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Old January 9th, 2020, 10:59 PM   #5541
Leeds No.1
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I've always personally been a big fan of the Class 333s. Weren't they designed to have even more powerful acceleration on the hilly routes they run?
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Old January 9th, 2020, 11:53 PM   #5542
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Caught my first Class 331 train today on the Wharfedale line. Hope this soon means the end of the handful of Class 322s running on the line but despite being brand new I don’t think they’re necessarily better than the quality Class 333s that generally run the route. Lots of tables which is nice when quiet but I’m not sure how practical they’ll be on a packed commuter service - surely not a good idea and are there not many fewer seats for the tables and having only 4 seats across rather than 5 as on the 333s? The seats are pretty hard, seats don’t line up with windows, they make a loud noise like a vacuum cleaner when on-board and the overall build quality seems inferior to that of some new trains. Also prefer the information screens being above the central corridor too rather than above the seats on partition walls. Still, I’m nitpicking and if you’re used to a Pacer every day then the diesel version of these trains will feel like you’ve teleported into the distant future. Presume still no news on any platform lengthening to allow for six car formations?
I think they're a similar design to the 195s running Leeds > Manc Vic via Bradford.

Nicer than the old stuff on that route for me so at least I'm more likely to get a seat & air-conditioning too but too many tables for a commuter train and poor lining up of seats to windows. Least the NVH is lower and quieter than older diesel trains.

Major design flaw for me (probs for 331 too) is lack of grab bars & handles in the door vestibule area (like in the roof, or above the door). As they're designed for people to stand in these areas more than old ones there is a distinct lack of them. The issue comes to head if you're the unlucky few stood bang in the middle of the door floor area - you have nothing to hold onto and it's too far to reach the bars around. I nearly deck it half a dozen times due to the 'grabby' brakes.
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Old January 10th, 2020, 11:05 AM   #5543
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TRANSPORT | City Region

The issue of the grab rails is something I didn’t pick up on at the time but you’re absolutely right. Unless Northern thought they were going to solve all their overcrowding issues with no people standing then this is a huge oversight and smacks of Northern not really putting any real thought into the practicality of their new trains - a real schoolboy error! I can sort of forgive it on longer slightly distance route such as Leeds > Man Vic but seems especially silly on a 30 minute one. Would be interested to hear anyone’s experience of them at peak times - surely we’ll hear of problems soon. The door vestibule areas do seem slightly bigger than the 333s so I imagine we’ll see lots of tightly packed people there (with nothing to hold onto).

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I've always personally been a big fan of the Class 333s. Weren't they designed to have even more powerful acceleration on the hilly routes they run?
Quite possibly - they’re a pretty powerful unit and just a quality piece of kit all round - in fact, I was quite surprised to see them running in Yorkshire given their sister units, 332s, are good enough for the London > Heathrow route - surely we are not worthy!

Looking forward to seeing the back of Northern purely for its terrible train liveries - surely the weakest branding of all the TOCs.

Last edited by oyster; January 10th, 2020 at 11:18 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2020, 01:17 PM   #5544
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The issue of the grab rails is something I didn’t pick up on at the time but you’re absolutely right. Unless Northern thought they were going to solve all their overcrowding issues with no people standing then this is a huge oversight and smacks of Northern not really putting any real thought into the practicality of their new trains - a real schoolboy error! I can sort of forgive it on longer slightly distance route such as Leeds > Man Vic but seems especially silly on a 30 minute one. Would be interested to hear anyone’s experience of them at peak times - surely we’ll hear of problems soon. The door vestibule areas do seem slightly bigger than the 333s so I imagine we’ll see lots of tightly packed people there (with nothing to hold onto).



Quite possibly - they’re a pretty powerful unit and just a quality piece of kit all round - in fact, I was quite surprised to see them running in Yorkshire given their sister units, 332s, are good enough for the London > Heathrow route - surely we are not worthy!

Looking forward to seeing the back of Northern purely for its terrible train liveries - surely the weakest branding of all the TOCs.
Yep - it seems like they didn't necessarily build a mock-up and get real world people to test as in a simulator for the handles. The 16:42 Leeds to Chester service is allocated as a 195 and is frequently overcrowded (on the 195 3-car ones) so it's very obvious when setting off if you happen to be stuck in the middle with no access to a handle, esp leaving P6 to all the movement over the points with all the jarring & bumping as the train switches tracks.

For the 333s - I think these were financed or bought by Metro/WYCA back in the day specifically for use on the Airedale line when it was electrified properly. Hence why they don't appear elsewhere as I think Metro/WYCA may still have some form of ownership over it. That could explain why they were in the red 'M' livery and not the older purple Northern one until they were fully re-done to Northern Railway 'white' as part of PRM mods.
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Old January 12th, 2020, 12:00 AM   #5545
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Yep - it seems like they didn't necessarily build a mock-up and get real world people to test as in a simulator for the handles. The 16:42 Leeds to Chester service is allocated as a 195 and is frequently overcrowded (on the 195 3-car ones) so it's very obvious when setting off if you happen to be stuck in the middle with no access to a handle, esp leaving P6 to all the movement over the points with all the jarring & bumping as the train switches tracks.

For the 333s - I think these were financed or bought by Metro/WYCA back in the day specifically for use on the Airedale line when it was electrified properly. Hence why they don't appear elsewhere as I think Metro/WYCA may still have some form of ownership over it. That could explain why they were in the red 'M' livery and not the older purple Northern one until they were fully re-done to Northern Railway 'white' as part of PRM mods.




When the electrification of the Leeds - Bradford Forster Square / Skipton / Ilkley railway lines had taken place the original intention was to acquire Class 323's as used around Birmingham and Manchester although the privatisation of British Rail resulted in the cancellation of the plans which instead saw the use of tired old Class 308's which were used between London and Essex and latterly briefly in the West Midlands. Certainly the 308's were anachronistic old trains when they were in use which long required replacement by the time the 333's were introduced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_323

Also it is worth noting that the Class 323's were built at the now closed Hunslet train factory in Leeds.

As for overcrowding on the 195's and 331's it does certainly seem typical Northern Rail to introduce new rolling stock which does nothing to solve overcrowding and surely consideration should have been given to either introduce more frequent or longer trains to alleviate such overcrowding. Also many more railway lines around West Yorkshire really should be electrified.

Last edited by Val Verde; January 12th, 2020 at 01:45 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2020, 11:45 PM   #5546
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Northern looking likely to be renationalised this week. Given there’s not going to be any instantaneous improvements, my most important question is - what will it be rebranded to?

There’s something about the re-use of the old train brands like LNER and GWR that inspires a bit of national pride (and I’m normally very against any form of patriotism. What are some northern-centric brands that could be reused?
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Old January 27th, 2020, 12:12 AM   #5547
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'Norail'

It can either mean No(rthern) rail or on bad days it can be a warning that their is No(railway service).
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Old January 27th, 2020, 12:40 AM   #5548
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I think they were intending to split the franchise into two and call them North Western and North Eastern, not sure if that is still the plan though.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 01:00 AM   #5549
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The smallest franchises are usually the ones that work best, however, that's possibly because they tend to only run a few lines on reasonably self-contained routes.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 03:25 PM   #5550
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Personally I'd want the West Yorks railway back in the 'Metro' name and full control handed over to WYCA/local authorities.

Split the Northern areas into regional areas like that with co-operation agreements when services cross-areas (like Leeds to Man Van via Bradford & Halifax). One for South Yorks, one for North & East Yorks, Newcastle/Northumbria part of T&W Metro etc.

Any intercity/inter-urban route can then be XC, LNER, TPE instead.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 04:07 PM   #5551
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I agree. Merseyrail works well for Merseyside; let's repeat that model across every city region.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 06:58 PM   #5552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttebroc View Post
There’s something about the re-use of the old train brands like LNER and GWR that inspires a bit of national pride (and I’m normally very against any form of patriotism. What are some northern-centric brands that could be reused?
"Regional Railways"

LNER and GWR seem to be trying to hark back to "the good old days" (as usual this country is obsessed with looking backwards).

Back in the days of the "big four" I guess what's now Northern would've been run by LNER and LMS.
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Old January 28th, 2020, 09:22 PM   #5553
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Consultation launched for improvements at Fink Hill, Horsforth.

Essentially just formalising the 2 lane approach to the roundabout (that naturally appears anyway), more defined junction and installing some pedestrian crossings.

Cycling provision is poor and there will be 36 trees lost ( 3x as many planted elsewhere).

Whilst they appear to be learning with each consultation I wouldn’t be surprised to see this one be rejected by the public.

https://finkhill.commonplace.is/sche...scheme/details

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Old January 29th, 2020, 06:46 PM   #5554
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There's no solution to anything anymore, among certain groups of people; everything contradicts everything else. Don't want HS2, which has environmental benefits (potentially fewer cars), due to environmental reasons (chop down trees). Don't want junction improvements due to environmental concerns (chopping down trees), despite scheme that helps cyclists and encourages other to take up cycling. Everything has just become one big stalemate. All getting very boring.
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Old January 29th, 2020, 07:15 PM   #5555
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As it turns out, the new name for Northern will be... ...Northern, presumably they're sticking with the same brand and just finishing off the existing refurbishments to the trains rather than having to change it all again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...ating_company)
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Old January 29th, 2020, 08:50 PM   #5556
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Wonder if they'll go to the trouble to using a vinyl covering to cover up the 'by Arriva' bit on the trains lol.

I can sympathise in a (very, very, very) small amount with Arriva by the fact that the Gov/DfT/Network Rail haven't invested properly in the infrastructure which means that improvements that were supposed to have happened, haven't yet (& those improvements which were then tied into targets for Northern & Arriva to achieve which they then subsequently couldn't).

Things not Arriva's/Northern's fault: Platform 0 at Leeds - why is this not going to be finished until Dec 2021? Why wasn't it started a few years ago? & why is it taking so long to complete?

The Ordsall Chord in Manchester worked well until the follow-on improvements in the Castlefield Corridor (4-tracking & new signals) didn't get done so more services have to use the same track leading to even more bottlenecks than before.

Plus CAF being absolutely useless at introducing new trains (but they're not alone seeing as Stadtler, Bombardier, Hitachi and Siemens new trains have all had issues too) and having them delivered late hasn't helped.

By Arriva & Northern themselves have not helped a great deal either. Should have been honest about the problems and tried to tackle them rather than just stick their head in the sand & ignore it.

An example for me is this: as drivers & guards have to go off & do classroom & real world training on the new trains (can't always fit it on days off) then why couldn't they cancel more off-peak daytime trains and ensure all peak services were max carriages that could be used on the lines & ensuring drivers/guards available for peak services. That would have helped (if it was indeed possible in the first place).
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Old January 29th, 2020, 09:36 PM   #5557
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Quote:
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There's no solution to anything anymore, among certain groups of people; everything contradicts everything else. Don't want HS2, which has environmental benefits (potentially fewer cars), due to environmental reasons (chop down trees). Don't want junction improvements due to environmental concerns (chopping down trees), despite scheme that helps cyclists and encourages other to take up cycling. Everything has just become one big stalemate. All getting very boring.
I think the council has been burned badly by the failed t-bus scheme and now won’t do anything without public consent. The problem is the general public can’t be trusted to make a rational decision.

Lawnswood roundabout junction improvements appears to have been scuppered by the nimbys.
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Old January 30th, 2020, 12:54 AM   #5558
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Wonder if they'll go to the trouble to using a vinyl covering to cover up the 'by Arriva' bit on the trains lol.
The same group currently running LNER are going to be running it, so they'll probably do what they did for those trains, just go straight over the logo as a whole. Not sure whether they're changing logos or anything though given they would need to go to the trouble of replacing the blue parts on all of the trains to get rid too.

I can maybe see this being a slightly ugly fix though as the white on the rest will have already aged vs a new sticker, or in a few years when it becomes obvious they've pasted directly over the old one and there's noticeable colour wear.
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Old January 30th, 2020, 01:57 AM   #5559
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This will mean that Leeds now has more nationalised services than any other part of the country with both LNER and Northern in public hands
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Old January 30th, 2020, 01:54 PM   #5560
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Not sure it's time to start a new thread yet but... trams are back on the agenda: https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....d-time-1379525
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