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Old January 15th, 2020, 01:31 AM   #88361
chivers67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_Brixton View Post
"Tomorrow nights match against Middlesbrough is surely not worth the same to Spurs"

But how many 3rd round FA Cup replays - live on tv - have we played in the last decade ...

You must be right that home domestic Cup games (say, five?) produce less income, but in contrast do those midweek CL games produce exceptional Premium income ...
Still over 49,000 tonight. I'm not sure how much allocation 'Boro had tonght, hard to tell. That's still a good attendance for a midweek Cup game vs a Championship team. Still there was 38,000 odd at Wembley vs Newport in 2018!
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Old January 15th, 2020, 01:47 AM   #88362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil_BeDemented View Post
They've not had to build a stadium, I think I read their contribution to police on match days is lower (the tax payer picks up the shortfall) the amount they pay in upkeep/day to day running is lower than the others too again maintenance is largely picked up by the local council. There's so many things not right with that crooked arrangement that a decent half competent investigative journalist would see several people doing jail time IMHO.
I don't see in which way the stadium ownership or the off-load of stewarding costs have any influence on the revenue of a football club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAYiddo View Post
Didn't they uncover some more scaffold over the last 12 months to increase capacity?
Woolwich added a nineth row of seating to their corporate tier. That should actually lift revenue more than a couple of thousand GA seats in Stratford.

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Originally Posted by chivers67 View Post
I'm not sure how much allocation 'Boro had tonght, hard to tell.
3'700, apparently. (@footy90com)

Last edited by flierfy; January 15th, 2020 at 02:01 AM.
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Old January 15th, 2020, 12:02 PM   #88363
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Was curious about the documentary mentioned a while back, so I did some Googling and found this. Broadcast date says March but that's for Discovery Europe. It'll be 19th Feb on Discovery UK I think...

Quote:
Richard Hammond's BIG!
Ep 6: Super Stadium

Richard explores the huge Tottenham Hotspur Football Stadium in London. He explores a pitch that splits and rolls away and takes a terrifying walk on the stadium roof!
https://discoveryexports.pawa.tv/dis...CENENG-UTC.xml

https://www.discoveryuk.com/series/r...-hammonds-big/
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Old January 15th, 2020, 03:32 PM   #88364
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Still over 49,000 tonight. I'm not sure how much allocation 'Boro had tonght, hard to tell. That's still a good attendance for a midweek Cup game vs a Championship team. Still there was 38,000 odd at Wembley vs Newport in 2018!
Yes, it is a very good attendance. Especially as the match was on BBC1. Short of enforcing purchase of tickets by season tickets holders like Man Utd do it is as good as could possibly be expected.

The point was that you cannot calculate a club's annual gate income by looking at Premier League prices and multiplying by the total number of fixtures. Especially when corporate/premium tickets get some cup matches thrown in and the club rightly cuts prices for matches such as last night's.

Speculation is both inevitable and interesting. However, to truly get a good estimate you need to be able to dig further into the figures than has been done so far. I welcome anyone who does so.

Looking at that report Arsenal took £134m in matchday revenue in 2016. Is that in reach? Must surely include catering so I think it is. Man Utd's matchday revenue also peaked in 2016 at £137m. Seems a lot of clubs had a peak of matchday that year, I wonder why?
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Old January 15th, 2020, 03:37 PM   #88365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH View Post
Was curious about the documentary mentioned a while back, so I did some Googling and found this. Broadcast date says March but that's for Discovery Europe. It'll 19th Feb on Discovery UK I think...



https://discoveryexports.pawa.tv/dis...CENENG-UTC.xml

https://www.discoveryuk.com/series/r...-hammonds-big/
Nice work!
Can't wait for this.
Oh, that first link just leads to some code unfortunately
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Old January 15th, 2020, 03:41 PM   #88366
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Originally Posted by NeilCarter View Post
Oh, that first link just leads to some code unfortunately
I know it does, that's the only reference I can find to the stadium episode. It's an XML file containing a list of all the upcoming episodes. Sleuthing.
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Old January 16th, 2020, 08:38 AM   #88367
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I'll try and make my point one more time and then I'll shut up, because my point seems to be falling on deaf ears and I'm even boring myself now.

NET PROFIT is the money that is left over after a business has paid all of its running costs. It's the money the business has to play with - to retain in the bank or pay out as share dividends or invest or whatever it decides to do with it.

If (big IF) the club is generating £168m REVENUE per season from matchday sales (tickets + hospitality + sponsorship) and if (big IF) you assume 28 games per season to get to a figure of £6m per game - that figure is REVENUE. It is literally impossible that it can be generating £6m NET PROFIT per game from £6M REVENUE per game. It costs money to run a football club. It costs money to stage a football match. The tax man will want his slice too.

There's a really great article here which explains my point better than I am able to : https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/...nning-15860716

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Old January 16th, 2020, 02:19 PM   #88368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chivers67 View Post
Still over 49,000 tonight. I'm not sure how much allocation 'Boro had tonght, hard to tell. That's still a good attendance for a midweek Cup game vs a Championship team. Still there was 38,000 odd at Wembley vs Newport in 2018!
3,900 was the 'boro allocation.
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Old January 16th, 2020, 03:04 PM   #88369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caspurs View Post
Hi all, been a while. Happy new year to all.
I'm currently observing a lively debate on another Spurs blog (NOT Harry Hatespur) questioning how club revenue is calculated, so can someone here please enlighten me as to how it IS actually calculated.
Protagonist A) is claiming that revenue calculations include sales made on credit as revenue for goods or services delivered to the customer i.e. Accrual accounting.
Protagonist B) is saying that revenue figures do not include monies that have not yet been paid, so clubs only count sales as revenue when payment is received i.e. cash accounting.
Can someone please clarify which system is used to calculate revenue by clubs, as this isn't my area, and I know and trust what I read on this ere site.
Many thanks.
Yes! It's my time to shine boys!

Spurs, like many other clubs report under IFRS. One of the underlying concepts is the accrual method of accounting, i.e. in basic terms matching revenue/cost with when things actually happen.

For example, if you pay a season ticket subscription upfront for £1,000 and that gives you a right to attend 20 games, then the club cannot recognise that revenue until the games have been held. As each game is held, the club will recognise £50 of revenue (i.e. 1/20th). You will notice in the accounts that there is a large "deferred revenue" balance, this is season ticket money received up front, but where the games have not yet been held.

All clubs, whether they report under IFRS or FRS 102 (the UK GAAP version of IFRS), will have to adopt this same principal.

Typically with a football club, you would expect cash to be received in advance of services being rendered. e.g. sponsorship paid up-front, season tickets paid up-front.

So, option A is the correct one.

Now we can talk about how to account for a footballer, because that's really interesting and confuses a lot of people!

On acquisition of a footballer, they are recognised as an intangible asset. The cost is measured as the transfer fee paid, plus fees. This asset is then amortised (same concept as depreciation) to the income statement over the initial contract of the player. So, if we buy a player for £10m with a 5 year contract, they are initially recognised as a £10m intangible asset and then amortised by £2m a year to the income statement. After 5 years, that player is no longer recognised on the balance sheet. This means you can have odd scenarios where players like Kane are technically valued at nil on our balance sheet. Odd isn't it!

This also means that you can reach other interesting accounting results. Let's say that we sell Dele for £50m, as he is currently on our books as nil value, we make £50m profit on sale. We then buy Jovic and Felix for £150m. As, per above, they are recognised on the balance sheet initially, we have no income statement impact. So at that point in time, we have a £50m profit and everyone becomes very excited that we are highly profitable and should be buying more players...however, if you considered the cash flow statement, then you would see a cash outflow of £100m.

Tl;Dr? clubs will account under the accruals method, meaning answer A is the correct one.
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Old January 17th, 2020, 10:29 PM   #88370
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Anyone know what happens with our five year partnership with Saracens for them to play a match at our stadium every year now that their relegation is all but confirmed? Assume match this March will go ahead. But that is probably going to be the only one until they get promoted again? Shame.
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Old January 19th, 2020, 11:10 AM   #88371
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This might be a good point to mention the most important thing, for me, about matchday revenues in the new stadium - it knocks every other event-type revenue into a cocked hat.

So, for example, 5 seasons of one regular rugby fixture is, imo, worth less that a single home league cup match. Does anyone think an NFL match is worth much more than £1 mill to the club?

It suggests strongly to me a reversal of policy under Poch (no interest in domestic cups) and, given a larger squad will be required, more investment in high potential young players.

In fact, the argument also works the other way around; the stadium (with its higher matchday income) allows the club to increase investment in developing talent, and to better pursue domestic cups.

A return to 60+ matches a season?
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Old January 19th, 2020, 12:55 PM   #88372
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Originally Posted by sonicyouth View Post
Anyone know what happens with our five year partnership with Saracens for them to play a match at our stadium every year now that their relegation is all but confirmed? Assume match this March will go ahead. But that is probably going to be the only one until they get promoted again? Shame.
As I've proved many times in the past, I'm no expert on rugby. But I assume this will likely only be a problem for one year. Am I right in thinking it'd be a huge surprise if they didn't return for 2021/22?

Whether we get compensation or they decide to hold some kind of game anyway, I've no idea. I'm guessing that's a long way down their list of worries right now.

TBH, it sounds like they deserve their punishment, so maybe it's a good thing to have a one year break whilst they're in purgatory. I mean this, from last year's announcement, makes you wince now...

Quote:
"it's a really special opportunity for us to partner with our fellow north Londoners, with whom we share so many of our core values," Saracens chairman Nigel Wray said.
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Old January 19th, 2020, 01:06 PM   #88373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevieed View Post
Now we can talk about how to account for a footballer, because that's really interesting and confuses a lot of people!

On acquisition of a footballer, they are recognised as an intangible asset. The cost is measured as the transfer fee paid, plus fees. This asset is then amortised (same concept as depreciation) to the income statement over the initial contract of the player. So, if we buy a player for £10m with a 5 year contract, they are initially recognised as a £10m intangible asset and then amortised by £2m a year to the income statement. After 5 years, that player is no longer recognised on the balance sheet. This means you can have odd scenarios where players like Kane are technically valued at nil on our balance sheet. Odd isn't it!

This also means that you can reach other interesting accounting results. Let's say that we sell Dele for £50m, as he is currently on our books as nil value, we make £50m profit on sale. We then buy Jovic and Felix for £150m. As, per above, they are recognised on the balance sheet initially, we have no income statement impact. So at that point in time, we have a £50m profit and everyone becomes very excited that we are highly profitable and should be buying more players...however, if you considered the cash flow statement, then you would see a cash outflow of £100m.

Tl;Dr? clubs will account under the accruals method, meaning answer A is the correct one.
Amortisation is weird and confusing. Am I right in thinking that if you buy a player for £40 million on a four year contract and sell him for £40 million after four years that would count as a £40 million profit? Clearly this scenario wouldn't happen in reality due to the contract situation, but I think that's how it would be accounted.

All these deferred payments and costs make assessing the true cost of the stadium and its effect on our finances impossible.
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Old January 19th, 2020, 07:45 PM   #88374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH View Post
Was curious about the documentary mentioned a while back, so I did some Googling and found this. Broadcast date says March but that's for Discovery Europe. It'll be 19th Feb on Discovery UK I think...



https://discoveryexports.pawa.tv/dis...CENENG-UTC.xml

https://www.discoveryuk.com/series/r...-hammonds-big/
I watched the first episode last night and there’s the odd glimpse of the new stadium in the program’s opening credits.
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Old January 19th, 2020, 07:52 PM   #88375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jts1882 View Post
Amortisation is weird and confusing. Am I right in thinking that if you buy a player for £40 million on a four year contract and sell him for £40 million after four years that would count as a £40 million profit? Clearly this scenario wouldn't happen in reality due to the contract situation, but I think that's how it would be accounted.

All these deferred payments and costs make assessing the true cost of the stadium and its effect on our finances impossible.
It would be £40m profit in the year sold, if sold after 4 years. But profit would have been offset by £10m amortisation in each of the previous 4 years, so cumulative profit over time would be 4x(-10) + 40 = 0
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Old January 19th, 2020, 08:16 PM   #88376
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Originally Posted by Rheostar View Post
I watched the first episode last night and there’s the odd glimpse of the new stadium in the program’s opening credits.

There is a photo of Richard Hammond on the pitch at the new stadium in destination Tottenham book which iirc makes mention of a documentary.
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Old January 19th, 2020, 10:06 PM   #88377
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Originally Posted by RobH View Post
As I've proved many times in the past, I'm no expert on rugby. But I assume this will likely only be a problem for one year. Am I right in thinking it'd be a huge surprise if they didn't return for 2021/22?

Whether we get compensation or they decide to hold some kind of game anyway, I've no idea. I'm guessing that's a long way down their list of worries right now.

TBH, it sounds like they deserve their punishment, so maybe it's a good thing to have a one year break whilst they're in purgatory. I mean this, from last year's announcement, makes you wince now...
I have read that although there is no salary cap in the Championship (2nd tier) there is a requirement on any promoted team to demonstrate that they have complied with the cap for 2 years before promotion. If (and it is "if") this is the case, then they would not be promoted before 21/22 for 22/23
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Old January 20th, 2020, 06:51 PM   #88378
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Yes Hammond is on page 203

Snippets from the book
The intruder that climbed the tower crane Bright his own sandwiches
Basement columns are wrapped in bombproof armour casing. Pg 71
Confirmation that Spurs owned Tower Cranes were sold for a profit pg86



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Old January 20th, 2020, 07:01 PM   #88379
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Old January 21st, 2020, 04:46 PM   #88380
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Originally Posted by sonicyouth View Post
Anyone know what happens with our five year partnership with Saracens for them to play a match at our stadium every year now that their relegation is all but confirmed? Assume match this March will go ahead. But that is probably going to be the only one until they get promoted again? Shame.
I have been privy to some info about this, however, it clashes with the info shared in this article

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rug...-a4340331.html
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