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Old December 8th, 2019, 01:18 PM   #13001
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In China there is a different approach to this - they usually build new stations a fair distance from the city center and then connect them with a subway. It results in superb average speeds for the HSR lines, but overall average speed city center to city center probably not that different from France where stations tend to be much closer to the real center and HS services share the last kilometers with regular rail.
The Chinese approach is useful when the service does not terminate in the city, but continues to different cities. This way, the long distance trips are not slowed down by passage through central cities. Whereas in the terminus, forcing passengers to transfer to subway is extra inconvenience.

How well is Shenyang-Qinhuangdao HSR in Beijing connected with the other HSR-s in Beijing?

I mean, since Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR is to open soon, how are the 4 HSR-s into Beijing routed through and around suburbs of Beijing, and which suburban stations do they stop in?

The 4 HSR directions are:
  1. Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot
  2. Beijing-Qinhuangdao-Shenyang
  3. Beijing-Tianjin-Shanghai
  4. Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou

Where in Beijing would a direct train Zhangjiakou-Shenyang stop and pick up passengers? Where would Zhangjiakou-Shanghai stop? Zhangjiakou-Guangzhou?
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Old December 8th, 2019, 04:24 PM   #13002
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High-speed rail to link prefectural level cities
China Daily Excerpt
Dec 7, 2019

The construction of intercity high-speed rail systems, which are expected over time to cover all prefecture-level cities, is picking up steam in quite a few provinces across China, and experts said the system will help boost rural-urban integration.

According to local railway authorities, the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region and Henan, Guangdong, Jiangsu, Liaoning, Shandong and Shaanxi provinces are among the provincial regions aiming to build intercity high-speed rail systems by 2020.

Fujian and Anhui are the only two provinces that currently have a high-speed rail system connecting all of its cities. Prefecture-level cities are ranked above counties.

Zhao Jian, an economics professor specializing in rail transportation at Beijing Jiaotong University, said that the intercity construction plans are focused on the country's central and eastern regions, which are densely populated urban areas. The intent is for less developed areas in these regions to be better connected with the regional economic centers.

The intercity railway system will greatly save travel time, boost the flow of labor and information and inject new impetus to the vast countryside. It will further coordinate the development of cities and villages and narrow their gaps in many areas, he added.

More : https://www.chinadailyhk.com/article...?newsId=114947
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Old December 8th, 2019, 04:33 PM   #13003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In China there is a different approach to this - they usually build new stations a fair distance from the city center and then connect them with a subway. It results in superb average speeds for the HSR lines, but overall average speed city center to city center probably not that different from France where stations tend to be much closer to the real center and HS services share the last kilometers with regular rail.
well we have to seperate the passby cities and main population center cities. even in france, a lot of smaller cities have greenfield TGV stations. for main bigger cities in china, Except a few cities have too ambitious new development plans and plan HSR stations too far, such as guangzhou, kunming, chonngqing, most cities are not bad. bejing, shanghai, hangzhou, zhengzhou, guiyang, nanchang, fuzhou, xiamen, ningbo, qingdao, shenyang, harbin, shijiazhuang, whuhan, lanzhou, tianjin, hefei, suzhou etc all have city center stations sharing both legacy and hsr trains. they are planing to move legacy trains to suburban stations and convert city center staions for hsr and city rail only. guangzhou, shanghai, beijing already started. guangzhou and guangzhou east will move all the legacy trains to a new station.
china didnt have much legacy railway. the railways and station ficilities were not big. there are not enough capacity for commuter trains. but they started on this since 10 years. after most HSR lines are almost built and planned. the next step is to build massive city and regional railways. some will use exiting railways.
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Old December 8th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #13004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The Chinese approach is useful when the service does not terminate in the city, but continues to different cities. This way, the long distance trips are not slowed down by passage through central cities. Whereas in the terminus, forcing passengers to transfer to subway is extra inconvenience.

How well is Shenyang-Qinhuangdao HSR in Beijing connected with the other HSR-s in Beijing?

I mean, since Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot HSR is to open soon, how are the 4 HSR-s into Beijing routed through and around suburbs of Beijing, and which suburban stations do they stop in?

The 4 HSR directions are:
  1. Beijing-Zhangjiakou-Hohhot
  2. Beijing-Qinhuangdao-Shenyang
  3. Beijing-Tianjin-Shanghai
  4. Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou

Where in Beijing would a direct train Zhangjiakou-Shenyang stop and pick up passengers? Where would Zhangjiakou-Shanghai stop? Zhangjiakou-Guangzhou?
You have an assumption which is a big mistake. You assume most of passengers from HSR will go to city center, which is not true. A lot of passengers will go back to their home or business place where is not in city center. City center usually is already super crowed. If all sorts of long distance transportation end up in city center, it makes traffic even unbearable worse, especially like many over populated Chinese cities. The government purposely put rail stations in suburban, one goal is not put more burden on already over-populated city center, also draw population and business from current city center to new area, and it is much cheap and help city to develop more healthy. In most cases it is very successful.

Chinese governments usually have longer plan and goal, which is different from western government. SO don't judge from western world's standard.
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Old December 8th, 2019, 08:12 PM   #13005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Huo View Post
You have an assumption which is a big mistake. You assume most of passengers from HSR will go to city center, which is not true. A lot of passengers will go back to their home or business place where is not in city center. City center usually is already super crowed. If all sorts of long distance transportation end up in city center, it makes traffic even unbearable worse, especially like many over populated Chinese cities. The government purposely put rail stations in suburban, one goal is not put more burden on already over-populated city center, also draw population and business from current city center to new area, and it is much cheap and help city to develop more healthy. In most cases it is very successful.
The reason to go to the city center is not because majority of passengers want end up there, but because it's the best compromise for those who don't. In most cities (there are exceptions like Mumbai) historical center is also approximately in the geographical center of the city allowing the shortest travel time to all suburbs/outlaying areas.

We don't judge you actually, but don't also assume we here don't know what we are doing.
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Old December 8th, 2019, 11:00 PM   #13006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
The reason to go to the city center is not because majority of passengers want end up there, but because it's the best compromise for those who don't. In most cities (there are exceptions like Mumbai) historical center is also approximately in the geographical center of the city allowing the shortest travel time to all suburbs/outlaying areas.

We don't judge you actually, but don't also assume we here don't know what we are doing.
I agree with you. City center is closer the business center. It has less distance to all directions. Suburban station can be only located in one corn. It will have much longer distance to most areas.those add more traffic. If you have the airport style station, all the passengers will have to use other transportation systems to get the destinations. Trains may slow down in the city center but still take less time than metro. If the station is in city center, a good percentage of passengers will have much less travel distance in the city.

Chinese cities already realized the mistakes. Guangzhou for example will build a new station for legacy trains and convert guangzhou and guangzhou east for HSR only. Kunming will also use west station for chongqing and kunming HSR terminal instead of the south station.
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Old December 8th, 2019, 11:43 PM   #13007
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
High-speed rail to link prefectural level cities
China Daily Excerpt
Dec 7, 2019

The construction of intercity high-speed rail systems, which are expected over time to cover all prefecture-level cities, is picking up steam in quite a few provinces across China, and experts said the system will help boost rural-urban integration.
How does it boost rural-urban integration if what it connects is cities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
According to local railway authorities, the Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region and Henan, Guangdong, Jiangsu, Liaoning, Shandong and Shaanxi provinces are among the provincial regions aiming to build intercity high-speed rail systems by 2020.

Fujian and Anhui are the only two provinces that currently have a high-speed rail system connecting all of its cities. Prefecture-level cities are ranked above counties.
All cities, or only all prefecture-level cities? Anhui has 8 county level cities, and Fujian 13.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Zhao Jian, an economics professor specializing in rail transportation at Beijing Jiaotong University, said that the intercity construction plans are focused on the country's central and eastern regions, which are densely populated urban areas. The intent is for less developed areas in these regions to be better connected with the regional economic centers.

The intercity railway system will greatly save travel time, boost the flow of labor and information and inject new impetus to the vast countryside. It will further coordinate the development of cities and villages and narrow their gaps in many areas, he added.

More : https://www.chinadailyhk.com/article...?newsId=114947
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Old December 9th, 2019, 12:16 AM   #13008
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As new HSR line opening rush has now started can anyone confirm how many km of new lines are opening by the end of December? I've read that it's 13 sections but no mention of distance.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 02:37 AM   #13009
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if including the three already opened early this year, the total should be about 4250 kms. The media is talking there will be 35k kms railways with 200km/h and higher operating speed in the end of 2019.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 03:21 AM   #13010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
The reason to go to the city center is not because majority of passengers want end up there, but because it's the best compromise for those who don't. In most cities (there are exceptions like Mumbai) historical center is also approximately in the geographical center of the city allowing the shortest travel time to all suburbs/outlaying areas.

We don't judge you actually, but don't also assume we here don't know what we are doing.
Chinese cities are not like Mumbai. Chinese cities usually plan ahead the transportation systems when build new HSR station. For example, Nanjing South Railway Station has more metro lines than its city center Xinjiekou, although Xinjiekou has more metro traffic. And Chinese mega cities want to de-congest theirs old city centers. The new HSR stations quickly become new city centers like Nanjing South Station. And residents can choose convenient stations for their travel, like residents in south Nanjing prefer Nanjing South Station, and residents in north Nanjing prefer old Nanjing railway station. Both stations have HSR trains to Shanghai, both Shanghai Station and Hongqiao Station.

Chinese HSR stations work well for China, it doesn't need to be like other nations, period.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 03:25 AM   #13011
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Weifang-Laixi HSR starts to lay tracks. It plans to open by end of 2020.

https://m.us.sina.com/gb/china/thepa...t0032461.shtml





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Old December 9th, 2019, 07:49 AM   #13012
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Not exactly guys...

Thing is, Huo is right in that China's administrative cities are vast spatially (like tiny euro nations) and to get the system up and running in the speed it has, they need to avoid huge headaches of the city center, small land plots (compare India still trying to acquire land & angry NIMBY residents), "reach your arm to touch neighbor cross the street" crushing density, under and above ground utility hell and safety buffer hell. More than healthy ridership numbers (@2.2 bln/yr) vindicate their strategy.

Japan did the same by running lines to terminate at Ueno station (N) and Shinagawa (S) for decades before finally building out to go on to Tokyo station.

This isnt a "mistake" but a design compromise, and to alleviate pressure for expansion of Tokyo station due to lack of land. In China they go far out, go for 4 directions stations (NSWE), Japan's examples Shin-Yokohama station, the alternate city cluster it has developed into over decades, bypassing central Yokohama. Ditto Shin-Osaka, Shin-Kobe. Tokaido is hands down busiest line in Japan, using the suburban and newbuild stations just named as key stations.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 10:13 AM   #13013
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This isnt a "mistake" but a design compromise, and to alleviate pressure for expansion of Tokyo station due to lack of land. In China they go far out, go for 4 directions stations (NSWE), Japan's examples Shin-Yokohama station, the alternate city cluster it has developed into over decades, bypassing central Yokohama. Ditto Shin-Osaka, Shin-Kobe. Tokaido is hands down busiest line in Japan, using the suburban and newbuild stations just named as key stations.
Shin-Yokohama was newbuild station but it was not built nowhere. It was built on an existing branch line section between existing stations.
Shin-Osaka was built in suburbs, but on the mainline suburban section between existing station.

Counting the Tokaido Shinkanssen stations:
  1. Tokyo - old central city station
  2. Shinagawa - old suburban station
  3. Shin-Yokohama - newbuilt station on an old suburban branch line
  4. Odawara - old central city station
  5. Atami - old central city station
  6. Mishima - old central city station
  7. Shin-Fuji - new rural station, the only Tokaido Shinkansen station not shared by zairaisen
  8. Shizuoka - old central city station
  9. Kakegawa - old central city station
  10. Hamamatsu - old central city station
  11. Toyohashi - old central city station
  12. Mikawa-Anjo - new rural station at old mainline crossing
  13. Nagoya - old central city station
  14. Gifu-Hashima - new rural station
  15. Maibara - old central city station
  16. Kyoto - old central city station
  17. Shin-Osaka - new suburban station on old mainline
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Old December 9th, 2019, 06:38 PM   #13014
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Originally Posted by General Huo View Post
Chinese cities are not like Mumbai. Chinese cities usually plan ahead the transportation systems when build new HSR station. For example, Nanjing South Railway Station has more metro lines than its city center Xinjiekou, although Xinjiekou has more metro traffic. And Chinese mega cities want to de-congest theirs old city centers. The new HSR stations quickly become new city centers like Nanjing South Station. And residents can choose convenient stations for their travel, like residents in south Nanjing prefer Nanjing South Station, and residents in north Nanjing prefer old Nanjing railway station. Both stations have HSR trains to Shanghai, both Shanghai Station and Hongqiao Station.

Chinese HSR stations work well for China, it doesn't need to be like other nations, period.
there are lot of people complaining that some stations are too far. especailly they had similar HSR in old stations. Xianyang for example built the station on the far east side. Mega cities such as Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing won't be able to change their historical centers. They need multi centers and more stations to server the whole population. There are some changes after the center government called for more passenger friendly in or near city center stations.

BTW, the plan and design of the stations are mainly up to local governments. Sometimes they asked to change the profession design, not necessary for better.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 07:11 PM   #13015
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Originally Posted by Absurdity View Post
Thing is, Huo is right in that China's administrative cities are vast spatially (like tiny euro nations) and to get the system up and running in the speed it has, they need to avoid huge headaches of the city center, small land plots (compare India still trying to acquire land & angry NIMBY residents), "reach your arm to touch neighbor cross the street" crushing density, under and above ground utility hell and safety buffer hell. More than healthy ridership numbers (@2.2 bln/yr) vindicate their strategy.

Japan did the same by running lines to terminate at Ueno station (N) and Shinagawa (S) for decades before finally building out to go on to Tokyo station.

This isnt a "mistake" but a design compromise, and to alleviate pressure for expansion of Tokyo station due to lack of land. In China they go far out, go for 4 directions stations (NSWE), Japan's examples Shin-Yokohama station, the alternate city cluster it has developed into over decades, bypassing central Yokohama. Ditto Shin-Osaka, Shin-Kobe. Tokaido is hands down busiest line in Japan, using the suburban and newbuild stations just named as key stations.
China is a bit similar to France. They bypass many smaller cities because they line aliment. But most end of line centers such as Beijing, they try to bring in the HSR into center stations. The difference is China didn't build many connection line because their plan is to leave the legacy line for freight and some long distance trains only. Those stations are normally small compare to European cities. Guangzhou station for example only has 7 platforms. China didn't have a railway booming back in 20 century. Before the HSR, Chinese railway was focusing mainly on freight. So their original plan for HSR is mainly an independent system from legacy system. The master plan had a concept that most province capital cities will be within 8 hour HSR circle from Beijing. So it was better not to detour into city center for most of pass by cities. Beijing to Guangzhou HSR only passes Shijiazhuang city center by a tunnel.

In Japan, the legacy lines are used as feeder for HSR. they have to make the connection as smooth as possible. Osaka station is a bit too south from the main aliment so they had to build a new station. Yokohama city is not on the line but they built a commuter line into the station so people can use the connection.
As for China, there was no concept of legacy line for commuter. Metro is the connection railway in this case.
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Old December 10th, 2019, 04:09 AM   #13016
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Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR and Guangzhou-Shanwei HSR are under construction now. Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR will open in 2021. It connects to Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR which will open this year. Guangzhou-Shanwei HSR will open in 2023 and it connects the Xiamen-Shenzhen HSR which is under construction too.

Some construction pictures of these two lines in Huizhou.
http://www.sohu.com/a/357880065_704473

East River (branch of Pearl River, 东江) bridge of Ganzhou-Shenzhen HSR








East River (branch of Pearl River, 东江) bridge of Guangzhou-Shanwei HSR
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Old December 10th, 2019, 07:54 AM   #13017
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China is a bit similar to France. They bypass many smaller cities because they line aliment. But most end of line centers such as Beijing, they try to bring in the HSR into center stations. The difference is China didn't build many connection line because their plan is to leave the legacy line for freight and some long distance trains only. Those stations are normally small compare to European cities. Guangzhou station for example only has 7 platforms. China didn't have a railway booming back in 20 century. Before the HSR, Chinese railway was focusing mainly on freight. So their original plan for HSR is mainly an independent system from legacy system. The master plan had a concept that most province capital cities will be within 8 hour HSR circle from Beijing. So it was better not to detour into city center for most of pass by cities. Beijing to Guangzhou HSR only passes Shijiazhuang city center by a tunnel.

In Japan, the legacy lines are used as feeder for HSR. they have to make the connection as smooth as possible. Osaka station is a bit too south from the main aliment so they had to build a new station. Yokohama city is not on the line but they built a commuter line into the station so people can use the connection.
No, they did not build the line to Shin-Yokohama. The branch line was in place before, but lightly used. So they just built a new station at the crossing, and increased the traffic volumes at the branch.

I see that at many Shinkansen stations, Shinkansen and zairaisen are at different level. At Shin-Osaka, the old mainline is at ground level, with 8 track and 4 platfrms. And Shinkansen crosses overhead, with another 8 tracks and 5 platforms.
Does China have any legacy stations which HSR uses at a different level?
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Old December 10th, 2019, 07:08 PM   #13018
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No, they did not build the line to Shin-Yokohama. The branch line was in place before, but lightly used. So they just built a new station at the crossing, and increased the traffic volumes at the branch.

I see that at many Shinkansen stations, Shinkansen and zairaisen are at different level. At Shin-Osaka, the old mainline is at ground level, with 8 track and 4 platfrms. And Shinkansen crosses overhead, with another 8 tracks and 5 platforms.
Does China have any legacy stations which HSR uses at a different level?
yes. Shangrao, Ezhou, Meishan, Nanjing south.
Shangrao has one legacy line and one HSR line on the ground and another HSR line on the top.
Guangzhou south has at least two regional lines underground.
Beijing Fengtai will be two levels too, legacy lines on the ground and HSR on the top.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 06:02 AM   #13019
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Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR



























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Old December 11th, 2019, 06:53 AM   #13020
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27 railway tunnels that are over 10 km open to traffic just in 2019 alone (2 over 20 km). There are 181 railroad tunnels which over 10 km opened in China in total, and 35 such tunnels will put into use in 2020.

The new tunnel (>10km) in 2019 are

Wuhan-Shiyan HSR (汉十高速线) has 1
1) Yujiashan Tunnel (余家山隧道) 10,125 m (6.29 mile) single-bore-double-track

Meizhou-Shantou HSR (梅汕客运线) has 1
2) Fengshun Tunnel (丰顺隧道) 14,407 m(8.95 mile)single-bore-double-track

Chengdu-Kunming New Line YongGuang Section (成昆线永广段) has 3, all in Yunnan
3) Jiaozishan Tunnel (骄子山隧道) 13,406m(8.33 mile)single-bore-double-track
4) Tuoan Tunnel (妥安隧道) 13,371m(8.31 mile)single-bore-double-track
5) Mingtai Tunnel (民太隧道) 11,342m(7.05 mile)single-bore-double-track

HaoJi Heavy-Haul Railroad (浩吉线) has 10
6) Xiaoshan Tunnel (崤山隧道) 22,771m(14.15 mile)double-bore-single-track
7) Zhongtiaoshan Tunnel (中条山隧道) 18,410m(11.44 mile)double-bore-single-track
8) Xi'anling Tunnel (西安岭隧道) 18,069m(11.23 mile)double-bore-single-track
9) Jiyi Tunnel (集义隧道) 15,417m(9.58mile) single-bore-double-track
10) Jiulingshan Tunnel (九岭山隧道) 15,371m(9.55 mile)single-bore-double-track
11) Dazhongshan Tunnel (大中山隧道) 14,533m(9.03 mile)single-bore-double-track
12) Ruyi Tunnel (如意隧道) 11,920m(7.41 mile)single-bore-double-track
13) Yangshan Tunnel (阳山隧道) 11,668m(7.25 mile) single-bore-double-track
14) Duanjiaping Tunnel (段家坪隧道) 10,723m(6.66 miles)single-bore-double-track
15) Lianyunshan Tunnel (连云山隧道) 10,702m(6.65 miles)single-bore-single-track

Junggar-Shuozhou Railway (准朔线) has 3
16) Liulangshan Tunnel (六狼山隧道) 15,175m(9.43 miles)single-bore-single-track
17) Wolongshan Tunnel (卧龙山隧道) 11,921m(7.41 miles)single-bore-single-track
18) Yingyaoshan Tunnel (鹰鹞山隧道) 11,572m(7.19 miles)single-bore-single-track

Dunhuang-Golmud Railway (敦格线) has 1
19) Dangjinshan Tunnel (当金山隧道) 20,125m(12.51 miles) single-bore-single-track

Guangzhou-Shenzhen Intercity Railway (穗深城际线) has 1
20) Taiping Tunnel (太平隧道) 14,490m(9.00 miles)double-bore-single-track

Nanchang-Ganzhou HSR (昌赣高速线) has 2
21) Wan'an Tunnel (万安隧道) 13,928m(8.65 miles) single-bore-double-track
22) Xingguo Tunnel (兴国隧道) 10,345m(6.43 miles) single-bore-double-track

Datong-Zhangjiakou HSR (大张客专线) has 1
23) Daliangshan Tunnel (大梁山隧道) 13,395m(8.32 miles) single-bore-double-track

Beijing-Zhangjiakou HSR (京张高速线) has 2
24) Zhengpantai Tunnel (正盘台隧道) 12,974m(8.06 miles) single-bore-double-track
25) New Badaling Tunnel (新八达岭隧道) 12,010m(7.46 miles) single-bore-double-track

Zhuhai Airport Line (珠机城际线) has 1
26) Hengqing Tunnel (横琴隧道) 12,585m(7.82 miles) double-bore-single-track

Yangpingguan-Ankang 2nd Line (阳安铁路复线) has 1
27) Jiangjiashan Tunnel (蒋家山隧道) 10,363m(6.44 miles) double-bore-single-track
__________________
“匈奴未灭,无以家为也!” 汉冠军侯景桓侯骠骑大将军大司马霍去病

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