the Zhuhai land border by bus. They won't be strolling around on the streets, and they certainly won't be walking there from the casinos. Hence, the likelihood of residents being forced to switch to Mandarin and Simplified Chinese is minimal. Even now it has not happened.

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Tourists are everywhere man and they come in all different channels! ...honestly,,.do you really live there and know how the life style is really like there??
A booming tourism industry is not the same as tourists being intertwined with residents in everyday life. Would these tourists be living next door in your apartment building, eat breakfast in the restaurant downstairs, and buying tarts at the local bakery? How much will ordinary Macanese see of these tourists? Just like any other city with large tourist numbers, these visitors are confined to limited swathes of the city. They won't be everywhere as you portray them to be. Macau is not that small such that everyone coexists on the same block.

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UNESCO is a very good gimmick and advantage to lure more tourists..
but this part is hardly hardly the anchor point to lure the Chinese tourists to Macau..
there are certain natures and attitudes in every single ethnics.
For example, you can see that how the westerns/japanese travel, Generally speaking, they prefer backpacking or traveling by themselves instead of joining a tour unless that place is risky or unsafe to travel by themselves...
UNESCO adds to the tourism appeal, while casinos really appeal to mainland tourists. This actually contradicts with your point that tourists will be everywhere. If they love gambling so much, would they even bother go out to see all the UNESCO sites, let alone venture even beyond that to the residential quarters not frequented by tourists?

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Chinese from China, they prefer joining up tours (when they travel overseas) dressing up with SUIT and leather shoes even tho they are visiting the Zoo or standing at the Gold Coast beach under 40C,,,they are still in SUIT.. Go to Hac Sai in Coloane, you will be surprised why the black sands have started disappearing and there are a lot business like people in SUIT standing in the water
with half of their pants unfolded up above their knees and eating BBQ Chicken wings...
This also contradicts your point that tourists will be everywhere and interfere with locals. Would these tours even go into the residential areas? I'd be surprised if they visit all the key tourist sites, let alone venture out further.

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What I am saying is, there could be some chinese tourists like taking some pictures in front of St Paul Cathedral or really interested in knowing the the history of Macau.but if you are talking about Culture Travel They are not up to this part yet generally..and mainly, why do they wanna come to Macau, I am sure you do know why....
This supports my theory that mainland tourists would be stuck in the casinos and there will be very minimal interaction with locals beyond the business setting (ie. at the hotel, within the casino). Hence, it's very questionable whether the adoption of Simplified Chinese signs actually signals a change in the language and cultural landscape of Macau. Sure, people will now have to learn the language to take advantage of these visitors to drum up business, but would that mean you will talk to your family in Mandarin and newspapers will change to Simplified Chinese from now on? The impact on everyday life won't be so severe. Uncomfort over this new tourism trend should not give rise to fear.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:09 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
Respect? In the business world?



Because it's correct.

I suspect there won't be many Macanese folk in the casinos - so why should a business cater to whom it doesn't serve?
you are repeating why hkskyline said, we hav got his points..and he got responded as well..so please do not go back to that business blah blah..
or you might need to read from the very beginning of this post
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:22 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
Is the Cafe des Artistes restaurant in Hong Kong showing disrespect to locals by using French first, and then English (note: no sign of any form of Chinese) on their menus?

Is the Gaddi's? Is the Petrus?

And more importantly, do you see the average Sham Shui Po resident complaining to all and sundry within ear shot of how these above restaurants are disrespecting him and the average Hong Kong local by not displaying in their restaurants, their menu in a language he understands, to a place he shall, most likely, never visit?
This is funny stuff man...first of all, ahah, i guess not every single person from Macau know where this french place is???? coz we are from Macau...hah

Second of all, you need to understand that...ahhh..you cannot denied the fact that most people in Hk are WESTERN-ORIENTED in HK..or even in Macau. as in people might think:


they feel proud about themselves when they speak mixing with English and Cantonese, and it makes other people think that they from overseas, they a westerner....they are better

People tend to love buying products from Japan, USA (as in brands, not where they were made).

People think that using English/French/Italian in public areas or they can speak a bit european languages or japanese, they feel more high-class and they feel proud of it (i personally do not agree with this,but this is the reality)

Please do not use HK as an example or standard for Macau okay?,,,I dun know all those places where they are, you jus suppose people would know what you can see/go/play in HK???...sorry mate ...and we are discussing about Macau here...

you guys think okay,,does it mean that we hav to think OKAY?

why DO u people always have to think that you are the standard...???you are..only in the place where you are from..not in other people's territories???

so if we dun think its okay,,this is our business......

perhaps you havnt been to a place in Hk where only Simplified Chinese is shown there or only RMB is accepted, and that place has to be the biggest building there in HK or in Asia, everybody will go...by then.. you might feel differently...

FRENCH/ENGLSH/AMERICAN/JAPANESE

these are what HK people wanna be..okay?
look at how people dress up, act, talk, behave in HK....

again..this is not a fight between HK and Macau
I personally really love HK..HK..woo...live it..LOVE It!
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by _00_deathscar View Post
Yes, that is one way around it (and I think in this case suitable and workable) - but where do you draw the line?

Suppose (hypothetically speaking) an Indian restaurant, geared mostly for Macau's Indian population opens up; how many languages should they display their menu in? English? Traditional Chinese? Simplified Chinese? Hindi? Marathi? Bengali? Gujrati? Tamil? French for the Pondicherry residents of India should any happen to live in Macau?
when the time the Indian population has gone up to more than the locals..I guess they might really have to put up those Indian languages on menu...haha

but DO NOT FORGET, Traditional Chinese has to be remained...

so in this case with Venetian there is no problem at all they should have put Traditional Chinese aligned with Simplified Chinese..

and you are talkin about a restaurant, it can be ignored, but we are talking about the biggest building in Asia ..located in a tiny place called Macau..
Can the locals ignore it??we did not hav many shopping malls already...we only had ONE - sadly as you know .. do the local people have other choices if they wanna go walking in a shopping mall on the weekend...Can they have a bit leisure to relax a bit other than going into casinos?..we do not have many cinemas..3 left, no big shopping mall, sports venues have been used for building casinos or empty plaza..

I guess that people really hav to go to venetian for a bit relaxation in their daily life at this stage, coz they do not have many options...

of course ..if there are more than ten resort buildings as big as Venetian in Macau,,I guess the local people do have a choice not to go to Venetian...

Can you not repeat what hkskyline has said?? okay......they have got responded already..

again, I love HK..I do not wanna make a fight between HK and Macau
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:52 PM   #60
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Out of curiosity, how is Macau's media reacting to the Venetian so far? I haven't heard much from Hong Kong media on the down sides of this casino so far. Those Simplified Chinese signs are probably a hot news topic or has it been drowned out by other news about the casino? I think the media can certainly exert some pressure on the casino in that regard.

I think a lot of your points are perfectly legitimate, and have been debated quite extensively in Hong Kong as well. Despite close economic ties to China, we are just as suspicious and resentful to losing our institutions, way of life, and culture. Had something similar happened to Hong Kong, I'm sure we'll be buzzing around the forums by now arguing the same things. Macau and Hong Kong are very similar friends.
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