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Old March 10th, 2019, 06:46 PM   #14821
TheFamousGoose
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On the subject of the reformation of Islam is is worth noting that this has already happened. In that the fact that it had happened is the problem. Islam under the Ottomans, like the Catholic Chuch of the medieval period, had taken on a rather rococco character. The Caliphate was reasonably tolerant of other faiths, did not oppress greatly its Shi'ite minority and the dominant form of Islam was a moderate variety that, like liberal Christians today, took an attitude that the scriptures were a guide that could be interpreted by modern Muslims without thinking that every line of the Qur'an and the Hadith were the literal word of God and had to be believed and enforced verbatim. On political matters, the influence of clerics in the government and judicial system slowly weakend throughout the C19th.

However as the entered the modern period, far away from the sophisticated, urban and urbane centres of Islam, in Constantinople, Baghdad or Najar, out in the tribal deserts of Arabia, a reformation was brewing. Like the early Protestants, Abd al-Wahhab, wished to strip away all the ways in which his religion and civilisation had been complemented by new ideas and outside influences in the centuries since it had been founded centuries before. Like the Protestants, the Wahabis were about getting back to basics, back the the scriptures and their literal interpretation. That includes of course the most cruel and condemnatory passages in the Qu'ran. Similarly Protestants were very keen to have a focus back on the Old Testament, the Catholic Church having somewhat faded out its influence seeing as Jesus Christ had stated quite plainly in the New that His was a 'New Covenant' to replace the vengeful message found in the older books of the Bible. It shouldn't be a surprise that the most intolerant sorts of Protestant Christians such as the late Ian Paisley and any number of American fundamentalists are very keen on the Old Testament with its stories of God smiting entire races of unbelievers and His encouragement to the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman and child of their defeated enemies. Daesh would heartily agree.

To think of todays post-Wahabi, fundamenalist Islam, it reminds me than anything else of the Protestant Puritans of the period immediately following the Reformation, in every thing from their plain black clothes and refusal to shave to their abstemious personal habits, intolerance and enthusiasm for righteous armed struggle.

As the US and its junior partner Britain has supported continually the principal sponsor of this new, uncouth and dangerous reformed form of Islam, Saudi Arabia as well as funded and armed its adherents in order to undermine secular, anti-colonial governments in the Middle East, from Egypt in the 1950s and 1960s, through Afganistan in the 80s, and Libya and Syria more recently, the spread of the Islamic reformation had become unstoppable, with murderous consequences from Manchester to Nice.

So to those who are calling for a reformation of Islam, I point out that we aleady have one and I don't think you'd like it.

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Old March 10th, 2019, 06:51 PM   #14822
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Anyone who at this point is still talking about 'conspiracies' when, not only it is obvious that what being referred to are the results of prejudice and the structure of political power in this country but that it is has been pointed out countless times, is being wilfully obtuse.

But then again, anyone who thinks that the 'hard left' believes in a (Jeez, am I going to have to write these words? I'll stick a 'sic' on the end...) 'International Jewish Conspiracy' (sic) has already gone to a strange place.

And it is very easy to discredit people raising issues with which one is uncomfortable by accusing the other person of peddling conspiracy theories. Fortunately, I simply cannot imagine anyone on this forum ever doing that
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Old March 10th, 2019, 08:18 PM   #14823
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And it is very easy to discredit people raising issues with which one is uncomfortable by accusing the other person of peddling conspiracy theories. Fortunately, I simply cannot imagine anyone on this forum ever doing that

You prefer to go for gas lighting attacks and making spurious claims which you cannot supports when asked to. When you stop using conspiracy theorists language then I'm sure your point will be far easier to see.
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Old March 11th, 2019, 01:46 AM   #14824
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What has been deliberately omitted in this is the left's role in the 1979 Iranian revolution when the Shah of Persia was deposed by the ayatollahs thus sending seismic shockwaves through the Islamic world. Of course the left was overcome by the Islamists in the revolution after doing their dirty work but since then has remained in complete denial about their human rights abuses. The role of Iran in undermining democracy in the middle east is continually ignored by the left wing because of their fervent anti western and anti imperialist stance. Of course none of them seek to go and live in Iran, why you may ask? Because the simple answer is that it's better here; it's convenient to criticise Western imperialism whilst enjoying the rights and freedoms to openly criticise authority. Nobody in their right minds not even Corbyn would consider moving to Tehran.

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Old March 11th, 2019, 02:23 AM   #14825
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Surely the role of Iran is undermining democracy in the Middle East is ignored by the left, as it would by anyone else, as it had no such role. The country is surrounded by dicatatorships, most of which are hostile to it. In fact the government in Iran, although bad in various ways (which contary to you what are alleging is acknowledged by just about everyone), is one of less nasty ones its neighbourhood.

Any idea that because Iranian socialists were involved in the 1979 revoluation before they were outmanoeuvered by the Islamists, that means that western leftists support it today is just plain silly. It doesn't make any sense. As is the idea that it is the left's fault that the Islamists beat the left in during the revolution. Are you saying that is a bad thing that Iranians of various political stripes had the temerity of kicking out their then dictator in the first place?

God knows what point you are then going on to make by pointing out that the people that you incorrectly imagine support the Iranian government haven't moved to Tehran.

The United States wishes to destroy Iran for one single reason - Iran has an independent foreign policy in a region that the US wishes to dominate for strategic reasons and controls its own oil reserves. That is all.
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Old March 11th, 2019, 12:28 PM   #14826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFamousGoose View Post
On the subject of the reformation of Islam is is worth noting that this has already happened. In that the fact that it had happened is the problem. Islam under the Ottomans, like the Catholic Chuch of the medieval period, had taken on a rather rococco character. The Caliphate was reasonably tolerant of other faiths, did not oppress greatly its Shi'ite minority and the dominant form of Islam was a moderate variety that, like liberal Christians today, took an attitude that the scriptures were a guide that could be interpreted by modern Muslims without thinking that every line of the Qur'an and the Hadith were the literal word of God and had to be believed and enforced verbatim. On political matters, the influence of clerics in the government and judicial system slowly weakend throughout the C19th.

However as the entered the modern period, far away from the sophisticated, urban and urbane centres of Islam, in Constantinople, Baghdad or Najar, out in the tribal deserts of Arabia, a reformation was brewing. Like the early Protestants, Abd al-Wahhab, wished to strip away all the ways in which his religion and civilisation had been complemented by new ideas and outside influences in the centuries since it had been founded centuries before. Like the Protestants, the Wahabis were about getting back to basics, back the the scriptures and their literal interpretation. That includes of course the most cruel and condemnatory passages in the Qu'ran.
Add to that the theories and urgings of the Egyptian, Said Qutb, who saw the West as a cesspit of degeneration, and you have the perfect cocktail for jihad and terrorism.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 12:44 PM   #14827
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You prefer to go for gas lighting attacks and making spurious claims which you cannot supports when asked to. When you stop using conspiracy theorists language then I'm sure your point will be far easier to see.

We're you even being addressed? No. God alone knows why you felt the need to respond.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 09:05 PM   #14828
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Romanian gang stole form tourists and young women on a night out. What type of people are we allowing into to our country.

Crybaby robber tries to shift blame onto Smithdown Road's Romanian community
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...blame-15969717
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Old March 15th, 2019, 09:59 PM   #14829
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Romanian gang stole form tourists and young women on a night out. What type of people are we allowing into to our country.

Crybaby robber tries to shift blame onto Smithdown Road's Romanian community
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...blame-15969717
While this man is clearly despicable, it's also pretty despicable to use a story like this to peddle your anti-immigrant propaganda especially on a day like this, when we see what can happen, when you create an intolerant and hateful public discourse about the 'other'.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 10:20 PM   #14830
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While this man is clearly despicable, it's also pretty despicable to use a story like this to peddle your anti-immigrant propaganda especially on a day like this, when we see what can happen, when you create an intolerant and hateful public discourse about the 'other'.
its amazing the difference in the way the general public reacts .
after the Paris massacre sympathy posts were much greater
every other person was changing their profile pic to a French flag.
whats different here
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Last edited by the pool08; March 15th, 2019 at 11:43 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:37 PM   #14831
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especially on a day like this, when we see what can happen, when you create an intolerant and hateful public discourse about the 'other'.
What's that got to do with Romanians robbing people in Liverpool?
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:43 PM   #14832
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We're you even being addressed? No. God alone knows why you felt the need to respond.

It must be horrible to have people jump to the defence of people you attack.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:45 PM   #14833
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What's that got to do with Romanians robbing people in Liverpool?
i think he may be referring to this line
"What type of people are we allowing into to our country".
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:52 PM   #14834
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i think he may be referring to this line
"What type of people are we allowing into to our country".
I'm the bad guy for daring to mention it?. Don't blame me the scumbags robbing innocent people are the bad guys.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 11:59 PM   #14835
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It must be horrible to have people jump to the defence of people you attack.

'Attack' ? Get over yourself.

You don't rise to the level if horribleness. 'Tedious' is a better word for the way you constantly pick fights with me and half the rest of the forum for no reason whatsoever.
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Old March 16th, 2019, 12:01 AM   #14836
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I'm the bad guy for daring to mention it?. Don't blame me the scumbags robbing innocent people are the bad guys.
thats brave, .i,m out,
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Old March 16th, 2019, 12:08 AM   #14837
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thats brave, .i,m out,
Braver than you will ever be.
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Old March 16th, 2019, 02:16 PM   #14838
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http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...-pole-15980796

Them Poles are at it now, an' all..

Echo truly needs to die.
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Old March 16th, 2019, 05:18 PM   #14839
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you create an intolerant and hateful public discourse about the 'other'.
I'm not sure the victims and their family give a crap about "Tolerance". He didn't have any tolerance for his victims families.

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Old March 16th, 2019, 05:28 PM   #14840
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I'm not sure the victims and their family give a crap about "Tolerance". He didn't have any tolerance for his victims families.

Likely they are far better people than him and so do understand tolerance. It is the interlorant who are the problem.
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